The Jussie Smollett Affair

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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
I don't think their school should have allowed them to wear MAGA hats, but the evidence suggests they were verbally harassed by extremists before the video ran.

A better point is that the MAGA hat video is nothing like this at all. All that was on that video was a kid smirking at a native American beating a drum. Here, we have someone punching someone else after just learning the person is gay. It's a terrible analogy.
I realize the events are not related, but he (and some1) invoked this incident.

Those kids, regardless of how they were addressed by other groups responded with incredible disrespect to people they had no cause to show such disrespect. I didn't know there were still folks who took the kids side on that one. I thought all the debunking had actually laid the facts bare that they were shitty kids who were improperly chaperoned and regardless of the yelling of the street yellers, those kids were not victims of anything, and a few were outright little shits.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Wait... sorry, you are on the side of the Covington kids? You think their behavior was appropriate and reasonable given the context?

The claim was that the kids engaged the old guy. That the kids went up to him and then prevented the man from leaving. That was not true once we got more of the story.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,235
136
I realize the events are not related, but he (and some1) invoked this incident.

Those kids, regardless of how they were addressed by other groups responded with incredible disrespect to people they had no cause to show such disrespect. I didn't know there were still folks who took the kids side on that one. I thought all the debunking had actually laid the facts bare that they were shitty kids who were improperly chaperoned and regardless of the yelling of the street yellers, those kids were not victims of anything, and a few were outright little shits.
Seriously. What is wrong with you?

 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Wow. You really swallow it whole, eh?

Dude, the media and pretty much everyone else including all the libs who initially believed this have backed off. You're late.

I personally never understood it from day one. All that initial video shows is a kid wearing a MAGA hat smirking at an elderly native American banging a drum. The rest was in people's imaginations. Like a pscyh assessment where you're shown a picture and asked to use your imagination to create a story based on it. THAT video cried out for context.
 
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jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Dude, the media and pretty much everyone else including all the libs who initially believed this have backed off. You're late.

I personally never understood it from day one. All that initial video shows is a kid wearing a MAGA hat smirking at an elderly native American banging a drum. The rest was in people's imaginations. Like a pscyh assessment where you're shown a picture and asked to use your imagination to create a story based on it. THAT video cried out for context.
Weird. I saw a kid standing in the way of people greatly his senior, something I was raised never to do in *gasp!* Catholic school.

And as it was at the time of the event, my ire is directed totally at the people who were supposed to be chaperoning these kids, because how they weren't standing in between their kids and everyone else is just flatly irresponsible.

It's clear everyone has settled their opinions on that matter and now it's another case of white victims.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Fair enough. We can discuss it further if or when you see the video.

I can't tell if he tried to get the guy or knock the phone out of his hand.

For sure he asks if the guy is gay and then swings, and, I'll grant you that I think it's likely due to this guy being gay, but I can't say from that clip.

I have been in a situation where a guy called another guy gay, which upset the person called gay. He thought the guy was being bigoted. The reality was that he was gay too and was trying to joke around. Turned out he knew the guy through a friend and so he knew he was gay. It got cleared up.

Now, I don't think that specifically happened here, but, I can think of scenarios where what I just saw could be misleading. I think it's quite possible that he made a comment about the guy being gay and then was confronted. Things escalated and the phone was pulled out.

So is it possible and likely, yes. Do I have enough to take a stance, no.

But, that is not the issue. You think their skepticism is really them hiding their bigotry. We can't tell by someone's actions. I'm not bigoted, and I'm taking a similar position.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I can't tell if he tried to get the guy or knock the phone out of his hand.

For sure he asks if the guy is gay and then swings, and, I'll grant you that I think it's likely due to this guy being gay, but I can't say from that clip.

Yes, it's "likely." That is the correct word, and that is what I've been saying. As a matter of probability, when someone asks someone else if they are gay, then here's a yes answer, then immediately takes a swing at them, it's likely that the motive was homophobic. Occam's razor. It isn't impossible for it to be otherwise, but scenarios where the punch has nothing to do with his gayness are difficult to see here.

I have been in a situation where a guy called another guy gay, which upset the person called gay. He thought the guy was being bigoted. The reality was that he was gay too and was trying to joke around. Turned out he knew the guy through a friend and so he knew he was gay. It got cleared up.

With one very slight difference. The guy saying the other guy was gay didn't punch him, did he? See, there's room for ambiguity when someone merely says you're gay. Not as much when someone asks if you're gay, then assaults you after you verify that you are.

Now, I don't think that specifically happened here, but, I can think of scenarios where what I just saw could be misleading. I think it's quite possible that he made a comment about the guy being gay and then was confronted. Things escalated and the phone was pulled out.

So is it possible and likely, yes. Do I have enough to take a stance, no.

But, that is not the issue. You think their skepticism is really them hiding their bigotry. We can't tell by someone's actions. I'm not bigoted, and I'm taking a similar position.

Bigotry? Not sure. Political motive? Absolutely. I quoted Someone saying he's skeptical because "loony leftists" make these kinds of allegations all the time. That is skepticism based on the political identity of the accuser. He couldn't have been more clear.

And he's right there in that thread saying, "didn't you learn anything from the MAGA hat or Smollett's cases?" Isn't that exactly what we said would be the result of the Smollett case? That they'd use it to justify skepticism of other cases even where the facts are much more persuasive than they were in the Smollett case.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Yes, it's "likely." That is the correct word, and that is what I've been saying. As a matter of probability, when someone asks someone else if they are gay, then here's a yes answer, then immediately takes a swing at them, it's likely that the motive was homophobic. Occam's razor. It isn't impossible for it to be otherwise, but scenarios where the punch has nothing to do with his gayness are difficult to see here.

I'm still not sure if its a punch or a slap at the phone. The differences is the intent to harm the person or the phone. That has nothing to do with the possible bigotry.

With one very slight difference. The guy saying the other guy was gay didn't punch him, did he? See, there's room for ambiguity when someone merely says you're gay. Not as much when someone asks if you're gay, then assaults you after you verify that you are.

No, he did not attempt to hit him, but, it did get heated pretty quickly. Had it not stopped it easily could have turned physical.

Bigotry? Not sure. Political motive? Absolutely. I quoted Someone saying he's skeptical because "loony leftists" make these kinds of allegations all the time. That is skepticism based on the political identity of the accuser. He couldn't have been more clear.

To me, what that says is that because there have been false accusations that he is tainted and not willing to just believe.

And he's right there in that thread saying, "didn't you learn anything from the MAGA hat or Smollett's cases?" Isn't that exactly what we said would be the result of the Smollett case? That they'd use it to justify skepticism of other cases even where the facts are much more persuasive than they were in the Smollett case.

It seems reasonable to learn from past events. We just learned about this incident, and details are completely one sided, as well as sparse. That is the reason I would not take a stance here.

What I see is logically consistent from him. Now, to be logically consistent for me, I would say that my perception of him being consistent does not prove or disprove him being biased or bigoted. What I can say is that from his actions I would not be willing to give a motive to him in terms of what we have discussed.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Seriously. What is wrong with you?



Love it. A bunch of young non-blinded kids wearing MAGA hats fighting hate and racism. #redpill

And the media clips. I don't know how anyone can watch these liberal slanted tabloids that pretend to be news and think they're getting anything of value.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I'm still not sure if its a punch or a slap at the phone. The differences is the intent to harm the person or the phone. That has nothing to do with the possible bigotry.



No, he did not attempt to hit him, but, it did get heated pretty quickly. Had it not stopped it easily could have turned physical.

The victim says it was a punch, which hit him in his right shoulder. He also says that afterwards he shoved a female friend of his, then pulled a knife on them.

Importantly, this was on a public street with multiple witnesses, specifically right outside a bar in downtown SLC. I seriously doubt he's just making all that up. He also admits he wasn't injured which tends to bolster his credibility further.



To me, what that says is that because there have been false accusations that he is tainted and not willing to just believe.



It seems reasonable to learn from past events. We just learned about this incident, and details are completely one sided, as well as sparse. That is the reason I would not take a stance here.

What I see is logically consistent from him. Now, to be logically consistent for me, I would say that my perception of him being consistent does not prove or disprove him being biased or bigoted. What I can say is that from his actions I would not be willing to give a motive to him in terms of what we have discussed.

Nope, Smollett making something up has nothing to do with whether another person is making something up. That's absurd. Unless you subscribe to some notion that a member of one "tribe" making something up means we should be skeptical of every allegation from the same tribe. Look, the Jew lied! We must now be skeptical of everything any Jew says. Whatever else that is, it is completely illogical.

If anything, the publicity surrounding Smollett and the trouble he is in would be a disincentive for others to fabricate this sort of thing, especially in the short run. Otherwise, I don't see any relationship between the two, nor do I understand how one person's credibility affects the credibility of another just because the two both happen to be gay and/or liberal.

Like I said before, any allegation of anything can be fake. Doesn't matter what it is. You act as if a case like Smollett tells us something we didn't know - that a hate crime allegation might be fake just like anything could be, and now we should all have heightened skepticism of all such allegations. No, what the Smollett case says is to call each case on its own facts and don't assume it's true or false based on your political leanings.

This case doesn't have the same facts as the Smollett case, not even close. You should be his lawyer and argue to the jury that "Jussie Smollett" makes it more likely the victim is lying here. I'm sure that will go over really well.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I agree she's not handling the situation well. Politicians in general really need to learn when it's time to admit they screwed up. People will respect them more if they do.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,735
28,908
136
I agree she's not handling the situation well. Politicians in general really need to learn when it's time to admit they screwed up. People will respect them more if they do.
I fond it ironic to criticize a politician for believing some who lied vs believing and supporting someone who actually makes up the lies.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I fond it ironic to criticize a politician for believing some who lied vs believing and supporting someone who actually makes up the lies.

Believing Smollett initially without independent evidence to support his claim was imprudent in my opinion, but is a pardonable mistake. You yourself are now accepting that Smollett is a fraud. Harris was awkward and a lot cagier about it when asked.

She and Booker have both come out and said to wait for the investigation to conclude. Which would have been a prudent thing to say, five days ago. Not so today, and I think you know this as you've acknowledged yourself that the facts are difficult to dispute here. Initially she called it a modern day lynching instead of saying let's wait and see what the police conclude. Now that the evidence against Smollett is damning, she says let's wait and see. She's behind everyone else on the facts here and the reason is she doesn't want to admit she was initially wrong to just assume what he said was true.

She, like most pols, is loath to ever admit she was wrong. In fact, I bet she would never say a thing about it again if isn't ever asked again. I just wish these pols would be willing to say that they make mistakes. I don't know about you, but I personally would respect them a lot more if they did.
 
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