The Jussie Smollett Affair

[blackangst1]

You seem to be pretending to believe in absolutes when it suits you. It's clearly a continuum and one can't avoid arguing over specific cases, you can't make absolute claims that nobody ever has moral responsibility for the effect of their words. I don't believe you hold that stance consistently (I could think up hypothetical examples where I bet you would react differently, but they would all be in poor taste, so I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader).

If you stir someone up to hate someone else, people can perceive you has having a moral responsibility if they act on that hate. Whether they are right or wrong in that perception is going to be debatable, and people might disagree, but you can't get away from it by claiming its absolutely never the case.

My point is whether or not someone is "inspired" by something someone else, POTUS or not, says, the responsibility of their actions lies 100% with the person or poeple who did the bad thing. Thats why I said who cares. Its not Trumps fault. His intention wasnt to make people do stupid things.

 

[woolfe9998]

This conversation makes me think of that Seinfeld episode ("I think he converted just for the jokes").

Not really picking an argument, but surely there have got to be different attitudes to converts (not just to Judaism, to almost anything), especially recent ones, than those who were born into something? Isn't that entirely inevitable and understandable to a degree?

Even on here I've seen people comment on other people's post-counts and join-dates.

There must be somewhere among some Jews, but I know a ton of them and if they're thinking anything, they aren't saying it. Heck, my mother is non-Jewish and she's accepted in Jewish social circles. Even after my father passed, she still plays mah jong with all the old Jewish ladies. She was also with us for every religious service I went to as a child.

Most American Jews - those who are not orthodox - have liberal, tolerant attitudes. At least that's been my experience.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Hes not Jewish. His mother was not jewish.

Maybe he converted?

 

[woolfe9998]

I went to a pizza place not that far from my house and they laughed at me when I asked for a pepperoni slice. I live pretty close to one of the largest concentrations of ultra orthodox in the world outside of Israel. Those guys are absolutely fucking insane.

There's a small sect of ultra-orthodox who don't believe in the modern state of Israel for some biblical reason. Some of them live there. They'll do things like throw rocks at women who don't have their arms and legs fully covered. Anyone who takes these magical beliefs so seriously is totally beyond me.

 

[realibrad]

There's a small sect of ultra-orthodox who don't believe in the modern state of Israel for some biblical reason. Some of them live there. They'll do things like throw rocks at women who don't have their arms and legs fully covered. Anyone who takes these magical beliefs so seriously is totally beyond me.

Goy.

 

[fskimospy]

My point is whether or not someone is "inspired" by something someone else, POTUS or not, says, the responsibility of their actions lies 100% with the person or poeple who did the bad thing. Thats why I said who cares. Its not Trumps fault. His intention wasnt to make people do stupid things.

I think it's pretty clear his intentions are to stoke racial conflict more generally because it appeals to his base and he believes it benefits him politically. It's not like he's accidentally stoking this sort of hatred and things like this are a reasonable consequence of that. It's not like he's accidentally stoking racial conflict or whatever.

 

[fskimospy]

There's a small sect of ultra-orthodox who don't believe in the modern state of Israel for some biblical reason. Some of them live there. They'll do things like throw rocks at women who don't have their arms and legs fully covered. Anyone who takes these magical beliefs so seriously is totally beyond me.

Yeah, I remember seeing something shortly after I moved to NYC where there were ultra orthodox protesting both for and against the state of Israel and it was super confusing.

 

[realibrad]

Yeah, I remember seeing something shortly after I moved to NYC where there were ultra orthodox protesting both for and against the state of Israel and it was super confusing.

Remember the baby that died from herpes? Remember how the baby got herpes?

 

[UglyCasanova]

https://www.apnews.com/499db3d5b9e84053aff9f391fe7f514a

Still no video of it

 

[kage69]

You misunderstand. Blatant acts of KKK style racial violence are not common there. There's a reason: A practicing KKK member (or someone with similar beliefs) probably would not choose to live in Chicago.

Yes, sorry my bad, on the KKK style violence we agree, that is definitely not a common theme in downtown Chicago.

 

[fskimospy]

Remember the baby that died from herpes? Remember how the baby got herpes?

I do, and it’s pretty gnarly. Even worse, the city still does very little to ensure it doesn’t keep happening.

To say I am not a fan of the ultra orthodox would be an understatement. They display a lot of the characteristics of a cult IMO.

 

[realibrad]

I do, and it’s pretty gnarly. Even worse, the city still does very little to ensure it doesn’t keep happening.

To say I am not a fan of the ultra orthodox would be an understatement. They display a lot of the characteristics of a cult IMO.

Agreed. Just about any religious group that is orthodox starts looking like a cult to me.

 

[UglyCasanova]

How did the baby get herpes ?

 

[realibrad]

How did the baby get herpes ?

Guy thought the baby was a bagpipe.

 

[realibrad]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-...l-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618

Here is an article on it.

 

[Vic]

Were they wearing MAGA hats or something?

In fact, the Neo-Nazis were wearing MAGA hats at Charlottesville.

 

[UglyCasanova]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-...l-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618

Here is an article on it.

Holy shit

 

[Ichinisan]

...

Cities like Chicago can be violent. Plan accordingly when visiting such places.

Pretty sure this kind of violence is not the norm for Chicago (or anywhere).

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. This is a city with a colorful history of serial murderers, massacres, race riots and a gang problem. In fact, I'd say this attack was relatively tame compared to stuff that can unnerve cops and first responders. The political angle and it involving an popular actor is the only reason we're seeing it mentioned prominently. People on the receiving end of a gang initiation can be hurt worse, those receiving a gang payback decidedly worse, or dead.

You misunderstand. Blatant acts of KKK style racial violence are not common there. There's a reason: A practicing KKK member (or someone with similar beliefs) probably would not choose to live in Chicago.

Really?

"A practicing KKK member (or someone with similar beliefs) probably would not choose to live in Chicago."

Well I guess I should have said "most would not choose..."

A white guy explains the Tinley Park KKK flier (Article dated 7/24/2018, btw)
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/s...kk-flier-racism-ku-klux-klan-white-supremacy/


KKK fliers left outside homes in Tinley Park
https://wgntv.com/2018/07/26/kkk-fliers-left-outside-tinley-park-homes/

1. From what I can tell, "Tinley Park" isn't "Chicago." I guess it's part of the greater metro area. Like saying my town is "Atlanta."

2. Is this "the norm" for Tinley Park?

3. You're equating KKK "white pride isn't racist" flyers with the real physical violence that happened to the actor from Empire. REALLY? Is it necessary to arm yourself to protect against paper flyers?

When Chicago welcomed KKK
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-kkk-chicago-flashback-0125-20150123-story.html

Kinda silly to bring up the 1920s.

How Many KKK Chapters Are In Your Area?
Chicago: Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, United Northern and Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan

https://chicagodefender.com/2013/06/18/how-many-kkk-chapters-are-in-your-area/

I'm supposed to be surprised that there's a chapter in a major metropolis / population center?

I said that kind of KKK racial violence is not "the norm" and it's silly to expect Chicago to be a hotbed for it.

Try again?

u

 

[Vic]

Well, now I guess we know who's never seen the Blue Brothers.

 

[Ichinisan]

In fact, the Neo-Nazis were wearing MAGA hats at Charlottesville.

I'm sure they were wearing clothes too.

All clothes are racist.

I'm sure they eat food too. ...

I will always loathe Mr. Trump. His presidency has been exactly the dumpster fire I expected. Still, wearing "MAGA" hats and shirts doesn't mean Trump endorses every person or group that wears it. It's counter-productive to imply that. My issue with "MAGA" is that it shows support for Trump.

 

[Vic]

I'm sure they were wearing clothes too.

All clothes are racist.

I'm sure they eat food too.

I will always loathe Mr. Trump and his presidency has been every bit the dumpster fire I expected it to be. "MAGA" doesn't mean Trump endorses every person or group that wears the slogan. It's counter-productive to claim that it does. My issue with "MAGA" is that it shows support for Trump.

Here's a video that shows some Neo-Nazi leader giving a speech, wearing a MAGA hat and with some "National Socialists" banner behind him, talking about how much he loves Trump, and how Trump supports what best for the country, their cause against the Jews, etc etc.
And when Trump was asked about this, what did he say except that there's very fine people on both sides.
It's not an exaggeration. Deal with it.

 

[UglyCasanova]

From the AP article

After the attack, Smollett returned to his apartment, and his manager called police from there about 40 minutes later, Guglielmi said. When officers arrived, the actor had cuts and scrapes on his face and the rope around his neck that he said had been put there by his assailant, he said. The 36-year-old later went to Northwestern Memorial Hospital after police advised him to do so.​

​

Huh? After the attack he went back home and sat around for 40 minutes until his manager called the police and he kept the noose on the whole time?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

From the AP article

After the attack, Smollett returned to his apartment, and his manager called police from there about 40 minutes later, Guglielmi said. When officers arrived, the actor had cuts and scrapes on his face and the rope around his neck that he said had been put there by his assailant, he said. The 36-year-old later went to Northwestern Memorial Hospital after police advised him to do so.​

​

Huh? After the attack he went back home and sat around for 40 minutes until his manager called the police and he kept the noose on the whole time?

Yeah, I read that too - I thought the original article specifically said he went directly to the hospital.

 

[pmv]

There must be somewhere among some Jews, but I know a ton of them and if they're thinking anything, they aren't saying it. Heck, my mother is non-Jewish and she's accepted in Jewish social circles. Even after my father passed, she still plays mah jong with all the old Jewish ladies. She was also with us for every religious service I went to as a child.

Most American Jews - those who are not orthodox - have liberal, tolerant attitudes. At least that's been my experience.

Again, I don't mean to restrict this to Jews. I have heard, incidentally, a lot of discussion of the quite complicated attitudes to converts you can get among Muslims (especially where race comes into it as well). But I'm not talking of everyday social behavior, I think the difference only becomes an issue if a convert does certain things. The different attitude is latent, not necessarily ever to become relevant.

Seems to me that (again, across many groups) as a recent convert you just lack 'standing' to take certain standpoints or do certain things, things that someone with a more long-established identity might get away with.

That Sienfeld episode being an example - the complaint there being about a convert being far too quick to start to start telling Jewish jokes and saying "I can say it because I'm Jewish".

Another example, come to think of it, might be Sanders not being a long-standing Democrat clearly being present in the mind of some of his opponents in that party.

 

[UglyCasanova]

CNN has a live update page on it like it’s a damned hurricane or something

https://www.cnn.com/entertainment/live-news/jussie-smollett-attack/index.html