The Legitimacy of War

daveshel

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
5,453
2
81
The notion of war being a metered response, or anything less than a full-out effort to annihilate an enemy, is one that is relatively new to the world. Maybe it began back of the days of the big empires; when the Romans thought it was just too expensive to worry too much about small populations far away. Maybe it was a factor in the American Revolution.

In the 19th century, The Geneva and Hague Conventions tried to institutionalize the limitation of and response to collateral damage and the effects of war on civilian populations. Following the unprecedented carnage of World War One, the League of Nations was started as a sort of community of effort to promote peace, or at least limit the damage of war. By the time the United Nations was formed in 1945, the rules had become pretty clear. Nations had to follow the rules when they went to war. They couldn't attach each other willy-nilly; they had to have formal declarations and had to exercise restraint where it came to civilian populations.

The superpowers that emerged after World War Two found these rules cumbersome, and found ways to engage enemies that fell under the radar. Covert war was often as grizzly as big wars, but was mostly smaller in scale, and disinformation strategies made it so nobody could even figure out who the good guys were. But, what had developed, at least in theory, was a framework for determining the legitimacy of war.

The first big test of this theoretical framework was the establishment of Israel. Israel was the poster child for the brand new UN, and the child grew up on the moral high ground while the world looked on sympathetically.

Fast forward past the 1976 and 1973 wars and The Camp David Accords. The United States has a black eye because of its decade of quagmire in Viet Nam, and things are coming to light about the CIA's involvement in Central America and elsewhere. After Watergate, nobody was too surprised by much of anything. The Iran Contra hearings came and went, and it was getting harder to find moral high ground.

So along comes a new generation of leaders in Israel, and they are more hawkish and imperial, and it starts getting harder to remember that they are on the moral high ground. Elsewhere in the world, it begins to look like the Age of Aquarius and the Berlin Wall falls and the Soviet Union breaks up. Covert wars have fallen out of favor, but new wars result as power vacuums and instability become the wake of the departing Soviet governments. And these are no-holds-barred wars fought by forces not recognized by the international community, and who do not follow the rules.

By the time the 21st century rolls around, the international community has become powerless and its rules of warfare have become meaningless. The United States just blows off the UN and the rules and invades Iraq, killing civilians, destroying the infrastructure, engaging in torture, rape and murder. All justified to a thin majority who supports it in the name of terror.

Now Israel and Hezbollah are pounding the crap out of each other in what could build into a conflagration of biblical proportions, and I'm looking for that moral high ground. Civilians are getting killed on both sides. This morning the IDF suffered a catastrophic success that killed 37 children in Qana.

I'm not finding moral high ground here. I'm not seeing legitimate warfare with the appropriate restraints and protections of civilian populations in Iraq. But I guess I knew all along that I wouldn't. I'm now quite as old as the UN, but I'm approaching my half century mark. And from Viet Nam to Munich and hostages and hijackings to WMDs and preemptive strikes, I can see that there is no such thing as legitimate war. There is no moral high ground.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
3
81
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

You don't understand what it means to have good morals. The behavior of others doesn't not change what it means to be moral.

Hezbollah sux. The launching of rockets into Israel is an intolerable offense. But how many people died from those sporadic rocket attacks in June, May, April . . . how about all of 2005? In essence, the real reason for the offensive was the abduction of two IDF soldiers. Israel didn't want to trade prisoners at a 1:100 ratio or deal with Hezbollah recycling this method yet again. So instead of face the indignation of negotiating with Hezbollah, Israel launched an offensive against the entire nation of Lebanon.

But let's be honest. The rules are war are always made by people that START wars . . . not the ones that die in them. So the fact that differences of perspective exist between US/Al Qaeda or Israel/Hezbollah-Hama is irrelevant.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Israeli is in no way complying with the Geneva convention in Gaza... You are justifyig Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel started it.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
You don't understand what it means to have good morals. The behavior of others doesn't not change what it means to be moral.

Morals are great and very important but only valid in warfare when the enemy your are fighting subscribes to the same moral code of warfare you subscribe too.......high morals aren't going to do you squat when you are dead. Poeple like you condemn Hezbollah with nothing but hollow words, all the while expecting Israel to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs to make you feel all warm inside. You won't ask the same of Hezbollah because they are mere animals that would ignore you anyway. If people dying are so important to you then why don't you get involved in a movement that puts pressure on the terrorists to stop the killing....they are the source. Israel and the US would love nothing more than to live in peace without all the BS. I realize you would never attempt this because not only is it too much effort but it is also futile considering who is the enemy to peace in this situation. You would rather sit behind your computer supporting the status quo to keep your bleeding heart from oozing.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.

Its not recognized by the UN. /discussion.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

Perhaps you would enjoy watching your countrymen die for morals, instead of allowed your woman, children and familly to live, because your army chose to do its job, protect you.
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
A metered response? There are many ways to respond to agression--Just consider this discussion in the context of the way the US has responded post 9/11

War, should always be the absolute last resource. Even beyond all measure of reasonable doubt.

Nothing makes me more ashamed to be a human being than the way War is treated --not as a last resource...Not even close--By Israel, the US, etc. etc.

We have not learned much, and wisdom is so far away from our experience. I am not hopefull it will ever reach us.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.

Its not recognized by the UN. /discussion.



Right, because they only occupy 10% of the seats in parliment, and of course the UN doesn't have any kind of anti-Israeli bias.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: fjord
A metered response? There are many ways to respond to agression--Just consider this discussion in the context of the way the US has responded post 9/11

War, should always be the absolute last resource. Even beyond all measure of reasonable doubt.

Nothing makes me more ashamed to be a human being than the way War is treated --not as a last resource...Not even close--By Israel, the US, etc. etc.

We have not learned much, and wisdom is so far away from our experience. I am not hopefull it will ever reach us.


Let's create a simple scenerio. There are two countries. Country A supports a group that blows up a building in country B. Neither country was at war. Country B (and all others) know that country A was responsible, but country A makes no admissions and makes no attempt to bring those responsible to justice. What is the appropriate response? Sure, you can impose economic sanctions, but what happens if they do it again? And the time after that?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
You don't understand what it means to have good morals. The behavior of others doesn't not change what it means to be moral.

Morals are great and very important but only valid in warfare when the enemy your are fighting subscribes to the same moral code of warfare you subscribe too.......high morals aren't going to do you squat when you are dead. Poeple like you condemn Hezbollah with nothing but hollow words, all the while expecting Israel to fight them with one hand tied behind their backs to make you feel all warm inside. You won't ask the same of Hezbollah because they are mere animals that would ignore you anyway. If people dying are so important to you then why don't you get involved in a movement that puts pressure on the terrorists to stop the killing....they are the source. Israel and the US would love nothing more than to live in peace without all the BS. I realize you would never attempt this because not only is it too much effort but it is also futile considering who is the enemy to peace in this situation. You would rather sit behind your computer supporting the status quo to keep your bleeding heart from oozing.

Again, regardless of where you draw your source of morality . . . it is NOT dependent on the behavior of others.

By your language it is clear you don't understand that the same evil intimations that drive your enemy . . . live within your soul. The dehumanization of the opposition has been used to justify all kinds of barbarism. It's an old tune.

Hezbollah exists b/c Israel invaded Lebanon and occupied it for nearly TWO decades.
Hamas exists b/c Israel invaded the West Bank and Gaza . . . still occupies the West Bank and recently laid waste to Gaza's civilian infrastructure.
Obviously, other events preceded the actions of Israel but fundamentally countries (just like individuals) are always responsible for what they do.

The US (at least under Bush) would love nothing more than being THE dominant, unchallenged world power capable of imposing its will upon any country for any reason. Curiously, we currently have minimal influence in this conflict . . . primarily due to bad Bush policy.

Personally, I give Israel more credit. I think they really would like to live in peace with their neighbors. Unfortunately, Israel got an inauspicious start (blame the UN), made a bunch of bad decisions (blame Israel), and the neighborhood sux (blame Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc).
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,017
8,054
136
Terrorism breeds on the idea that the world will condone it. Thus far we have proven them correct. A few ?rogue? actions by Israel and the USA to defeat terrorism have largely been looked down upon by their own people and the world.

Get ready for the day when government allows you to sniped or used as a human shield, because it?s just not worth it to stop those who do it.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?


How is what he said nazi like in anyway?

 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.

Its not recognized by the UN. /discussion.
Neither was the invasion of Iraq.

You have an interesting set of decison criteria.

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.

Its not recognized by the UN. /discussion.


Neither is Taiwan, would you consider Taiwan a country?
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.

Its not recognized by the UN. /discussion.


Neither is Taiwan, would you consider Taiwan a country?

No..even israel is an illegal country and my country does not recognize its legality. However since the UN recognizes it its bound to follow laws. Even Hezbollah is meant to follow laws. They are wrong but not more wrong than Israel or America supporting terrorism against the soviets back in the 80s. But clearly both sides say they are not targetting civilians while both sides say the other is. The irony is the fact that Israel with its ultra modern intelligence and precision guided bombs have killed more children and women.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

Perhaps you would enjoy watching your countrymen die for morals, instead of allowed your woman, children and familly to live, because your army chose to do its job, protect you.

Life without morals is not worth living.
 

Pacemaker

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2001
1,184
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

Perhaps you would enjoy watching your countrymen die for morals, instead of allowed your woman, children and familly to live, because your army chose to do its job, protect you.

Life without morals is not worth living.

So, when Germany accidently bombed london (the first time it was an accident) in WW2 and the British responded by ordering raids on nearly every German city who was taking the moral high ground?

If your enemy chooses a tactic in war whether it be gas or unrestricted sub warfare or unrestriced bombing, you have to make a response to that or you will lose the war. War is never a "good" or "pretty" or "honorable" thing, and those who choose to make it that way in the face of an enemy who won't will lose every time.

If you want examples of this I'll give you a few. The British in the American Revolution got shot at from behind cover and by people hidden. At the time this was considered to be "Dishonorable" and they continued to fight the way they thought was right and they lost. In the civil war Sherman basically burned all of the south's infrastructure and the south hated him for it, but wouldn't do it to the North, and they lost the war.

If you refuse to fight the war on your enemies terms, then you have no business fighting it at all. Not saying you have to become terrorists to fight them, but you do need a terrorist like strategy instead of marching in the tanks. All that will do is give them more targets and more supporters.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

not at all, but if your country doesn't buy into the geneva conventions then it doesn't apply. its a two way street. the past way to deal with soldiers commiting war crimes, shot on the spot. hezbollah deserves nothing more.

Hezbollah is not a country.

Incorrect in a way. Hezbollah controls a large part of Lebanon and is even a significant party within the Lebanese government.

Its not recognized by the UN. /discussion.


Neither is Taiwan, would you consider Taiwan a country?

No..even israel is an illegal country and my country does not recognize its legality. However since the UN recognizes it its bound to follow laws. Even Hezbollah is meant to follow laws. They are wrong but not more wrong than Israel or America supporting terrorism against the soviets back in the 80s. But clearly both sides say they are not targetting civilians while both sides say the other is. The irony is the fact that Israel with its ultra modern intelligence and precision guided bombs have killed more children and women.

That is because Israel takes care of its civilians and puts them all in bomb shelters where Lebannon and Hez give the civilians the finger and put them in known Hez strongholds to die.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu
The only time you can apply the rules of warfare is when both sides agree to them. When one side chooses not to, you're then left with the decision of how many of your own people are you willing to give up so that you can as closely as the enemy allows feasible stick to the rules. There's no moral highground to be found short of letting the enemy have their way with you, and when the enemy says stuff like death to everyone in your country it's hard to agree with them.

Your way of justifying 21st century nazism?

Perhaps you would enjoy watching your countrymen die for morals, instead of allowed your woman, children and familly to live, because your army chose to do its job, protect you.

Life without morals is not worth living.

It is night to be able to say such a thing when the right to say it has been provided by people who had to bomb entire villages to give you that freedom.

A quote from a few good man:

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The answer is quite simple...history has demonstrated on a number of occasions that the atrocities committed during war will elevate to the extent that both sides are willing to tolerate and accept.

When sovereign nations go to war, if one side is suffereing tremendous attrition within its civilian populations, it will ultimately yield...Germany and Japan both lost the will to fight during WW2 largely because of the toll a protracted war was taking on the civilian populace...although in Japan's case, it took the atom bomb to drive that point home.

However, 21st century warfare is quickly transforming into wars between sovereign nations and other political, ethnic, religious and cultural entities...these entities are not sovereign states, and don't seem to give a rat's ass about the people they are hurting in waging their little wars...even their own people.

There is no precedence for handling this kind of scenario...conventional armies do not have the force structure to contend with an enemy that hides amongst the civilian populace, and does not answer to any legitimate political authority.

The Romans, and other empires, handled such scenarios by simply eliminating the entire source population...wipe the enemy, and the population from which it comes, off the map...however, this concept is no longer practical or acceptable given the 20th century notion of universal human rights.

I don't think anyone has an answer for how to dislodge Hezbollah, and organizations like it, from the civilian populations at large.
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
7,912
0
76
The rules of war are in their enforcement a paradox. In the world of nations, if nation chooses to disregard the rules and begin warfare outside of the "rules of war", all nations adhereing to the law should in practice, engage the rogue state and force it back into the fold of the rules of war.

However all the engaging nations are forced to fight within the rules of law, and thereby are at an extreme disadvantage to their opponent. Such a disadvantage in fact that I don't believe a nation adhereing to the rules of war can ever hope to defeat an entrenched rogue nation who breaks the rules.

The problem gets even more complicated in that the rules of war themselves are impossible to follow 100% within the setting of an actual conflict. Accidental breaches are frequent, and earn the condemnation from within the citizenry of the country attempting to follow the law. Eventually once there have been enough breaches, the nation runs the risk of becoming a rogue state themselves... forcing them to withdraw from the war, and essentially handing victory to the rogue nation.

The rules of war are a great idea on paper... but in practice they are self-defeating.

-Max
 
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