The Lemon List

[dave_the_nerd]

Even though the article starts with this?"

"Colloquially known as “lemons,” these are vehicles with serious reliability concerns, either relating to one major issue, or a longer list of less severe problems.

For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons...."

Admitting that you're about to abuse a term doesn't absolve you of abuse.

If the methodology didn't seem suspect on its own merits, it'd be suspect because the reported rates of "lemons" are waaaaaay too low, for all manufacturers. Their only "out" is that their definition of "lemon" is nonexistent.

 

[PricklyPete]

Hence an appliance. You're looking for something that does a job and a Toyota does that. It's not a criticism. Lexus makes some of the nicest cars on the planet. They are also generally just about the most boring. If boring doesn't bother you, they're fantastic vehicles.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

OP, you seem too caught up in what others think of your purchase. Just enjoy the car you have and the qualities it has that makes you happy. Don’t seek our approval of your decision...that never works out well on the internet.

 

[bradly1101]

Exactly what I was trying to say.

OP, you seem too caught up in what others think of your purchase. Just enjoy the car you have and the qualities it has that makes you happy. Don’t seek our approval of your decision...that never works out well on the internet.

Ah. Please forgive my ignorance, I had never heard in all my years the word "appliance" used that way. I found this in the Urban Dictionary, and admit I take issue with statements like (hyperbole notwithstanding):

"More than often you have problems finding them in the lot after your Wall-Mart adventures because of their total lack of style and presence."

"Beige in a way that they lack anything to be desired and beige in a way everything is beige at your grandparents' house."

"People who drive them usually say they are trying to be "green" and they are doing their part in saving the planet, but the statement they are making is basically that they are too cheap to pay for fuel and that they don't really care about anything that's exciting in any way."

"Usually you find these people in these beige cars driving under the speed limit on the left lanes of the interstate right next to a semi clogging up traffic, totally oblivious of any fucking thing around them"

"But instead, you are a moron too for not realizing that these people are FUCKING DUMB and use their rear view mirror exclusively while waiting for the light to turn green, while they pop zits and pick their nose.
an appliance car can be linked to the following:
any 4 door toyota, any 4 door honda, geo, saturn, chevy aveo, hybrids, and oh my fucking god any scion that isn't the TC.

-Is that a fucking fridge on wheels, dude?
-Close, it's a scion."

It seems like the number of doors is related to the sin (although my Corolla only had 2 doors, and isn't a Lexus ES just a Camry you pay more for?). I know someone with an xB, others with Pruises. I realize now that liking them so much is detrimental to their reputations among car guys. Thank goodness it's not even a tacit, implied insult!

I obviously don't compare my choices like the guys who originally called out my cars as such; who would really care about that? I was just interested in the obvious Toyota hate, and why. Now I know.

 

[bradly1101]

It's odd to me that "appliance" seems to have replaced "practicality" and "frugality." Better to feel good about considering neither and take down those who do. Edit: referring to the Urban Dictionary listing.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Wow.

 

[PricklyPete]

Wow.

Really fascinating actually

 

[bradly1101]

Well, I talked to someone I look up to in my personal life about all this (my big brother - we had a visit last night). He agrees with you guys (who think of some cars as appliances), but went a step further, he called Toyotas soulless. I see where all this comes from, they're decidedly not exciting, and I agree with that. It's all my sensitivity. When I plunk down some dough on a car, I never expect any compliments on it, and I didn't buy it looking for attention. Words like understated, practical, and sensible would never be used, and I totally grok that, words like boring, a refrigerator on wheels (it's a minivan after all, with a sliding, wide door, necessary to get my wheelchair in and out), an appliance are what's used. I understand what you guys are saying, that it's not meant to insult, yet also seeming not to compliment, just neutral, factual words.

My obvious problem is that I take it a little personally when it's about my buying decision, I guess I'm thin-skinned about it. It never occurred to me that cars could be anything less than at least interesting, but obviously I'm wrong about that. A man in another car started screaming at me in a tight parking lot where I swung the van a bit wide to negotiate a turn, but he wanted to use that lane, and I didn't know since he didn't signal. He had to wait for me, and I certainly deserved the vitriol since I shaved a full five seconds from his apparently quick to anger life, but now I'm starting to think after understanding the negative emotions that some cars inspire that he had at least disappointment with my choice of car as well. From now on I'll understand these feelings, and some here certainly enlightened me about that - thank you. My naive, happy-go-lucky nature, devoid of the awareness of how my car affects others has now been schooled. I understand the anger I get when people can't see around my behemoth - I call her Penelope - after all I can't see around big cars either, but not thinking about other people's cars in a judgmental way (unless I think they're cool or something) is my Achilles heel; I lacked empathy for that. I like to learn things, again, thank you.

[sorry for the long post; I have a new roommate (he had some financial problems), and I've lost my living room, and his cat wakes me up in the middle of the night now, so I don't have anything to do here but read or write in the wee hours.]

 

[Kaido]

"Fiat flops" ?

* eyeballs his lemon Jeep Renegade made by FCA *

 

[KIAman]

As a BMW enthusiast who visits a ton of BMW boards and goes to events and owner of an E90 330i and an F10 Activehybrid5, I am VERY surprised BMW is that high on the list. LOL.

I really expected them to be pretty low on the list.

 

[PricklyPete]

As a BMW enthusiast who visits a ton of BMW boards and goes to events and owner of an E90 330i and an F10 Activehybrid5, I am VERY surprised BMW is that high on the list. LOL.

I really expected them to be pretty low on the list.

Agreed. They also made it to #5 on CR’s list.

 

[PricklyPete]

Well, I talked to someone I look up to in my personal life about all this (my big brother - we had a visit last night). He agrees with you guys (who think of some cars as appliances), but went a step further, he called Toyotas soulless. I see where all this comes from, they're decidedly not exciting, and I agree with that. It's all my sensitivity. When I plunk down some dough on a car, I never expect any compliments on it, and I didn't buy it looking for attention. Words like understated, practical, and sensible would never be used, and I totally grok that, words like boring, a refrigerator on wheels (it's a minivan after all, with a sliding, wide door, necessary to get my wheelchair in and out), an appliance are what's used. I understand what you guys are saying, that it's not meant to insult, yet also seeming not to compliment, just neutral, factual words.

My obvious problem is that I take it a little personally when it's about my buying decision, I guess I'm thin-skinned about it. It never occurred to me that cars could be anything less than at least interesting, but obviously I'm wrong about that. A man in another car started screaming at me in a tight parking lot where I swung the van a bit wide to negotiate a turn, but he wanted to use that lane, and I didn't know since he didn't signal. He had to wait for me, and I certainly deserved the vitriol since I shaved a full five seconds from his apparently quick to anger life, but now I'm starting to think after understanding the negative emotions that some cars inspire that he had at least disappointment with my choice of car as well. From now on I'll understand these feelings, and some here certainly enlightened me about that - thank you. My naive, happy-go-lucky nature, devoid of the awareness of how my car affects others has now been schooled. I understand the anger I get when people can't see around my behemoth - I call her Penelope - after all I can't see around big cars either, but not thinking about other people's cars in a judgmental way (unless I think they're cool or something) is my Achilles heel; I lacked empathy for that. I like to learn things, again, thank you.

[sorry for the long post; I have a new roommate (he had some financial problems), and I've lost my living room, and his cat wakes me up in the middle of the night now, so I don't have anything to do here but read or write in the wee hours.]

your car works well for you and should for a long time. Enjoy it.

 

[bradly1101]

I should qualify my brothers "soulless" Toyota comment with this: There are two Toyotas in his immediate family, and although I have to believe that he wasn't being insulting with his comment, he did feel the need to explain to me that his Tacoma couldn't be soulless, partly because it was a truck, and partly because he modified it for off-road use. I hung out with him while he replaced the entire front suspension, it was impressive, and seemed doable to me for the first time, just bolts and parts. It looked funny with the front end raised and the rear at its normal height; there was something about the leaf springs he couldn't do, but after it was done it looked like an off-road warrior.

A little over a year ago a family member died and willed me a 1999 Honda Civic sedan. I had no use for it and didn't want to hassle selling it; I knew it wasn't worth much, but it still ran great. My brother said he could use a more efficient daily driver, so I gave it to him. Now he uses half the gas to get to work (a legacy of a loving, pretty "green" ancestor still helping the planet - cool!), and reduces the wear on his truck, which is subject to all the off-road abuse. He had recently dropped his sport-cross motorcycle in Baja, and further hurt his aching back picking it up, making that an uncomfortable daily driver.

[my roommate is gone! It just didn't work, and he couldn't take his cat, so I still get woken up, but I lined up a loving home for it.]

 

[eng2d2]

toyota is an appliance car until you wake it up. They are sleeper cars

 

[IronWing]

My 2008 Honda Fit has been subject to four recalls to date and eats batteries. It may not be a lemon but I certainly don’t need an air freshener.

 

[pandemonium]

It's certainly a conundrum defining a lemon including recalls though. If a manufacturer can recall a seemingly insignificant issue that's happened to 1 or 2 people with that model, does that make it a lemon? Or does that make them responsible to admit to their small faults after the vehicle leaves the assembly line?

If it's a recall due to a defective part, that can't really be held to the parent company. If it's a recall due to defective engineering, I'd consider that a tell tale sign of a lemon, and that's where I draw the line and a manufacturer receives a penalty to their reputation. The problem is determining which recall is which, since we'll likely never have full transparency to choice by part manufacturer or parent company. That's looking further down the rabbit hole than most people are willing to though.

For me, Autoguide's lemon rating seems to be fairly representative on the whole. Averages and means of objective data will always end up being subjective to the end-user though. In the end, it matters not if 1 person out of 2,000,000 has a problem with a car and that brand's reputation is fatally wounded for them. They're still sitting pretty with 1,999,999 others.

 

[sdifox]

You guys ever look at truedelta?

 

[bradly1101]

My 2008 Honda Fit has been subject to four recalls to date and eats batteries. It may not be a lemon but I certainly don’t need an air freshener.

My partner's '99 Civic ate batteries voraciously. The dealer did all the charging/drain tests, and said it was fine. Really?

 

[dave_the_nerd]

My partner's '99 Civic ate batteries voraciously. The dealer did all the charging/drain tests, and said it was fine. Really?

"Within spec" and "broken" sometimes have an overlap. A couple years back Honda was trying to pass off "burning a quart of oil every thousand miles" as acceptable. Which is total horse puckey.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

You guys ever look at truedelta?

I do. I remember reading about it first over at ttac. I think one of the writers from ttac started it.

 

[bradly1101]

"Within spec" and "broken" sometimes have an overlap. A couple years back Honda was trying to pass off "burning a quart of oil every thousand miles" as acceptable. Which is total horse puckey.

To be fair, the Civic had a weird kind of 2/3 battery despite room around it. Every other car I'd seen or had has big, heavy batteries. He couldn't let the car sit for too long, which was a pain since we mostly used mine.

As a person who used to pride himself in giving the best customer service, I must say that it strangely helped my companies, and even helped me as some would write letters to my bosses and say nice things. So they made more money, and I made more money, was there something great I was missing about not doing a good job?

But I saw it all the time. There was this interesting word I learned growing up. Empathy. If you put yourself in another's shoes, and could see how it felt to be burning so much oil with no intended fix, [see how it was in my case when a lady bought some small juniper trees that had been in the outside patio for a couple of years, marked down multiple times. She had taken them home, took them up a hill, and they were root-bound. She couldn't get them out of their containers. I apologized, and told her that on her next trip, or anytime, that we'd loan her our can-cutters which could be returned any time. She wanted me (us) to go to her home and do it. I was totally empathetic, I'm sure she was frustrated. I kindly explained about the liability/insurance stuff, and she suggested someone come after work. I said, I'm really sorry we still can't do that. For all I knew, she could just be a lonely person, or have troubles getting out. I'm sure there'd be lemonade for whomever arrived. I offered my boss if she wanted to talk to a higher up. She kept repeating what she wanted. I said that I could let her know the details of the reasons, she said nothing for a while, she may have been waiting for me to hangup, I didn't though. I knew if I did, we may lose a customer to that new store over by the Del Amo mall called Target. She finally said OK. We didn't lose the customer. My store was Gemco, and besides Target being non-union, Asher Edleman was attempting a hostile takeover of our parent company, Lucky, and we had such thin margins and a relatively expensive payroll. At inventory we found an almost $1M loss. Shrinkage was ridiculous. I'll say this because the company is dead, and I saw two different arrests of caught employees. We were bleeding, ripe for takeover. I stayed 'til the bitter end. If we did, we were promised big severances, and they were delivered. On to electronics.] you might be nicer, a more profitable employee, move up. But who wants that?

But our customers really loved us and our prices. You had to pay $1 for lifetime membership, but that went to local scholarships.

Why don't we appeal to customers, have empathy? I am more important than she.

 

[bradly1101]

toyota is an appliance car until you wake it up. They are sleeper cars

My second Toyota was a new 1989 strangely loaded Camry with a 5 speed stick. I used it all the time from Sacramento to Squaw Valley, Mammoth/June, and Boreal (my old customers), and up and down the state (from Frito Lay near Bakersfield to a retirement home in Paradise). The roads in the mountains are great and nicely banked. To many it may sound weird that I had fun driving a four-cylinder Camry, but it was a blast! My mom had an '84 loaded Supra 5sp. Talk about a soulful car! I got to borrow it all the time. 120mph was the limit I set for myself from fear. My brother took it 10mph faster. It never whimpered. It had a little hand-pump for the driver seat lumbar support despite the rest of the electric seat controls. It was white, and had an aluminum wheeled spare to allow for the great, forgotten 5-tire rotation. Those tires weren't cheap.

I've had the Sienna on the track and a little Rally driving. Drifting is a problem for a FWD van, but I'd put it against any Ferrari or Lamborghini in cornering and acceleration. I should have sprung for the roll-cage.

 

[PricklyPete]

You guys ever look at truedelta?

I’ve participated in the site with my last 4 cars. I also use it for reference (along with other sites like CR).

 

[eng2d2]

My second Toyota was a new 1989 strangely loaded Camry with a 5 speed stick. I used it all the time from Sacramento to Squaw Valley, Mammoth/June, and Boreal (my old customers), and up and down the state (from Frito Lay near Bakersfield to a retirement home in Paradise). The roads in the mountains are great and nicely banked. To many it may sound weird that I had fun driving a four-cylinder Camry, but it was a blast! My mom had an '84 loaded Supra 5sp. Talk about a soulful car! I got to borrow it all the time. 120mph was the limit I set for myself from fear. My brother took it 10mph faster. It never whimpered. It had a little hand-pump for the driver seat lumbar support despite the rest of the electric seat controls. It was white, and had an aluminum wheeled spare to allow for the great, forgotten 5-tire rotation. Those tires weren't cheap.

I've had the Sienna on the track and a little Rally driving. Drifting is a problem for a FWD van, but I'd put it against any Ferrari or Lamborghini in cornering and acceleration. I should have sprung for the roll-cage.

I drove through bakersfield going to vegas. There are some nice stretch of roads there.

 

[bradly1101]

A mid-engine, RWD drifter:

Estima/Previa (I had a '92. It was traded in, running great, at 24yo.)

 

[Elixer]

You guys ever look at truedelta?

That site is the one I look at the most often.

The problem with this article is, they only have a small sample size, and then they do voodoo math on it (extrapolate) to account for all cars sold.
Real life don't work that way.

Would love to see dealer / shop data, since that is where the real #'s come from.