Okaaay... so Honda may have a rate of one lemon for 2.7M cars (or two for every 3.2M if you roll in the Acura numbers) but they only sell 1.6M cars a year. So, like, they made approximately one crappy car per year? Or, with annual US sales in the ~50k range, Porsche apparently makes one lemon every two years. How do mechanics stay in business?
That's basically impossible to reconcile with stats like: An estimated 150,000 cars each year (or 1% of new cars) are lemons...
Using consumer reporting to define "lemon" is pretty much broken from the start. It only shows that Toyota owners are, on the whole, more likely to view their cars as bedrocks of reliability, regardless of reality. Which speaks more to our capacity for post-purchase rationalization than anything else.
The first annual Lemon List is comprised of all legitimate complaints of a lemon for vehicles in North America from the 2010 model year and newer. Complaints included on the Lemon List are only those made between January 1, 2015 and December 31, 2015.
Reported instances of lemons per brand are then normalized using the total production for that brand within the timeline of the survey. Automaker sales total data is provided by GoodCarBadCar.net. 23 out of 43 brands monitored appear on the list and brands with zero reported lemons are not included on the list.
“By normalizing the data based on overall vehicle production statistics, we believe we’re giving more reliable statistics,” says Colum Wood, VP of Content at Verticlascope Inc. “This formula helps to give some real-world relevance to the numbers and makes sure that higher volume brands, which are statistically more likely to have more reported lemons, aren’t penalized. Less critical are the actual numbers, and more important is the ranking.”
Nonsense. You can't make a statement like that and honestly expect anyone to believe it can you?
Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:
For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.
So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.
FAKE NEWS.
Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:
For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.
So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.
FAKE NEWS.
Mercedes? Yes, okay. Gud study.
Does Pontiac (and friends) have lower 10-year repair costs because parts are cheaper, or because nobody bothers repairing a 10-year-old Pontiac? *zing*LTQI Puts MB near the top:
Maintenance and repair is a whole other type of measure... which MB sucks pretty hard at.
Okaaay... so Honda may have a rate of one lemon for 2.7M cars (or two for every 3.2M if you roll in the Acura numbers) but they only sell 1.6M cars a year. So, like, they made approximately one crappy car per year? Or, with annual US sales in the ~50k range, Porsche apparently makes one lemon every two years. How do mechanics stay in business?
That's basically impossible to reconcile with stats like: An estimated 150,000 cars each year (or 1% of new cars) are lemons...
Using consumer reporting to define "lemon" is pretty much broken from the start. It only shows that Toyota owners are, on the whole, more likely to view their cars as bedrocks of reliability, regardless of reality. Which speaks more to our capacity for post-purchase rationalization than anything else.
What would be the motivation to lie about what car someone owns? They get very specific about their issues/resolutions in those forums and many, many threads contain the words, "That happened to mine too. We were on the expressway, and..." Do you think the same methodology couldn't find out how many conservatives there are at AT vs. liberals. Too much lying about true feelings?Guys... did you read the article to see how they collected their so-called data? Here's the key paragraph:
For the sake of clarity, this study is intended to be a report of consumer sentiment, rather than an outright list of actual lemons. The information gathered is provided by users in conversations with other members across the AutoGuide Group’s 500-plus forums. Using proprietary software designed to hone in on keywords and sentiment, the data is collected and then further sorted to determine legitimate complaints.
So to be really clear - lemon laws differ by state, and we're taking data from 100% anonymous people with no proof they actually owned a vehicle and scraping forums with "proprietary software" to get this data? Holy worthless article. I've never used this term in my life, but if it ever applies it's here.
FAKE NEWS.
The strangest thing to me is that in this forum it seems like many wouldn't be caught dead in a Toyota, throwing insults when I have mentioned my rides and that I've only needed four cars in all my 55 years (all Toyotas) with words like, "You drive appliances." Why the Toyota hate?
What would be the motivation to lie about what car someone owns? They get very specific about their issues/resolutions in those forums and many, many threads contain the words, "That happened to mine too. We were on the expressway, and..." Do you think the same methodology couldn't find out how many conservatives there are at AT vs. liberals. Too much lying about true feelings?
This isn't about insulting owners, and of course many people don't like data of any kind that contradicts their feelings and choices.
From my experience in a modern Toyota offering, besides functional, sturdy, and mature, I would add smooth, quiet, composed, and to me luxurious. I knew I wanted the base model van since it didn't have those pesky power sliding doors that even Toyota has had issues with along with the other mfrs., yet it's filled with creature comforts. I payed about $20K less than what others seem to be paying by not wanting leather, power doors, giant wheels (why do people want such huge wheels other than they make a car look like a Hot Wheels car and usually worsen the ride?) or sunroofs; it has all the rest of the stuff. $20K! I like driving less than striking automobiles, but I'm an understated kind of guy, and there's less chance of them being stolen . Bragging rights seem silly to me when plunking down so much money.Not sure I’ve ever picked up on the “hate” you are referring to. “You drive an appliance” is pretty descriptive of what owning a Toyota is like. I have owned four in my 39 years (Corolla, Camry, Tacoma, 4Runner). I’ve also owned Mazda’s, Honda’s, BMW’s, Audi’s, and even a GMC. Between that and driving countless other brands/models...Toyota’s very much feel like an appliance. Not necessarily a ding. There is a certain utilitarian appeal to a very functional, sturdy, mature vehicle. It often translates very well into their truck/SUV’s.
Lexus has made some strides in making their cars more emotive (IS, GS, LC500, LCA, etc). Toyota also seems to be making some efforts in the FT86, and latest Camry offering (but dear god, that is a face that only a mother could love).
And many, who like me, have used that data as their main source of car buying decision making for decades. The data can strangely precede the choice.There are people who like data of any kind that conforms to their feelings and choices. It's called confirmation bias.
From my experience in a modern Toyota offering, besides functional, sturdy, and mature, I would add smooth, quiet, composed, and to me luxurious. I knew I wanted the base model van since it didn't have those pesky power sliding doors that even Toyota has had issues with along with the other mfrs., yet it's filled with creature comforts. I payed about $20K less than what others seem to be paying by not wanting leather, power doors, giant wheels (why do people want such huge wheels other than they make a car look like a Hot Wheels car and usually worsen the ride?) or sunroofs; it has all the rest of the stuff. $20K! I like driving less than striking automobiles, but I'm an understated kind of guy, and there's less chance of them being stolen . Bragging rights seem silly to me when plunking down so much money.
Nobody wants a real lemon (which that site grossly abused as a term) but only anally retentive people want to sacrifice what they really want in a vehicle to just buy whatever is tops on some list.