The little things - why Linux still isn't ready for prime-time.

[HeXen]

Linux has netflix and when netflix switches from silverlight to HTML5 almost every device can have it.

Making it work and having native support are entirely 2 different things.
A quote on a recent article talking about the future of Netflix....
"What isn't mentioned is any support for other platforms like Linux, although Netflix says it can't wait until the features are "implemented in all browsers!"

Sure, they "can't wait". a little too late anyway for those who wanted to switch to LInux years ago. You shouldn't believe everything you read, they have been saying similar for years and Netflix never once mentioned Linux for proper support. The issue I'm explaining is not for user's like us, but for average joes out there, they are not gonna adopt something with unofficial support since such things never come OEM on a PC by default.

Fixing problems in Linux has never been a problem due to the fact that meaningful errors are most likely always produced.

wtf are you talking about. Fixing problems for many users requires google and forums, often with many "try typing this or this" crap. With OEM's (since that's what most people buy) They just hit the "remote support" button and watch someone else fix it or take it Geek Squad.

I have a Dell XPS L502X laptop that has the notorious optimus freezing issue in windows where the only 'fix' seems to be not using my Nvidia card. In Linux this problem does not exist.

amazing. This really means what exactly?

As for games. One can easily develop games using Open source software (OpenGL, OpenAl, SDL) that can target Windows, Mac OSX and Linux at the same time. Valve has seen the light and I don't think they'll go back to using DirectX only

.

They sure can, too bad most don't huh. Valve is a business and what API they use is irrelevant, no company spends a high budget for supporting a niche userbase. In other words, Windows will continue to see most of Valves attention.

Like I said, Linux isn't going any further here, it never has, and guy's like you have been spewing the same BS about it over and over like it's gonna be the real deal, always talking it up and spewing it's potential that never grabs customers or yapping about all of these unofficial methods and hacks to make other platform's sh*t work, but yet here we are, with all the gamer's still playing on Windows, all the OEM's still pushing it and marketing it as well

 

[hasu]

Like I said, Linux isn't going any further here, it never has, and guy's like you have been spewing the same BS about it over and over like it's gonna be the real deal, always talking it up and spewing it's potential that never grabs customers or yapping about all of these unofficial methods and hacks to make other platform's sh*t work, but yet here we are, with all the gamer's still playing on Windows, all the OEM's still pushing it and marketing it as well

I would just denouce that as FUD. Why did you care to type all that up, I wonder!?

 

[Elixer]

Fixing problems in Linux has never been a problem due to the fact that meaningful errors are most likely always produced.

LOL, good one.
Almost always someone must translate the so called 'meaningful' error message.
Don't take my word for it, hit the ubuntu or debian forums or any other distro forums, and see how many 'WTF does this mean' posts there are...

This isn't only a linux problem, pretty much all software I have every used on any platform has tons of error messages that must have been thought up with a brew in one hand, and listening to someone bitch at them at the same time.

 

[Jodell88]

LOL, good one.
Almost always someone must translate the so called 'meaningful' error message.
Don't take my word for it, hit the ubuntu or debian forums or any other distro forums, and see how many 'WTF does this mean' posts there are...

This isn't only a linux problem, pretty much all software I have every used on any platform has tons of error messages that must have been thought up with a brew in one hand, and listening to someone bitch at them at the same time.

I can't disagree here. Error messages are mainly written for programmers. Though they can give a user an idea of what is wrong. The worst error message of all is the "Segmentation Fault" though.

However, as a programmer if a user approached you with an error, would you rather have some thing like "GPU has fallen off the bus" or "Video driver has crashed and has recovered"?

 

[Red Squirrel]

The error argument kinda goes both ways. I have seen some extremely meaningless errors in Windows, and unlike Linux, when you get such error in Windows you are usually screwed because it's closed source so not as many people know the ins and outs of it. In Linux, usually someone who has actually combed through the source knows what it means they can help you. Though it definitely would be nice if Linux coders provided better errors. Perhaps a straight to the point error, with a separate debug log with an entry for that error, would make them way ahead of Windows in that regard.

Also the argument that you get support with Windows (or any commercial product) is often false. Ever actually try calling support for most of these companies? You end up in India, and know what they're doing? They have Google open, and troubleshooting just like you were doing before you called. In some cases they might be able to give you a special utility that you can't download. Companies always use this support thing as an argument for not wanting to touch open source, but it's moot. The support you get is not really all that revolutionary. Support is an afterthought by these companies and they don't want to spend much on it so they outsource it. Basically, it's enough so they can say that somebody will actually pickup the phone if you call. MS also charges per incident. So all that money you paid? Well you have to pay more if you actually need support.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I can't disagree here. Error messages are mainly written for programmers. Though they can give a user an idea of what is wrong. The worst error message of all is the "Segmentation Fault" though.

Oh I dread that... even as a programmer. :awe: Then again, this same error in Windows would tell the user that they performed an illegal operation. :biggrin:

 

[HeXen]

I would just denouce that as FUD. Why did you care to type all that up, I wonder!?

Cause this is the exact same responses and debating at this very forum from several similar threads back in 2007. Nothing of this thread, sound familiar? well it's now 2013 and here we are, repeating the exact same crap with the supporters talking as if anyone can replace Windows 100% and do everything just as easy while choosing to ignore the weakness's of what they wish to ignore or does not pertain to them cause they are some genius programmer.

Yet today...still, most Linux user's are dual booting to make use of Windows, not replacing it. So what is the actual replacements? OSX of course cause it's the only other one with proper development and commercial support along with appeal for simplicity. There is my point and there is your proof. Don't bother making the post something it is not. If you don't know the shortcomings of each OS and why they are the way they are today then you shouldn't be here. It's been a year since I even bothered putting forth much effort into replacing Windows as completely as possible, yet I'd bet my last dollar that I could install Mint right now and still not even be able to activate my ipad among many other things that many other consumers today like to do.

Like I said before, Linux has the potential to be a better OS, but potential is a word dreamer's use and years later they are still dreaming.

 

[ControlD]

Cause this is the exact same responses and debating at this very forum from several similar threads back in 2007. Nothing of this thread, sound familiar? well it's now 2013 and here we are, repeating the exact same crap with the supporters talking as if anyone can replace Windows 100% and do everything just as easy while choosing to ignore the weakness's of what they wish to ignore or does not pertain to them cause they are some genius programmer.

Yet today...still, most Linux user's are dual booting to make use of Windows, not replacing it. So what is the actual replacements? OSX of course cause it's the only other one with proper development and commercial support along with appeal for simplicity. There is my point and there is your proof. Don't bother making the post something it is not. If you don't know the shortcomings of each OS and why they are the way they are today then you shouldn't be here. It's been a year since I even bothered putting forth much effort into replacing Windows as completely as possible, yet I'd bet my last dollar that I could install Mint right now and still not even be able to activate my ipad among many other things that many other consumers today like to do.

Like I said before, Linux has the potential to be a better OS, but potential is a word dreamer's use and years later they are still dreaming.

While I agree with the substance of your post, I disagree that OSX is the actual replacement for most people that would be dual booting Windows and Linux. I run Linux as my main desktop OS, and I boot into Windows if I want to play any big budget "AAA" gaming titles. OSX is not a proper replacement because it also does not have great support for the newest gaming titles. It is getting better for sure, but that is the same argument Linux users are putting forth. It still isn't equal footing by a long shot. Even my Macbook Pro has a bootcamp install of Windows for such purposes.

 

[spamhunter]

Yeah Linux has it's problems and may not be ready for the average user but it's come leaps and bounds from where it started. Besides, it's free and is an amazing accomplishment.

 

[hasu]

Yeah Linux has it's problems and may not be ready for the average user but it's come leaps and bounds from where it started. Besides, it's free and is an amazing accomplishment.

It is all about expectations. For some reason, some people have *extremely high* expectations about an operating system when it comes to Linux. It is strange that they are fine with all other operating systems, even if it does not meet their expectations -- they will just find work around.

 

[poofyhairguy]

It is all about expectations. For some reason, some people have *extremely high* expectations about an operating system when it comes to Linux. It is strange that they are fine with all other operating systems, even if it does not meet their expectations -- they will just find work around.

Amen.

Call it Desktop Linux and it has to run iTunes, WOW, Photoshop, etc.

Call it Android and as long as it can text, check Facebook, and play the game of aggravated avians it becomes the primary computing platform of the future.

Call it Chrome OS and people celebrate when they get the most basic things like file management and somewhat local apps.

Then take that Chromebook, hack "Desktop Linux" on there and be amazed with the functionality you gain.


No single computer ecosystem might ever be as fully functional as x86 Windows is ever again. Going forward the commoditization of hardware will mean more specialty devices and general purpose devices like x86 Windows will be a niche, at least in the consumer market.

And we will all bemoan the good old days when a Windows desktop could do anything we wanted, while our kids ingore us while they play with their Linux phones.

 

[Jodell88]

n/m

 

[Stone Rain]

You realize that VirtualBox flashes a giant popup explaining that you need to press right-ctrl to uncapture the keyboard and mouse, right? That's pretty hard to miss, unless you just click "ok" on windows without reading them.

Also...what average user do you know that even uses VirtualBox? By definition that's not in the scope of "average"; virtualization is power user territory.

 

[Mallibu]

I use Xubuntu on my weak netbook and it does wonders.
However, when I attempted to make linux my default OS in my desktop, all hell broke loose. I use dual screen, with one beeing in portrait mode to fit more code verticaly. After Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Kubuntu and Mint all failed to properly set up that, I've tried various things for days with crappy results.
In the end, I just got fed up, installed OS X (hacintosh) and after 20 seconds in Settings the monitors were set up fine.
I'd really love some Linux prime time, but it just isn't as polished as the other 2.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah I've found that out too, Linux and multi screen just don't go together.

There are devices you can buy though that combine multiple monitors into one big one so the OS sees it as just one. I wonder how good these are. Only down side is something full screen like a game would treat all monitors as one. Not ideal especially for gaming, because of the bezels.

 

[VirtualLarry]

So that brings up driver issues. I can install Mint and have it 100% working on my system in minutes. It takes hours to do the same thing for a Windows 7 install. All my hardware is supported by default in Linux. The drivers just work, and are part of the kernel.

Saying that linux isn't ready because of driver support doesn't make sense. In that respect, Windows is not ready either... I have to download a driver for just about every piece of hardware in my system for it to work right. You have to rely on manufactures for Windows drivers... so blame them. I have to spend hours installing them along with a boatload of updates the first time I install...

If only it were that easy to install Linux. I have an MSI A5000 laptop, with a C2D T3100 dual-core Celeron, and NV chipset and graphics. Unsure what wifi chipset it has, but a Win7 install DVD installs all of the necessary drivers automagically, except for the display driver. However, the display IS FUNCTIONAL even without the NV driver installed, because Windows can fallback to a standard VGA/VESA driver.

Sadly, Linux cannot do this. Nor can it have both an NV and ATI driver installed at once.

I tried booting my USB 32GB flash stick with Linux Mint 14.1 on it, on that MSI laptop. I initially got a GUI, and I was able to login, but then it froze up. Locked solid. So I powered off and rebooted, and tried again. This time, it flashed into the GUI, then it kept kicking me out and giving me some error about nueveo drivers or something. (I understand, that those are the fledgling open-source NV drivers.)

Well, if they don't work 100%, why include them in a production kernel? Why doesn't Linux boot using a VESA driver, which should be guaranteed to work on ANY machine, that has a VBE-compliant BIOS (99.99% of them), and then once installed, allow you you to CHOOSE to install whatever video driver you need.

My friend who also runs Linux mint, who has more experience than I (in some ways), also ran into a problem changing out his ATI video card for an NV one.

He had to re-install Mint. Unlike Windows, where you just un-install the driver, shut down, remove the old card, put the new card in, and re-install the new drivers, nope, need to re-install the OS entirely. All because Linux doesn't seem to have a fall-back VESA driver.

 

[Crusty]

If only it were that easy to install Linux. I have an MSI A5000 laptop, with a C2D T3100 dual-core Celeron, and NV chipset and graphics. Unsure what wifi chipset it has, but a Win7 install DVD installs all of the necessary drivers automagically, except for the display driver. However, the display IS FUNCTIONAL even without the NV driver installed, because Windows can fallback to a standard VGA/VESA driver.

Sadly, Linux cannot do this. Nor can it have both an NV and ATI driver installed at once.

I tried booting my USB 32GB flash stick with Linux Mint 14.1 on it, on that MSI laptop. I initially got a GUI, and I was able to login, but then it froze up. Locked solid. So I powered off and rebooted, and tried again. This time, it flashed into the GUI, then it kept kicking me out and giving me some error about nueveo drivers or something. (I understand, that those are the fledgling open-source NV drivers.)

Well, if they don't work 100%, why include them in a production kernel? Why doesn't Linux boot using a VESA driver, which should be guaranteed to work on ANY machine, that has a VBE-compliant BIOS (99.99% of them), and then once installed, allow you you to CHOOSE to install whatever video driver you need.

My friend who also runs Linux mint, who has more experience than I (in some ways), also ran into a problem changing out his ATI video card for an NV one.

He had to re-install Mint. Unlike Windows, where you just un-install the driver, shut down, remove the old card, put the new card in, and re-install the new drivers, nope, need to re-install the OS entirely. All because Linux doesn't seem to have a fall-back VESA driver.

That's because if your GFX don't work in Windows you're really screwed, you can't do anything at all. In Linux, your fallback are your virtual terminals and single user mode so non-working GFX is not a fatal problem.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That's because if your GFX don't work in Windows you're really screwed, you can't do anything at all. In Linux, your fallback are your virtual terminals and single user mode so non-working GFX is not a fatal problem.

Maybe not for a command-line guru / Linux power-user, but for your average person trying to use Linux, and perhaps upgrade their hardware, it's a pretty fatal error. And just because Linux allows you to bring up a text command-line, is no excuse for not implementing a fallback VESA driver for a GUI.

 

[Cerb]

Maybe not for a command-line guru / Linux power-user, but for your average person trying to use Linux, and perhaps upgrade their hardware, it's a pretty fatal error. And just because Linux allows you to bring up a text command-line, is no excuse for not implementing a fallback VESA driver for a GUI.

Wayland and use of in-kernel hardware support can't come fast enough. X is a POS. MS went to WDDM, and it was a pain for a few years, but it works well. FOSS needs to go the same route. X had a good run, but let it die, die, die, in a great conflagration*!

* But make sure X-compatible terminal windows can be run, for legacy applications

 

[Brainonska511]

Before I begin, let me state that I've used Linux on and off over the years. About 4 years ago, I use exclusively using Ubuntu on my laptop, but after a few months, I went back to Windows. I do use Fedora on a workstation, but that's for running scientific programs.

Making it work and having native support are entirely 2 different things.
A quote on a recent article talking about the future of Netflix....
"What isn't mentioned is any support for other platforms like Linux, although Netflix says it can't wait until the features are "implemented in all browsers!"

Sure, they "can't wait". a little too late anyway for those who wanted to switch to LInux years ago. You shouldn't believe everything you read, they have been saying similar for years and Netflix never once mentioned Linux for proper support. The issue I'm explaining is not for user's like us, but for average joes out there, they are not gonna adopt something with unofficial support since such things never come OEM on a PC by default.

This is my problem with Linux as well. I'm perfectly capable of tweaking stuff to get it to work (sometimes), but a lot of times, I just want it to work out of the box.

wtf are you talking about. Fixing problems for many users requires google and forums, often with many "try typing this or this" crap. With OEM's (since that's what most people buy) They just hit the "remote support" button and watch someone else fix it or take it Geek Squad.

And some things are not fixed by Googling (or the fixes are pretty meh). One bug I encountered in KDE with Fedora 16 was that it would never remember the monitor settings. I had to write a script to execute when I logged in in order to force my dual-monitor preference.

Like I said, Linux isn't going any further here, it never has, and guy's like you have been spewing the same BS about it over and over like it's gonna be the real deal, always talking it up and spewing it's potential that never grabs customers or yapping about all of these unofficial methods and hacks to make other platform's sh*t work, but yet here we are, with all the gamer's still playing on Windows, all the OEM's still pushing it and marketing it as well

I just don't see Linux really getting out into the mainstream as long as things continue to act funky out of the box. There's too many choices and a lack of software support (possibly due to the former problem).