-= The Luxury of Protest =- -= The Poverty of Knowledge =- -= and mice =-

[Sketcher]

This is not an exposition to validate the mores of war so much as to put light on a very small aspect of a bigger picture. A horrific reality that many do not consider. But, flame as you will. Argue your war morals and witty catches about who's on the front lines and closed door conspiracies. Few here are political science majors, and even fewer here have actually seen war. But don't let that stop you... Of course it won't

************************************************

A few of my old friends while in college thought they were pretty important protesting during the Gulf War/Desert Storm. They sent me pictures of themselves protesting and waving signs with catchy phrases about killing babies and oil mongering and such.

I sent them back some pictures of civilians who were thrown into a lion's cage in a zoo by Saddam's Republican Guard for resisting their recruiting of "fighting age" boys. A couple of them got mad at me for sending them such gruesome pictures without warning them... one picture shows two lions fighting over the upper torso of a man, with a child and wife screaming, clutching the bars of the cage... it's bad. it's just very bad.

There is sooooo much that is never shown on CNN or written about by the media. I'm not saying that all motivation for war, even the Gulf War isn't without its questionable elements... It's just that most of the people doing the questioning do so from the luxury of not having to deal with it first hand, even second hand for that matter.

It'd be interesting to see what manner of protesting would take place if those who ruled by terror stepped into our backyard with more force and influence than they did on 9/11... and someone posted pictures for the masses who do not experience it first hand.

***********************************************
******Excerpt from a post later in this thread**********

I posted, not to argue the morals of war but to encourage people to think beyond the witty anti-war slogans and picket lines. Too often those who are yelling the loudest about freedom from oppression and freedom of speech are those are are not willing to put their lives on the line for it. Glorified? No. Necessary? At times.

 

[Moonbeam]

It would be interesting to see how many would favor war if they or their kids had to be in the first wave.

 

[Soybomb]

Yeah its a good thing Sketcher because now his Republican Guard is no more....wait a minute....they're still there and we'll probably kill just as many civillians as they will. Seriously at what point in time do you believe we have to assume the people want their government overthrown? Is there a large uprising fighting against his tyrrany?

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It would be interesting to see how many would favor war if they or their kids had to be in the first wave.

I volunteered to join the USS Missouri Battlegroup en-route to the Persian Gulf in support of Desert Storm. I was a number in the BDA assessment for the Naval presence. My parents believe in fighting for freedom and though their passion is that they would have given their own lives to spare mine, they supported my decision. To say that anyone "Favor's war" Moonbeam?

For the record Moon, The United States Military is an ALL VOLUNTEER FORCE. Certainly you do not sign up in hopes that war will ensue, but you're in the wrong job field if you are a conscientious objector hoping to not have to stand by your convictions.


Certainly, fewer wars would be waged if the Leaders were the first to step on to the battlefield.

Regarding the "Kids had to be in the first wave".... Suicide bombings in ME by children and family's compensated for their martyrdom, Parent's proud of their children's sacrafice. Yes Moonbeam, there are those who favor war.


It's easy to make the witty quips. Less so to be responsible for the bold ranting that fuels the fires. Yet it continues.

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Soybomb
Yeah its a good thing Sketcher because now his Republican Guard is no more....wait a minute....they're still there and we'll probably kill just as many civillians as they will. Seriously at what point in time do you believe we have to assume the people want their government overthrown? Is there a large uprising fighting against his tyrrany?

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. -Voltaire"

This is your Sig is it not Soybomb?... defend, to the death, eh?... Well, at least you'd die for something.

 

[UDT89]

Can i just ask one question?

If we found these war heads 09/12/01, would protests be going on?

I still think people that dont live in NY or DC got the FULL effect of the terror attacks. DONT take that as me saying no one cares or had sorrow, just a simple statement about distance from your front doorstep thats all.

I used to be able to see the top of the towers from the roof of my old job. Not to mention the countless times i was in them, on top of them, or just staring at them. I know Saddam doesnt have a direct link to 9/11, but there is a roundabout link. Plus, i think hes got the power to do something worse.

I wanna protest a protest.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It would be interesting to see how many would favor war if they or their kids had to be in the first wave.

If my country needed me, I would go with the first wave.

 

[ROTC1983]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It would be interesting to see how many would favor war if they or their kids had to be in the first wave.

If my country needed me, I would go with the first wave.

Yeah, me too...

 

[Orbius]

You're equating opposing war with people opposing individual soldiers. This isn't a valid argument. I guarantee you that the minute a soldier's buddies head gets blown off and he has to wipe the brains off his fatigues, he'll likely be opposed to the war too. Who wouldnt fight if his family or country was threatened, but to fight half-way around the world in some crap-hole that no one cares about. I wouldn't ask anyone to do that therefore I feel great empathy for the soldiers being forced over there and all the innocent Iraqi's who'll die horribly, thats why I protest, if you don't respect that to hell with you.

 

[TheShiz]

"In retrospect, it is not clear what positive benefits the Gulf war produced. Kuwait has been returned to its previous form of authoritarian government without significant reforms and with billions of dollars worth of damage done to the country. Iraq's economic infrastructure has been ruined and the Iraqi death count has been estimated as high as 243,000 as a result of war. (The U.S. policy of "bomb now, die later" produced for the Iraqi people epidemics of cholera, typhoid, and other deadly diseases and the lack of medicine and medical equipment to deal with even minor problems. Iraqi childeren were dying of starvation and disease, and Bush continued to insist on an economic boycott of Iraq.)" from The Persian Gulf TV War, by Doug Kellner (1992)

I know a dated reference, yet still interesting.

Tim

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Orbius
You're equating opposing war with people opposing individual soldiers. This isn't a valid argument. I guarantee you that the minute a soldier's buddies head gets blown off and he has to wipe the brains off his fatigues, he'll likely be opposed to the war too. Who wouldnt fight if his family or country was threatened, but to fight half-way around the world in some crap-hole that no one cares about. I wouldn't ask anyone to do that therefore I feel great empathy for the soldiers being forced over there and all the innocent Iraqi's who'll die horribly, thats why I protest, if you don't respect that to hell with you.

Now that is actually quite intelligent discourse (please don't misunderstand the sarcasm, I mean every bit of it). I certainly respect your opinion Orbius, but respect is not always accompanied by agreement - especially regarding certain points in your post. Soldiers being forced to go over there? It's not a liberal canoe club membership that confuses a civilian job with actual military action! The United States Armed Forces...

I suppose you'd join Mary Kay Cosmetics because they're offering college scholarships and then become indignant when given your first package of makeup to sell eh?

Come on, you're wading in a pool that is over your head even in the shallow end. To very simply answer a point you made "Who wouldnt fight if his family or country was threatened, but to fight half-way around the world in some crap-hole that no one cares about" Ever think that to prevent you from having to protect your family or country on your own homefront you just might have to commit to war a bit farther away? Or have you never played chess, risk, stratego (I only mention games for the strategem, not to equate life with game).

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It would be interesting to see how many would favor war if they or their kids had to be in the first wave.

I volunteered to join the USS Missouri Battlegroup en-route to the Persian Gulf in support of Desert Storm. I was a number in the BDA assessment for the Naval presence. My parents believe in fighting for freedom and though their passion is that they would have given their own lives to spare mine, they supported my decision. To say that anyone "Favor's war" Moonbeam?

For the record Moon, The United States Military is an ALL VOLENTEER FORCE. Certainly you do not sign up in hopes that war will ensue, but you're in the wrong job field if you are a conscientious objector hoping to not have to stand by your convictions.


Certainly, fewer wars would be waged if the Leaders were the first to step on to the battlefield.

Regarding the "Kids had to be in the first wave".... Suicide bombings in ME by children and family's compensated for their martyrdom, Parent's proud of their children's sacrafice. Yes Moonbeam, there are those who favor war.


It's easy to make the witty quips. Less so to be responsible for the bold ranting that fuels the fires. Yet it continues.

You have to remember that the so called Gulf war was not a war. It was a slaughter. The U.S. was fighting against a 3rd world country. There were more friendly fire american deaths than americans killed in battle I believe. And the result of that war? A "victory" for the US. Saddam still in power after gassing the kurds and all the great things he has done, and lots of dead Iraqies, what a great victory there. That war was a joke.

Tim

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: TheShiz
"In retrospect, it is not clear what positive benefits the Gulf war produced. Kuwait has been returned to its previous form of authoritarian government without significant reforms and with billions of dollars worth of damage done to the country. Iraq's economic infrastructure has been ruined and the Iraqi death count has been estimated as high as 243,000 as a result of war. (The U.S. policy of "bomb now, die later" produced for the Iraqi people epidemics of cholera, typhoid, and other deadly diseases and the lack of medicine and medical equipment to deal with even minor problems. Iraqi childeren were dying of starvation and disease, and Bush continued to insist on an economic boycott of Iraq.)" from The Persian Gulf TV War, by Doug Kellner (1992)

I know a dated reference, yet still interesting.

Tim

Definitely interesting TheShiz, now THAT's worthy of discussion. There are many articles which describe what you've quoted, and as many that chronicle significant progress - some of which Doug Kellner has contributed to.

I in no way expressed that the intentions or outcome of the Gulf War were an end to justify the means or that the effort was infallible simply because it could be championed in a patriotic veign. My original reason for posting is simply that too many people post from their lack of knowledge or experience, regurgitate witty phrases and anti-war slogans without respecting their freedoms which came as a result of war.

That I posted a specific instance of significant inhumane cruelty in relation to the ignorance of my personal friends and end in arguing the mores of war on a grand scale - even having described the "small part" of the big picture from whence it came... only shows that avoidance is more popular and easier to sleep with than conviction.

EVERYONE Champions FREE SPEECH! How many raving posts are spewed in the name of FREEDOM of SPEECH and very few of these same constitution claimers know jack sh1t about the price that was paid for their "Right" they so loudly claim. MoonBeam even carries in his Signature that he'd fight to the death for someone's right to speak their mind. Mention dying for a fashionable "war" issue and you get spooge.

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: TheShiz
"In retrospect, it is not clear what positive benefits the Gulf war produced. Kuwait has been returned to its previous form of authoritarian government without significant reforms and with billions of dollars worth of damage done to the country. Iraq's economic infrastructure has been ruined and the Iraqi death count has been estimated as high as 243,000 as a result of war. (The U.S. policy of "bomb now, die later" produced for the Iraqi people epidemics of cholera, typhoid, and other deadly diseases and the lack of medicine and medical equipment to deal with even minor problems. Iraqi childeren were dying of starvation and disease, and Bush continued to insist on an economic boycott of Iraq.)" from The Persian Gulf TV War, by Doug Kellner (1992)

I know a dated reference, yet still interesting.

Tim

Definitely interesting TheShiz, now THAT's worthy of discussion. There are many articles which describe what you've quoted, and as many that chronicle significant progress - some of which Doug Kellner has contributed to.

I in no way expressed that the intentions or outcome of the Gulf War were an end to justify the means or that the effort was infallible simply because it could be championed in a patriotic veign. My original reason for posting is simply that too many people post from their lack of knowledge or experience, regurgitate witty phrases and anti-war slogans without respecting their freedoms which came as a result of war.

That I posted a specific instance of significant inhumane cruelty in relation to the ignorance of my personal friends and end in arguing the mores of war on a grand scale - even having described the "small part" of the big picture from whence it came... only shows that avoidance is more popular and easier to sleep with than conviction.

EVERYONE Champions FREE SPEECH! How many raving posts are spewed in the name of FREEDOM of SPEECH and very few of these same constitution claimers know jack sh1t about the price that was paid for their "Right" they so loudly claim. MoonBeam even carries in his Signature that he'd fight to the death for someone's right to speak their mind. Mention dying for a fashionable "war" issue and you get spooge.

I think it definately goes both ways though. Some people are quick to agree with war just taking in whatever the president or whoever tells them. I do wish that people would do some research, and definately get some outside sources for news to go along with your New York Times or CNN.

Tim

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: TheShiz
"In retrospect, it is not clear what positive benefits the Gulf war produced. Kuwait has been returned to its previous form of authoritarian government without significant reforms and with billions of dollars worth of damage done to the country. Iraq's economic infrastructure has been ruined and the Iraqi death count has been estimated as high as 243,000 as a result of war. (The U.S. policy of "bomb now, die later" produced for the Iraqi people epidemics of cholera, typhoid, and other deadly diseases and the lack of medicine and medical equipment to deal with even minor problems. Iraqi childeren were dying of starvation and disease, and Bush continued to insist on an economic boycott of Iraq.)" from The Persian Gulf TV War, by Doug Kellner (1992)

I know a dated reference, yet still interesting.

Tim

Definitely interesting TheShiz, now THAT's worthy of discussion. There are many articles which describe what you've quoted, and as many that chronicle significant progress - some of which Doug Kellner has contributed to.

I in no way expressed that the intentions or outcome of the Gulf War were an end to justify the means or that the effort was infallible simply because it could be championed in a patriotic veign. My original reason for posting is simply that too many people post from their lack of knowledge or experience, regurgitate witty phrases and anti-war slogans without respecting their freedoms which came as a result of war.

That I posted a specific instance of significant inhumane cruelty in relation to the ignorance of my personal friends and end in arguing the mores of war on a grand scale - even having described the "small part" of the big picture from whence it came... only shows that avoidance is more popular and easier to sleep with than conviction.

EVERYONE Champions FREE SPEECH! How many raving posts are spewed in the name of FREEDOM of SPEECH and very few of these same constitution claimers know jack sh1t about the price that was paid for their "Right" they so loudly claim. MoonBeam even carries in his Signature that he'd fight to the death for someone's right to speak their mind. Mention dying for a fashionable "war" issue and you get spooge.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
-Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: TheShiz
I think it definately goes both ways though. Some people are quick to agree with war just taking in whatever the president or whoever tells them. I do wish that people would do some research, and definately get some outside sources for news to go along with your New York Times or CNN.

Tim

Well said Tim.

*************************

Regarding your previous comment about the Gulf "War" being a joke, I understand your intent but will endeavor to use other words to describe it. Had Saddam actually achieved the frenzied commitment of a Holy War that he was striving for, there would be less consternation about the applied use of force and more the recognition of what Saddam is and was capable of doing. No question that the UN and US together put a bit more into the mix than was perhaps needed. I am thankful however, to argue that it was too much, rather than regret that it was too little.

The outcome of the Gulf War? That is for the history books to write and re-write as the years pass and for the political science enthusiasts to delineate. There is no one consensus on the full impact of the Gulf War, only impressions. And the people who surrounded the war table are not obligated to explain to the public the nature from which their decisions were made - only that they had the support of the country as a whole, AND the United Nations to do so.

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Mookow. "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
-Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

Thank you for that Mookow.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: Mookow. "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
-Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

Thank you for that Mookow.

I just thought I'd condense your post for you

 

[Shockwave]

Originally posted by: Sketcher


No, I will not post or mail pics.

So your making this all up. I need proof positive. My eyes do not decieve me, but your words may.

GIMME THE PICS MAN! PLEASE!

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Shockwave

Originally posted by: Sketcher

No, I will not post or mail pics.

So your making this all up. I need proof positive. My eyes do not decieve me, but your words may.

GIMME THE PICS MAN! PLEASE!

Shockwave,

This thread will very quickly become about the schtuff of locked legends if I were to post the pics I referred to - and that is not what this thread is about. It's not a debate of gruesome pictures. Those can be found anywhere, and many threads have been locked referring to where.

I have no need to show a picture to support my meaning and I though I have them, I am not given to looking at them or sharing them for spectacle.

 

[Soybomb]

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: Soybomb
Yeah its a good thing Sketcher because now his Republican Guard is no more....wait a minute....they're still there and we'll probably kill just as many civillians as they will. Seriously at what point in time do you believe we have to assume the people want their government overthrown? Is there a large uprising fighting against his tyrrany?

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. -Voltaire"

This is your Sig is it not Soybomb?... defend, to the death, eh?... Well, at least you'd die for something.

It is indeed, is Iraq squelching your freedom of speech? Mine seems to be alive and kicking despite evil Saddam. For that matter all my presonal freedoms are intact, although I'm worried about new and coming legislation from our own government. Almost sounds like you're glorifying death. You may think to die battling is heroic or patriotic, but its a worthless death if its not for a just cause and at the moment I certainly don't feel Iraq is a just cause. If I've misunderstood what you were trying to say then in relation to my sig please let me know.

 

[Red Dawn]

There's no question in my mind that Hussien needs to be nuetralized I'm just not sure that we are prepared to go the whole way. We will have to send in an occupational force to secure the whole of Iraq to keep that country from turning into an oasis of anarchy and Islamic Radicalism. If we go it alone or with the help of Britian the cost to do so will be astronimical. Also I'm afraid that the war will have a destabilizing effect on that region which would cause the world to become a more dangerous place instead of safer. I also am worried that such an action would result in more attacks on the US and US interests not less because of the polarizing effect it will have on the Muslim. A war in Iraq could be just what Al Qaeda wants as it would make them even more sympathetic to the Muslim World.

 

[Hoober]

Originally posted by: ROTC1983

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It would be interesting to see how many would favor war if they or their kids had to be in the first wave.

If my country needed me, I would go with the first wave.

Yeah, me too...

I as well.

 

[Hoober]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There's no question in my mind that Hussien needs to be nuetralized I'm just not sure that we are prepared to go the whole way. We will have to send in an occupational force to secure the whole of Iraq to keep that country from turning into an oasis of anarchy and Islamic Radicalism. If we go it alone or with the help of Britian the cost to do so will be astronimical. Also I'm afraid that the war will have a destabilizing effect on that region which would cause the world to become a more dangerous place instead of safer. I also am worried that such an action would result in more attacks on the US and US interests not less because of the polarizing effect it will have on the Muslim. A war in Iraq could be just what Al Qaeda wants as it would make them even more sympathetic to the Muslim World.

Perhaps we need to step back and look at this. Saddam needs to be neutralized, but you bring up good points about inflaming the rest of the Middle East. It is a hotbed for terrorism; all hidden under the guise of nationalism and patriotism. Big, bad America is coming to stomp on your children and take away your freedoms. A little education for these people would go a long way.

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Soybomb

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: Soybomb
Yeah its a good thing Sketcher because now his Republican Guard is no more....wait a minute....they're still there and we'll probably kill just as many civillians as they will. Seriously at what point in time do you believe we have to assume the people want their government overthrown? Is there a large uprising fighting against his tyrrany?

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. -Voltaire"

This is your Sig is it not Soybomb?... defend, to the death, eh?... Well, at least you'd die for something.

It is indeed, is Iraq squelching your freedom of speech? Mine seems to be alive and kicking despite evil Saddam. For that matter all my presonal freedoms are intact, although I'm worried about new and coming legislation from our own government. Almost sounds like you're glorifying death. You may think to die battling is heroic or patriotic, but its a worthless death if its not for a just cause and at the moment I certainly don't feel Iraq is a just cause. If I've misunderstood what you were trying to say then in relation to my sig please let me know.

I think perhaps we've miscommunicated some intention between us. My reference to your Sig is to note that you'd espouse fighting to the death for someone else's right to speak, which to me means that you value the right to expressing an opinion even if the opinion is contrary to your own. If that is true, then to misunderstand the plight of the Iraqi people by conveying on us what you assume to be the misplaced responsibility of determining when and if they should be relieved of Saddam is a different argument altogether. Iraqi's are put to death for expressing contrary views to Saddam's dictatorship. Do not base their plight on a valuation of how much you "hear" the people speaking out - for they cannot. To do so is death.

I respect your viewpoint that you do not believe our attention towards Iraq is a just cause. I do not agree with you, but your thinking isn't entirely without its merit as long as you do more than just say yea or nay. But this thread isn't about proving war right or wrong or our involvement in Iraq right or wrong. I will say however, that I support our attention towards Iraq but I do not claim to understand all of the political implications this involvement brings.

My intention is not to glorify death. Death for a worthy cause? A cause I would say is worthy, you would not. A cause you would say is worthy, I might not. To die for one's own personal conviction is worthy in each of our own minds. But when that death for one's conviction kills others, the validity of our sensibilities is questioned and at the heart of the matter is whether or not your conviction is based on an individual small world perception or a more encompassing perspective of a greater freedom.

I posted, not to argue the morals of war but to encourage people to think beyond the witty anti-war slogans and picket lines. Too often those who are yelling the loudest about freedom from oppression and freedom of speech are those are are not willing to put their lives on the line for it. Glorified? No. Necessary? At times.