The Microsoft OS Monopoly, Are you in favor or not?

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Recneps

Senior member
Jul 2, 2000
232
0
0
<<&quot;the only thing I'd rather own than Windows is English... because then I could charge you $249 [for the] right to speak English, and then I could charge you an upgrade fee when I add new letters like N and T.&quot; >>

And now you can pay to sell 'X' and 'P' office upgrade for 500$ dollars when it is 99% the same as the last office you purchased for 500 dollars. Oh and don't for get paying for the upgrade to include 'ME' with its 5 new wizards.
 

piku

Diamond Member
May 30, 2000
4,049
1
0
warcleric - How is that? All I am saying is that if any other OS is going to be successful they are going to have to be completley compatible with Windows. How does that hinder development? There are plenty of markets that have to follow a certain standard but still have plenty of innovations and fierce competition.



<< &quot;Software is like sex, its better when it's free&quot; >>


Yeah, too bad the only free kind you get is dirty and from skanks.
 

piku

Diamond Member
May 30, 2000
4,049
1
0


<< And now you can pay to sell 'X' and 'P' office upgrade for 500$ dollars when it is 99% the same as the last office you purchased for 500 dollars. Oh and don't for get paying for the upgrade to include 'ME' with its 5 new wizards. >>


Who says you have to buy it? Is there a law or something where you live that forces you to buy each and every Microsoft upgrade that comes out?
 

DaHitman

Golden Member
Apr 6, 2001
1,158
0
0


<< UnixFreak,

Ok, buddy. Let's see you try to support a company with a few hundred workstations to run entirely on Linux. You need to train the people, find software, and be able to walk people through problems remotely. Good luck.
>>



Got news for you &quot;buddy&quot;...

I work for a fortune 50 company... until mid 90's we were a honest to goodness Unix shop with Unix down to the desktops... We used Netscape for Web and Email, and use a product called Applix that did office functionality (Wordproc, Spread, Present, Graphics Edit, Small GUI Database apps, etc) We also used (still do) Unix based Framemaker for our electronics publishing group...

We had everything standardized, and were able to centralize home directories, and sofware distribution using stuff like NFS, and NIS etc.. If a clinet desktop dies, we just reinstall another one, when the user logged in... it mounted their home directory and all their applications and they had their whole setup back with all their data and preferences... it worked 1000 times better than microsofts failed attempt at buggy roaming profiles ever did.

In the Mid '90's we switched to Windows NT on the desktop, and our SUPPORT COSTS HAVE SKYROCKETED! We are now supporting the same number of users with MANY more TIMES the support people.

Our CEO is starting to ask our IT managemet about Linux because we are a strong IBM shop and they have lots of influence with our technology direction... and because of IBM's support Linux is being discussed from the highest levels of our company... I bet that the same scenario is being played out in other large companies as well.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
A few quotes from the story I mentioned:

&quot;Morris' plan was to bring the Project Sherman gang to the Valley and expose them firsthand to Microsoft's influence. He turned to Gary Reback, asking him to arrange a series of hush-hush meetings with industry figures who could address the question with authority. Nothing gave Reback more kicks than a covert operation where he was pulling the strings. Within days, he had assembled a Murderer's Row of Valley executives, financiers, and technologists who would parade before Morris' group during a single daylong session. Reback told his witnesses that the meeting was important and that it might help influence the DOJ, but he told them little else; not the names of the economists and lawyers they'd be addressing, or who their fellow witnesses would be, or the identity of the meeting's sponsor. To keep the bigwigs from running into one another at Wilson Sonsini's offices, he instructed them to enter and exit through different lobbies.

The tutorial the Project Shermanites received on the appointed late-March day was wide-ranging, and, according to one person who attended, they reacted to certain parts of it with shock and amazement. They heard from Eric Schmidt, the CEO of Novell, about the vulnerability of being a firm that both competes with, and is reliant on, Microsoft software. They heard from the Apple software wizard Avie Tevanian about why conduct remedies like opening up Microsoft's APIs wouldn't accomplish anything. They heard from Sun's Bill Joy (who had no idea that his company was paying for this show) about why Tevanian was right, but why splitting Microsoft into three identical firms, the so-called Baby Bills solution, might be worse: &quot;I keep thinking of 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice.'&quot; They heard from John Doerr about Microsoft's recent habit of gathering together the Valley's VCs and offering helpful suggestions about which technologies it might be advisable to invest in and which might be best left to Redmond. &quot;My firm's policy is never to back a venture that competes directly with Microsoft,&quot; Doerr said. &quot;Only damned fools stand in the way of oncoming trains.&quot;

And they heard from Jim Clark. &quot;When I left Silicon Graphics I had a net worth of $16 million and I invested $5 million to start Netscape,&quot; Clark said. &quot;Microsoft has practically killed Netscape. I'll never invest in another thing to compete with them. I'll never touch another market that has anything remotely to do with Microsoft's path. And if I'd known four years ago what I know now - that Microsoft would destroy us and that the government wouldn't do anything about it for three fcking years - I never would've started Netscape in the first place.&quot;

A few weeks later, Morris and a select subset of his experts (big guns plus Saloner; no Reback) flew out to Washington for their audience with the DOJ. It was now the middle of April. Four months had passed since the consent-decree case had climaxed, and Morris knew little more about where the DOJ's investigation stood than what he read in the papers. Certainly the trustbusters seemed eager to see him: Klein had called twice to try and move up the date of the presentation, and, arriving at the DOJ, Morris found himself playing to a packed house. Klein, his number two Doug Melamed, Rubinfeld, Malone, and Boies were there, along with a swarm of junior antitrust-division staffers, all crowded into the conference room next to Klein's office.

Taking seats across the table from Klein and his deputies, Morris' team proceeded to outline the case they believed the DOJ should file. Just as the Netscape white papers had argued, the core of that case was illegal monopoly maintenance and monopoly extension - a violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act. For years, Microsoft had leveraged its power over the desktop to invade adjacent markets, from productivity applications to server operating systems. Sometimes those markets were tremendously valuable in their own right; Office alone raked in billions each year for Gates' company, and Microsoft's next target - the server space in which Sun was a leader - was even richer. Other times, the market itself was worth next to nothing in terms of dollars and cents, but controlling it was essential to preserving Microsoft's dominance on the desktop. Browsers were one example of this. But Java was an equally compelling one. By letting programmers write software that would run on any OS, Java threatened to render Windows irrelevant, if not obsolete. Microsoft's response had been to license Java from Sun and then violate that license by creating a Windows-only variant of the technology in an attempt to subvert its cross-platform purpose. With both Java and the browser, as Saloner put it later, Microsoft's MO was the same: &quot;We will embrace it, we will make it ours, we will apply it to our operating system, and we will kill it. We will do what we must to protect the mothership - the OS.&quot;

The Sun presentation ran for nearly four hours. Deploying his experts to make most of the arguments - Reasoner and Sohn on the law, Carlton on the economics - Morris tried to anticipate and shoot down Microsoft's defenses. In particular, the team addressed the question of harm, of who'd been hurt by Microsoft's actions. After all, the company would say, consumers are happy; prices are falling; high tech is thriving; so is Sun, by the way. What that picture left out, however, was the damage to innovation - the products left undeveloped, the areas of technology left unexplored. For example, there was almost no R&amp;D on operating systems anymore. What did that imply for the future of technology? And how long could innovation continue to flourish in an industry suffused with fear?

&quot;I went out to Silicon Valley,&quot; Mike Sohn told Klein and his team. &quot;In all my years practicing antitrust law, I have never seen such powerful people so scared. It utterly amazed me.&quot;



 

UnixFreak

Platinum Member
Nov 27, 2000
2,008
0
76


<< UnixFreak,

Ok, buddy. Let's see you try to support a company with a few hundred workstations to run entirely on Linux. You need to train the people, find software, and be able to walk people through problems remotely. Good luck.

>>



Which only proves my point. People would be required to learn something which is pretty difficult, from what I have seen. Like I said, these are the people who think M$ is a monopoly. I would believe it more, if there werent other competent operating systems to choose from. Just because learning new things is required, does not mean Microsoft is keeping you from using it.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
DaHitman,

thanks for helping me prove a point. Once upon a time you were entirely based on Unix. Now you aren't. Why not go back? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T Monopoly, anyone?
 

UnixFreak

Platinum Member
Nov 27, 2000
2,008
0
76


<< Yeah, too bad the only free kind you get is dirty and from skanks. >>




What a terrible way to describe your mother.


EDIT: Do you pay for it?? Just curious.
 

warcleric

Banned
May 31, 2000
2,384
0
0
Piku: Open Source = Free, perhaps you should have said MS should sell their source code to other OS producers.
 

UnixFreak

Platinum Member
Nov 27, 2000
2,008
0
76


<< UnixFreak: someday you will get off your pulpit and realize that Unix boxes crash too. >>




And someday you will actually use Unix, and see what I am talking about. But that would require you to get off your pulpit, and learn something new.
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
1
0
Unix boxes crash, but if you want to compare the frequency to that of a windows box its like getting getting struck by lighting vs. every other way to die



<< Either you work for MS or you're not in the computer field. Scott McNealy had a good line at the Hatch Senate hearings: &quot;the only thing I'd rather own than Windows is English... because then I could charge you $249 [for the] right to speak English, and then I could charge you an upgrade fee when I add new letters like N and T.&quot; >>

Its a cute quote I guess, but really carries no meaning to the arguement. How is Ms a monopoly? I don't work for MS and I'm quite into the computer field. If you're dumb enough to think that because a new version of office is out that you have to have it, its your stupidity, nothing to do with a monopoly. Same with the OS market, their OS is quite popular, but there are lots of alternatives. Why don't you look at some webserver stats and tell me which is more popular IIS or apache. I'd bet most of those apache machines are a unix/linux/bsd machine too. MS isn't a monopoly, far from it. I think they've used some dirty business practices, but they aren't a monopoly.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81


<< The thing is, people use MS because they dont want to learn anything new. Thats the common reasoning people use against using *nix operating systems. they dont want to &quot;learn new things&quot; and its &quot;too complicated&quot; but really, the architecture is so much simpler than MS operating systems. >>



It's not a matter of not wanting to learn new things - it's more a question of whether the benefit is worth the effort. I don't speak Farsi either, and although it would be nice to learn (because knowledge>ignorance), I haven't got the time to do so. For the typical home/casual user, is the effort to learn Unix/Linux worth it? I'm not sure it is, but I don't know enough about those OS's to say for sure. I'm not in the IT field, but a computer is vital to my work - mostly word processing, some database stuff, web-based research, etc., and Windows works just fine for those tasks. I'm not some die-hard MS fan, and some of their business practices are disturbing, but I'd need a very good reason to switch.



<< Anything you can do with windows, you can do faster, and more efficiently, with linux or Unix. >>



Run Quicken, a good word processor, a good browser, and all the games out there right now which run in Windows? Is all the common hardware supported - most video/sound cards, etc.? I'm asking because I don't know, and I'd like to. Thanks in advance for your answer, anyone.
 

noninterleaved

Senior member
Mar 25, 2001
628
0
0
More operating systems = higher development cost = higher price of software.

i think this is a pretty simple equation... also can you imagine the average consumer having to go into a store and find the version of whatever that will run on that os???

Most people like to not have to worry about compatibility. that is why most things aside from computers are pretty standard. standard voltage (at least here in the US), standard gas (for the most part...), standard VHS/DVD, standard cassette tapes... standard CDs...

can you imagine the consumer nightmare if it wasn't for all of these things.

Sometimes I DO wish that windows was a little more flexible in terms of window managers... explorer.exe gets a little old sometimes. Not really interested in running litestep though... I am not that crazy.

 

Praetor

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
4,499
4
81
Personally, I like UnixFreak's sig quote:


<< &quot;Software is like sex, its better when it's free&quot;
- Linus Torvalds.
>>



What? What do you mean that Windows wasn't free?

Seriously though. There is competition. There are the million *nix variants, the BSD systems, plus a few newer OS' built from scratch on the x86 platform. Yes, Windows is the most dominant on the desktop. Why? Because the powers that be at Microsoft were smart, they made deals early on. Top it off, they took the best ideas from other companies, and (attempted to?) improved on them. They made it easy for everybody.

Namuna put it best, it's easier/better to have one OS to code for. Just look how long it takes to get a MacOS port of a PC game half the time.

As for MS continually adding stuff to their system, people ask for it! There was someone on this forum that was complaining that WindowsXP wasn't going to come with some program. (I'll see if I can't find the link and add it later) Even with Microsoft adding all this stuff, are they taking away the ability of other programmers to create their own software that does the same thing and install in Windows? Don't give me the marketing thing, didn't the Blair Witch movie initially become popular due to a grassroots effort?

Linux is getting better, but as it was said, there is a bit of a learning curve and people are resistant to that. I personally think linux is totally cool. I just did my first network install of a box the other day. My next project will be to undertake the &quot;Linux-from-scratch&quot; test and build a system from the ground up without using a pre-made distro. Why? Because it is cool. Because I did grow up with a command-line interface. And because learning it is damned cool and that way I'll completely know my system.

Where's the profitabilty in creating a program that you give away the binary and source free? And create a license saying that any derivatives must follow the same license? Don't get me wrong, I think it's pretty neat that they do it, that way I can learn how to code, but how is it profitable? Remember, businesses look at the bottom line. If they give it away for free, how do people eat? Do they code their open-source software on their off-days from Microsoft?

I like and use 'em both. Both are very powerful, but neither is a monopoly. There is the choice, it's just up to the end-user to make the decision of whether or not it's worth it.
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
1
0


<< ... also can you imagine the average consumer having to go into a store and find the version of whatever that will run on that os??? >>

They also have to pick the right weight oil for their car and then where to put it, if you don't want to have to think at all, you need to hire someone to do that work..... I really don't even see how this pertains to them being a monopoly, but I had to reply
 

Praetor

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 1999
4,499
4
81


<< More operating systems = higher development cost = higher price of software.
<snip>
Most people like to not have to worry about compatibility.
>>



There ya go. In a sense, linux is playing catch up to Windows because Microsoft spearheaded so many technologies. &quot;We've got this really keen idea called USB.&quot; MS: &quot;Oh yeah? Sounds like a cool and froody thing. Let's do it.&quot;

Since their are the dominant OS, they say stuff like that.

But again, linux is getting better. Just look at Mandrake 8.0!
 

SSP

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
17,736
0
0
M$ only has a monopoly on people who are ignorant. I have my flame suit on, but really, MS products are for people who want to spend a lot of money, on a low quality product. If they will continue to fork out the cash, why should they change?? The thing is, people use MS because they dont want to learn anything new. Thats the common reasoning people use against using *nix operating systems. they dont want to &quot;learn new things&quot; and its &quot;too complicated&quot; but really, the architecture is so much simpler than MS operating systems. People just get used to Windows, and dont want to learn something new, so they bend over and pay the big bucks for their needs. Server going slow? buy new hardware. New M$ operating system comes out, (which, incidently, is slower) so they fork out the big bucks for the new OS, plus the new hardware, while us Unix Guys laugh, as our OS's get faster with every release. People get what they deserve. Anything you can do with windows, you can do faster, and more efficiently, with linux or Unix. Plus, you get stability to boot. M$ is not a monopoly anymore, get over it.

I don't know about the rest, but I haven't paid money for any MS products I use. That being said... I DID pay 100 bucks for Red Hat. I like to screw around with it from time to time, but for everyday use, I prefer win2k. Just like many windows users, I play a lot of games so Linux is out of the question. By the way, I didn't notice any speed difference between RedHat and Win 98. But I didn't tweak Linux so that might be it (it HD trashed way more then windows though).
 

noninterleaved

Senior member
Mar 25, 2001
628
0
0


<< They also have to pick the right weight oil for their car and then where to put it, if you don't want to have to think at all, you need to hire someone to do that work..... I really don't even see how this pertains to them being a monopoly, but I had to reply >>



It pertains because I tend to think that a desktop OS is a &quot;natural monopoly.&quot; It is to people's benefit to only have one OS.

As far as the right weight of oil... this is a good point, people pick the wrong one all the time and although they don't know it, they are screwing up their engine. Thanks, I think this reinforces my argument nicely, although I am sure you did not intend for it to.
 

Recneps

Senior member
Jul 2, 2000
232
0
0
If M$ was not a monopoly I could go to a main stream store and buy a main stream x86 PC without there crap software installed and paid for. Sure I could buy 2 OS but that would be a waste and I would still have paid for windows. The comepting OS can't even gain market share when they give away there product which is many people say is better. Just because there are alternates does not mean the company is not a monoploy. It not only is the OS that is the problem it is them craming other products in with it to kill off compition.

Of course people do not have to buy MS products but that is irrlevant. Other companies that have been broken up for being a monopoly didn't require you to buy there oil/gas or there telephone serivce, but if you didn't your telephone, car, house, ect, or PC in this case is made close to or totally usless with out there product.
 

Soybomb

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2000
9,505
1
0


<< If M$ was not a monopoly I could go to a main stream store and buy a main stream x86 PC without there crap software installed and paid for. >>

So then AOL has a monopoly on the ISP business too?
 

NakaNaka

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2000
6,304
1
0
Ok I've been the biggest supporter of not breaking up Microsoft ...

They have a better product and no one has made an OS that is better than Windows. Microsoft has a good operating system and we might joke about &quot;WinBlows&quot; and how much it crashes but it is still the best consumer OS out there ...

When someone comes out with a better consumer OS that is compatible, fine by me. But until them go MS.
 

bandXtrb

Banned
May 27, 2001
2,169
0
0
Microsoft wants the same leverage they have in the OS market on the Internet, with their .NET initiative, but chances are it may not work out that way because of the nature of the internet where open-source stuff is king.
 

NakaNaka

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2000
6,304
1
0
ya MS won't succeed with .net like OS but they will try and put a lot of money into it ... Actually, them failing with .net will probably help them with their monopoly case, even if it is about Operating Systems ... As it is they probably aren't getting broken up
 

piku

Diamond Member
May 30, 2000
4,049
1
0


<< What a terrible way to describe your mother. >>


What the hell was that for? Not that I'm offended by it, but that could be the lamest thing I have read in a while.



<< Piku: Open Source = Free, perhaps you should have said MS should sell their source code to other OS producers. >>


Well first off open source doesn't have to mean free.

But yes, that is what I was getting at. MS should open their code so that other developers could make their own versions of it. They just have to open up the kernal and such, just enough to allow competitors to make their own compatible OS (any additional program, from calculator to the ping function would stay closed source, since they aren't part of the operating system and are MS's own programs. Really they wouldn't be making much avaible to the public).


I just came to realize that I may have brought on the assumption that I support open source. Trust me, that is as far from the truth as you could possibly get.
 
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