The Microsoft Surface Tablet thread.

Page 18 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

dagamer34

Platinum Member
Aug 15, 2005
2,591
0
71
Hard drive makers got sued. They ended up settling, and paying.

That's different. When you buy a computer that has 250gb, you don't expect 250gb free, maybe 220gb because stuff is pre-installed, which is why the lawsuit won't go anywhere.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
That's different. When you buy a computer that has 250gb, you don't expect 250gb free, maybe 220gb because stuff is pre-installed, which is why the lawsuit won't go anywhere.

When you buy a computer with a 250GB drive, do you expect to only see 125GB of it when you first turn it on? For the majority of users, those 16GB are gone, they have no reasonable hope of getting the remaining space back. If Microsoft advertises it as a 32GB device, I have an expectation that I can copy over say... 24GB of data (accounting for GB v GiB, OS and preinstalled apps), and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation, I couldn't do that on the Surface. They should have sold it as the capacity that it has, 16GB.
 
Oct 19, 2000
17,861
4
81
When you buy a computer with a 250GB drive, do you expect to only see 125GB of it when you first turn it on? For the majority of users, those 16GB are gone, they have no reasonable hope of getting the remaining space back. If Microsoft advertises it as a 32GB device, I have an expectation that I can copy over say... 24GB of data (accounting for GB v GiB, OS and preinstalled apps), and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation, I couldn't do that on the Surface. They should have sold it as the capacity that it has, 16GB.

I agree that only having 16GB free of an advertised 32GB is a bit much, but not worthy of a lawsuit. The question is, where exactly do you draw the line? How much free space is OK and how much isn't?
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
I agree that only having 16GB free of an advertised 32GB is a bit much, but not worthy of a lawsuit. The question is, where exactly do you draw the line? How much free space is OK and how much isn't?

It is variable. Having only 8GB used on a 16GB device is different from having those same 8GBs used on a 1TB device.

Let's look at is another way. HALF the advertised space is used up out of the box, and for most people, they aren't getting it back. I assume that you can uninstall Office, and that would buy you some space. And maybe turn off hibernate and kill that file, that buys you some more, but your average citizen isn't going to do that. They advertised it as 32GB, they either need to make sure that the customer is getting more than HALF of that space, or bundle in a mSD card.
 

Aganazer

Member
Oct 31, 2012
67
0
0
I agree that only having 16GB free of an advertised 32GB is a bit much, but not worthy of a lawsuit. The question is, where exactly do you draw the line? How much free space is OK and how much isn't?

I don't think anyone is going to be prepared to objectively answer that question.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
I don't think anyone is going to be prepared to objectively answer that question.

No, you're right. It is a little subjective, a little like vulgarity, profanity and pornography in that we know it when we see it.

But, I think that we can all agree that having 50% of the advertised space taken up when you first fire up the device is over the line. Honestly, I would say that no more than 20% of the advertised space should be taken up. Maybe even closer to 15%.

And if we use percentages instead of hard and fast numbers, then that can be applied to all sizes of drives. We get into a larger discussion when we start discussing GB vs GiB. In converting from the commonly used GB, you lose just over 6.8% of the 'capacity' when you switch to GiB simply because of the math! And that 15% number above is accounting for the GB/GiB switch
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,218
661
136
The lawsuit is stupid..


The BN Nook app on the Surface is awesome. I love having more choices in buying and reading books on my tablet.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
Probably be better if they advertised available space rather than total space.

And that is the point. They said 'This is a 32GB Surface'. And while that is true, that there is a chip (or two) that total up to 32GB, you only get half that to actually use.

The drawback of course is that then they couldn't do things like say 'The Surface is $499 and it's 32GB, the iPad is $499 and it's 16GB! Ha, take that!'. Although at this point, the 16GB iPad and the 32GB Surface have roughly the same usable space.

And even with the 48GB Surface (errr, i mean 64GB) you are still losing 25% of the advertised space!

Seriously, they should have done the following with the Surface RT:
1: Made it all Metro from day 1, none of this legacy UI crap
2: Rebuilt Office so that it was a Metro App

In Microsoft's haste to remind us all that Windows 8 is NO COMPROMISES!!! They perpetually compromise on a unified and GOOD user experience in the interest of kitchen sinking an ARM tablet.
 

Aganazer

Member
Oct 31, 2012
67
0
0
Marketing will always use whatever numbers make them sound the best unless forced to do otherwise by an outside force.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
Marketing will always use whatever numbers make them sound the best unless forced to do otherwise by an outside force.

And that is also the point. The number they are using is misleading, and they should correct it. If they have to be forced to do so because of a lawsuit, or alter their promotional materials and box labels and everything else in order to avoid said suit, I don't care, but at the end of the day, they are not delivering what they are selling.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,989
8,701
136
...The drawback of course is that then they couldn't do things like say 'The Surface is $499 and it's 32GB, the iPad is $499 and it's 16GB! Ha, take that!'. Although at this point, the 16GB iPad and the 32GB Surface have roughly the same usable space...

I think Android and iOS tablets and phones should have to do the same as well.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Gotta laugh about the storage lawsuit. MS throws in a free copy of Office which probably takes up a few gigs and people get pissed because it takes up a few gigs. Uninstall stuff if you want more space. Win8RT only takes up around 7GB, so its not like the OS is taking up all that space.

All MS has to say is the internal memory chip is a standard 32GB and the lawsuit is over. They even have an external SD card option, which is increasingly rare these days.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Gotta laugh about the storage lawsuit. MS throws in a free copy of Office which probably takes up a few gigs and people get pissed because it takes up a few gigs. Uninstall stuff if you want more space. Win8RT only takes up around 7GB, so its not like the OS is taking up all that space.

All MS has to say is the internal memory chip is a standard 32GB and the lawsuit is over. They even have an external SD card option, which is increasingly rare these days.

Thing is there's more than just "a few gigs" between 7 and 16.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Thing is there's more than just "a few gigs" between 7 and 16.

And office isn't the only thing that comes preinstalled. My point still stands. All MS has to do is show the chip is a standard 32GB module and that's that.
 

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
9,427
16
81
On the one hand... having half the advertised space is ridiculous.

On the other hand... SD slot, so who cares?
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
I think Android and iOS tablets and phones should have to do the same as well.

I don't disagree there, if one has to, they all should, you're right.

I will just put out this information:

16GB = roughly 14.9GiB
I have about 13.7 GB (how the phone labels it) usable space on my iPhone 4 16GB.

Microsoft, Apple, and Google all have notices on their sites stating that formatted capacity may be less than advertised. None of them give detail outlining how much space a user can expect to see upon first boot.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
And office isn't the only thing that comes preinstalled. My point still stands. All MS has to do is show the chip is a standard 32GB module and that's that.

Why exactly would saying 'The internal storage is 32GB' make any difference? When was the last time you bought an any capacity anything, only gotten half the space, and then were ok with that?

On the one hand... having half the advertised space is ridiculous.

True.

On the other hand... SD slot, so who cares?

Um, they aren't selling me a tablet as '32GB Surface (if you put in a 16GB mSD card to augment all the space we wasted on legacy crap)!' They are selling me a 32GB Surface and leaving me with a half full drive (drive is just the quickest way to say 'storage unit' when talking about computers).
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Why exactly would saying 'The internal storage is 32GB' make any difference? When was the last time you bought an any capacity anything, only gotten half the space, and then were ok with that?

What is the definition of capacity? It is how much data a device can store. MS states it has a 32GB capacity, but much of that is used with preinstalled software and the OS. There was no claim made to 32GB of free space upon first boot (MS does give free space numbers, see below), so I don't see the issue here.

Uninstall the free, pack-in programs if you don't want them.

Break it down:
32GB in decimal, only 29GB in binary (for any device), so 29GB actual
5GB for backup/recovery
8GB for OS + Apps + Office

Then if you check MS's Surface FAQ on their website, they clearly advertise the free space:
http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en...ers-and-online-storage/surface-disk-space-FAQ

More space can be freed by uninstalling Office and other apps.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
What is the definition of capacity? It is how much data a device can store. MS states it has a 32GB capacity, but much of that is used with preinstalled software and the OS. There was no claim made to 32GB of free space upon first boot (MS does give free space numbers, see below), so I don't see the issue here.

Uninstall the free, pack-in programs if you don't want them.

Break it down:
32GB in decimal, only 29GB in binary (for any device), so 29GB actual
5GB for backup/recovery
8GB for OS + Apps + Office

Then if you check MS's Surface FAQ on their website, they clearly advertise the free space:
http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en...ers-and-online-storage/surface-disk-space-FAQ

More space can be freed by uninstalling Office and other apps.

I think it is reasonable to expect that when you open a new device, you will have more than 50% of the advertised space available to you. And I think that it is UNreasonable to expect that the user needs to uninstall tons of stuff on first boot, not because it was a value-add tack-on from the OEM, but because it is taking up an absurd amount of the existing limited space.

However, the fact that they do make the space situation clear on another page of their site does work in their favor, and probably nullifies the suit. BUT, in my opinion, doesn't change the larger problem, which is that half the usable space is taken up on first boot due to the compromises that MS made in the development process.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
I think it is reasonable to expect that when you open a new device, you will have more than 50% of the advertised space available to you. And I think that it is UNreasonable to expect that the user needs to uninstall tons of stuff on first boot, not because it was a value-add tack-on from the OEM, but because it is taking up an absurd amount of the existing limited space.

If this was the standard industry-wide, fine. But it's not. It is in fact standard to buy a device and find a bunch of space taken up by the operating system and other software.

The lawsuit is absurd.
 

Aganazer

Member
Oct 31, 2012
67
0
0
When was the last time you bought an any capacity anything, only gotten half the space, and then were ok with that?

When was the last time you bought any computing device (not just a component part) that had the full advertised capacity free? Manufacturers have been preloading things since the first PC's.

Its like buying a car and complaining that the gas tank is half full so that you weren't able to fill it with the full advertised tank capacity. Well duh... of course you can't or the car wouldn't have started.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,989
8,701
136
When was the last time you bought any computing device (not just a component part) that had the full advertised capacity free? Manufacturers have been preloading things since the first PC's.

Its like buying a car and complaining that the gas tank is half full so that you weren't able to fill it with the full advertised tank capacity. Well duh... of course you can't or the car wouldn't have started.

No its not, thats a terrible analogy. :biggrin:
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |