The Microsoft Surface Tablet thread.

[Charles Kozierok]

A good analogy would be buying a house that has a 500 sf kitchen and then complaining that there's only 350 sf of "free kitchen space" because the rest is taken up by a sink, fridge, oven and cabinets.

Those things are not required to have a kitchen, and you can take them out if you want, but it tends to make the result bigger, but less functional.

The Surface isn't being advertised in a way any different from any other computer.

 

[Red Storm]

A good analogy would be buying a house that has a 500 sf kitchen and then complaining that there's only 350 sf of "free kitchen space" because the rest is taken up by a sink, fridge, oven and cabinets.

An even better analogy would be to compare to that their competitors, who only take a small portion of that total space, not half.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Depends on what capabilities it has compared to its competitors.

It does have an expansion slot. You can uninstall some of the software.

I see nothing deceptive here. If you buy the machine and think there's not enough free space, take it back to the store. The lawsuit is just a moneygrab for lawyers.

 

[Red Storm]

I don't think it's deceptive, I also don't think a lawsuit is needed. I just think that if your OS bundle takes up half the available space without even putting anything else on the tablet, then your lowest storage capacity should be increased. Same could be said for the 8GB Nexus 7 and 4.

 

[TheStu]

When was the last time you bought any computing device (not just a component part) that had the full advertised capacity free? Manufacturers have been preloading things since the first PC's.

Its like buying a car and complaining that the gas tank is half full so that you weren't able to fill it with the full advertised tank capacity. Well duh... of course you can't or the car wouldn't have started.

When was the last time you bought a computing device and had HALF the advertised capacity already taken up?

 

[Aganazer]

No its not, thats a terrible analogy. :biggrin:

Crap it is, but its much better than the one I wanted to use about the Thai prostitute that turned out to be a transvestite. Talk about false advertising! The moral of the story being that you should always take the product on a test drive before buying.

 

[WelshBloke]

Crap it is, but its much better than the one I wanted to use about the Thai prostitute that turned out to be a transvestite. Talk about false advertising! The moral of the story being that you should always take the product on a test drive before buying.

This would have been a great analogy! It might not have been strictly relevant but it would have been entertaining.

 

[dagamer34]

When was the last time you bought a computing device and had HALF the advertised capacity already taken up?

I think Ed Bott counters this argument pretty well: http://www.edbott.com/weblog/2012/11/lawyer-files-frivolous-lawsuit-over-surface-storage-space/

I don't think Microsoft was being deceptive. Sure, we'd all love more free space on our devices, but the reasonable expectation these days is that you will never get 32GB of space on a computer that is advertised as having 32GB of free space. If it were commonplace for manufacturers to advertise free space then Microsoft would be in trouble, but they don't.

Not only that, but if someone doesn't like a product, they can return it. I find it silly we live in a world where it's lawsuit first instead of common sense. No one was harmed because the Surface only had 16GB free space and everyone today is still within the 30-day return period. This is idiotic.

 

[Red Storm]

I don't think it has anything to do with deception, just poor judgement. The same way Google got flamed for their 8GB devices (the OS takes up roughly 3GB), Microsoft deserves to be flamed for having their OS bundle take up half the storage space of the lowest model. They should have made 64GB the starting point IMHO.

 

[MrX8503]

Windows RT has half its storage not available due to the OS. Other cases of missing storage is only a few gigs, not half.

MS deserves to be flamed for not being clearer about this. I didn't even know about this until now. The avg joe would most certainly be pissed.

 

[dagamer34]

I don't think it has anything to do with deception, just poor judgement. The same way Google got flamed for their 8GB devices (the OS takes up roughly 3GB), Microsoft deserves to be flamed for having their OS bundle take up half the storage space of the lowest model. They should have made 64GB the starting point IMHO.

That's why the 32GB storage model is the same price as the 16GB iPad. And again, 64GB microSD card for $50. People need to stop complaining. Companies are not charities designed to give you quality products for rock bottom prices.

 

[Chrono]

Ok, should I sue HTC because my one x only has ~12 gigs free instead of the 16GB that was specified then? I smell class action lawsuit. Who's with me? Same with my Lumia 920, only has 29GB free. WTF is the other 3GB? HUH?

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I don't think it's deceptive, I also don't think a lawsuit is needed. I just think that if your OS bundle takes up half the available space without even putting anything else on the tablet, then your lowest storage capacity should be increased. Same could be said for the 8GB Nexus 7 and 4.

That's reasonable.

 

[rockyct]

Windows RT has half its storage not available due to the OS. Other cases of missing storage is only a few gigs, not half.

MS deserves to be flamed for not being clearer about this. I didn't even know about this until now. The avg joe would most certainly be pissed.

As said above 8 GB Nexus has about half missing.

 

[Subyman]

Windows RT has half its storage not available due to the OS. Other cases of missing storage is only a few gigs, not half.

MS deserves to be flamed for not being clearer about this. I didn't even know about this until now. The avg joe would most certainly be pissed.

Its not just the OS. I'm not familiar with the RT structure, but 5GB is back up. I'm wondering if the back up is opt out?

However, like I broke down earlier, when you look at the numbers you can see how they get to the 16GB number. In binary count 32GB is 29GB, so there is 3GB right off the top for nothing (we are used to this.) 5GB for back up, 24GB. 8GB for OS, MS Office, and pack-in apps. So, the entire OS, Office suite, and all apps accounts for around 28% of the usable space. Still a lot, but a far cry from half.

I've read people have created a backup on an SD card and were able to remove the recovery partition, which frees up the 5GB of reserved space. I haven't seen any numbers regarding Office's size, but I'd say it is at least a gig. Take off the page file, another 1GB, but a lot of these are features that speed up and secure the system.

It is misleading to compare the Surface to a Nexus or iOS device due to the much more capable OS. Sure iOS is only 1.4GB or so, but Windows RT is a much more feature packed OS. I'd throw in a $20 32GB SD card and call it a day instead of trying to sue...

 

[rockyct]

Its not just the OS. I'm not familiar with the RT structure, but 5GB is back up. I'm wondering if the back up is opt out?

However, like I broke down earlier, when you look at the numbers you can see how they get to the 16GB number. In binary count 32GB is 29GB, so there is 3GB right off the top for nothing (we are used to this.) 5GB for back up, 24GB. 8GB for OS, MS Office, and pack-in apps. So, the entire OS, Office suite, and all apps accounts for around 28% of the usable space. Still a lot, but a far cry from half.

I've read people have created a backup on an SD card and were able to remove the recovery partition, which frees up the 5GB of reserved space. I haven't seen any numbers regarding Office's size, but I'd say it is at least a gig. Take off the page file, another 1GB, but a lot of these are features that speed up and secure the system.

It is misleading to compare the Surface to a Nexus or iOS device due to the much more capable OS. Sure iOS is only 1.4GB or so, but Windows RT is a much more feature packed OS. I'd throw in a $20 32GB SD card and call it a day instead of trying to sue...

Office is a tad under 8 GB according to this guy: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012...t-better-and-a-bit-worse-than-microsoft-says/

 

[Red Storm]

Its not just the OS. I'm not familiar with the RT structure, but 5GB is back up. I'm wondering if the back up is opt out?

However, like I broke down earlier, when you look at the numbers you can see how they get to the 16GB number. In binary count 32GB is 29GB, so there is 3GB right off the top for nothing (we are used to this.) 5GB for back up, 24GB. 8GB for OS, MS Office, and pack-in apps. So, the entire OS, Office suite, and all apps accounts for around 28% of the usable space. Still a lot, but a far cry from half.

I've read people have created a backup on an SD card and were able to remove the recovery partition, which frees up the 5GB of reserved space. I haven't seen any numbers regarding Office's size, but I'd say it is at least a gig. Take off the page file, another 1GB, but a lot of these are features that speed up and secure the system.

It is misleading to compare the Surface to a Nexus or iOS device due to the much more capable OS. Sure iOS is only 1.4GB or so, but Windows RT is a much more feature packed OS. I'd throw in a $20 32GB SD card and call it a day instead of trying to sue...

How is RT more feature packed than iOS or Android?

 

[WelshBloke]

How is RT more feature packed than iOS or Android?

But... But... Office...?

 

[MrX8503]

Its not just the OS. I'm not familiar with the RT structure, but 5GB is back up. I'm wondering if the back up is opt out?

However, like I broke down earlier, when you look at the numbers you can see how they get to the 16GB number. In binary count 32GB is 29GB, so there is 3GB right off the top for nothing (we are used to this.) 5GB for back up, 24GB. 8GB for OS, MS Office, and pack-in apps. So, the entire OS, Office suite, and all apps accounts for around 28% of the usable space. Still a lot, but a far cry from half.

I've read people have created a backup on an SD card and were able to remove the recovery partition, which frees up the 5GB of reserved space. I haven't seen any numbers regarding Office's size, but I'd say it is at least a gig. Take off the page file, another 1GB, but a lot of these are features that speed up and secure the system.

It is misleading to compare the Surface to a Nexus or iOS device due to the much more capable OS. Sure iOS is only 1.4GB or so, but Windows RT is a much more feature packed OS. I'd throw in a $20 32GB SD card and call it a day instead of trying to sue...

I know where the space goes. It doesn't matter how MS gets there. It's still nearly half of the tablet's space gone. MS could easily avoid this by not trying to seem like they have value by saying they have 32GB compared to competitors when in fact it's 16GB.

No matter how you slice it, they weren't clear about it. When you're not clear about something, that just pisses people off.

 

[shabby]

Ok, should I sue HTC because my one x only has ~12 gigs free instead of the 16GB that was specified then? I smell class action lawsuit. Who's with me? Same with my Lumia 920, only has 29GB free. WTF is the other 3GB? HUH?

You get 14.7gb of usable space from a 16gb nand chip, you also probably have around 1-1.5gb of app space in the /data directory for a total of 13.0-13.5gb of usable space from 14.7gb, that is reasonable.

 

[Subyman]

How is RT more feature packed than iOS or Android?

But... But... Office...?

Laugh if you want, but having Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and OneNote on a tablet with a pack-in keyboard is a huge feature for a lot of people, especially in the business world. As for other features: flash support, USB port that you can plug practically anything into (including an iPad, which is read as a camera right now), HDMI video out, microSD card slot (becoming increasingly rare these days on tablets), multi-tasking is faster (according to anand), two apps can be shown at the same time, command prompt access to run custom batch files, native mouse support, registry is accessible, and other features that are rarely or never seen in tablet OSes.

Anand updated his Surface review to include a break down of the sizes. Office was ~800MB and Windows RT was ~6.5GB.

 

[WelshBloke]

]Laugh if you want, but having Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and OneNote on a tablet with a pack-in keyboard is a huge feature for a lot of people, especially in the business world.[/B] As for other features: flash support, USB port that you can plug practically anything into (including an iPad, which is read as a camera right now), HDMI video out, microSD card slot (becoming increasingly rare these days on tablets), multi-tasking is faster (according to anand), two apps can be shown at the same time, command prompt access to run custom batch files, native mouse support, registry is accessible, and other features that are rarely or never seen in tablet OSes.

Anand updated his Surface review to include a break down of the sizes. Office was ~800MB and Windows RT was ~6.5GB.

If you say so, although theres other solutions that would do a better job for office.


Edit: I'm just a bit jaded by the "but...but...office" argument. People are doing it for W8 phones as well. Like editing a big excel spreadsheet on a 4 inch screen is going to be pleasant no matter how good the app is.

 

[Subyman]

If you say so, although theres other solutions that would do a better job for office.


Edit: I'm just a bit jaded by the "but...but...office" argument. People are doing it for W8 phones as well. Like editing a big excel spreadsheet on a 4 inch screen is going to be pleasant no matter how good the app is.

I agree. Personally, I never really use Office and am certainly not buying a Surface right now. I can, however, see the merit for the business sector or students. I think MS is on the right track, but as always, it takes them a bit of time to get the kinks worked out.

 

[WelshBloke]

I agree. Personally, I never really use Office and am certainly not buying a Surface right now. I can, however, see the merit for the business sector or students. I think MS is on the right track, but as always, it takes them a bit of time to get the kinks worked out.

I think MS have misjudged what people want out of a tablet.

I just dont think most people want their tablet to be a crappy version of a laptop with a touchscreen.

I think MS are trying way too hard to cover too many bases at once and slightly missing the target on all of them.

 

[finbarqs]

I think MS have misjudged what people want out of a tablet.

I just dont think most people want their tablet to be a crappy version of a laptop with a touchscreen.

I think MS are trying way too hard to cover too many bases at once and slightly missing the target on all of them.

I agree. It would've been fine if they banked on the metro UI. But adding the desktop feature is a complete mess. Imagine teaching your grandmother how to use this... "make sure you're not in the desktop mode..."

Seriously, the 'ease of use' is a joke. People are going to be completely confused. "how do I bring up my other programs? Swipe from the empty area on the left, and bring it back until it sticks" That'll make the avg grand mother scared of electronics..