The Microsoft Surface Tablet thread.

[Zink]

Unfortunately that experience is a bit wonky.

And a bit overpriced. For some reason Asus has made it so that the Vivio Tab RT is only available in a bundle with the keyboard dock for $600. The TF300 is the same hardware with Android and it's widely available without the dock at $350. The competitive iPad sells for $400. Only Microsoft and Asus seem to have a low cost Windows RT tablet widely available at big retailers from what I can see. The iPad gets criticism for being expensive and these prices are so far from competitive it's like no one is even trying with Windows RT.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Probably the dummest post I've read in this thread.

Have a lot of hands on time with desktop apps on a tablet? Ever owned a WinXP Tablet edition device? Ever seen how dumbest is spelled?

 

[lkailburn]

Hahaha whoops sorry. Misspelled from my phone. Yes actually I had an xp convertible tablet for 2 years

 

[BenSkywalker]

Yes actually I had an xp convertible tablet for 2 years

Convertibles were a lot better as you had another way to interface with it. The devices we are talking about don't come with keyboard/touchpad forcing you to try and use desktop apps via the touchscreen only. I spent enough time trying to do trivial tasks to know that using my phone to edit office docs was easier then using x86 native apps using a touchscreen exclusively, and it wasn't close.

 

[rockyct]

Have a lot of hands on time with desktop apps on a tablet? Ever owned a WinXP Tablet edition device? Ever seen how dumbest is spelled?

You do realize that every single app that runs on the Surface will run on the Surface Pro right? The app stores are the same. A few apps run on x86 but not on ARM but I believe all of the apps do run on x86. The app store has grown quite well in a month and I expect it to be very different in even two months. The user base is just too much too resist as it's basically the last un-mined app market. Win8/RT is already at 40 million copies sold and I bet it's going to be 75 million by the launch of the Surface Pro. It may not have done well as they hoped, but I have no idea why WinXP tablet apps are being discussed.

 

[BenSkywalker]

You do realize that every single app that runs on the Surface will run on the Surface Pro right? The app stores are the same

<looks at AppStore and Google Play, looks at Windows market>

Yeah.... I realize that.

Win8/RT is already at 40 million copies sold and I bet it's going to be 75 million by the launch of the Surface Pro.

Yes, we know, abject sales failure- falling further and further behind Android on a daily basis. We all have seen what a staggering failure Win8/RT has been. Windows RT on a unit basis is further behind Android today then it was the day before it came out. Seriously let that sink in. Microsoft Bob was better versus Mac OS compared to how RT is doing versus Android(yes, the software that was so bad it was never released).

We have people on this forum that even defend Windows Phone as a viable platform, despite RIM doubling its' marketshare, so we know that MS will always have its' defenders but it doesn't stop reality. MS has found a new level of failure that is honestly hard to understand without truly digging into the numbers.

It may not have done well as they hoped, but I have no idea why WinXP tablet apps are being discussed.

What advantage does Surface Pro have over Surface? The ability to run x86 apps. How do x86 apps run on a tablet? Shockingly poor.

For the record- I defended Vista against the nay sayers back in the day, my post record will back this up(Win7 is a service pack for Vista and nothing more). I'll defend good products when I see them, Surface, Surface Pro, Win8 and WinRT aren't in the league of being defensible IMO.

 

[lkailburn]

What is it about x86 apps on te surface pro that makes them an instant fail? Assuming you also added the keyboard which has a trackpad or also added on a laptop sized mouse. To me, the surface pro now becomes and extreme portable laptop that I get to use for work. When I'm home click off the keyboard and I read some news, play some games it's a regular tablet now. 2 devices in 1. And 4gb, plus the ivy i5 should be plenty fast for all of my purposes

 

[BenSkywalker]

What is it about x86 apps on te surface pro that makes them an instant fail?

Broken touch interface.

Assuming you also added the keyboard which has a trackpad or also added on a laptop sized mouse.

Now we are talking about a four figure tablet pushing into the 5-7lb(guesstimate) range? We've already had comparable devices available for quite some time. They have been abject failures in the marketplace. I'm not saying *you* won't like it, nor any other individual person. I was a big fan of Irix workstations, they never had a prayer in broader marketplace acceptance. The Surface Pro with add ons is pushing into quality laptop price range, the weight will be comparable and the battery life will be relatively terrible when viewed as a tablet. Unless you are looking for a very specific device, it just doesn't make sense to me. A $700 laptop and a Nexus 7 seem like they would be a lot better setup then SP+accessories.

 

[Pia]

Yes, we know, abject sales failure- falling further and further behind Android on a daily basis. We all have seen what a staggering failure Win8/RT has been. Windows RT on a unit basis is further behind Android today then it was the day before it came out. Seriously let that sink in.

You mean RT compared to Android tablets only?
I don't see how comparing the two on unit basis is meaningful at all when RT tablets started from zero while Android tablets were already selling. Even if RT was a brilliant success, it would be expected for the market incumbents to gain in units for a while. What really matters is the amount of touch-enabled Win8 and RT devices in use, which determines the basic viability of the ecosystem (the implicit assumption here is that Metro apps are useless for non-touch use for the time being).

Marketshare is important, but seeing how WinRT is included in Win8, poor marketshare isn't going to kill RT off no matter what - it's not the same situation as RIM is in.

I'm not saying RT will be a success, and I don't like it myself (because it's the same closed up bullshit as iOS). Just saying your logic is off.

What advantage does Surface Pro have over Surface? The ability to run x86 apps. How do x86 apps run on a tablet? Shockingly poor.

edit: ah, you were commenting on the usability rather than the hardware. It would be user error to try to do everything in classic apps while the Surface Pro is in tablet mode. You can use RT apps, or also use classic apps selectively. Anyone should be able to see how good this hardware will be for running something like OneNote. When you need to do more KB+M centric stuff, you go into ultrabook mode with the keyboard cover, or when you reach a desk you can also go desktop mode with external screen and peripherals.

 

[quest55720]

Broken touch interface.



Now we are talking about a four figure tablet pushing into the 5-7lb(guesstimate) range? We've already had comparable devices available for quite some time. They have been abject failures in the marketplace. I'm not saying *you* won't like it, nor any other individual person. I was a big fan of Irix workstations, they never had a prayer in broader marketplace acceptance. The Surface Pro with add ons is pushing into quality laptop price range, the weight will be comparable and the battery life will be relatively terrible when viewed as a tablet. Unless you are looking for a very specific device, it just doesn't make sense to me. A $700 laptop and a Nexus 7 seem like they would be a lot better setup then SP+accessories.

It is just over 2 pounds with the touch cover and just under 3 with the type cover. Hardly the 5-7 pounds. Which would I rather have at work carry around a bulk laptop and tablet or surface with one of the covers? And that ultrabook is 300-400 dollars more expensive. I like most here don't have much use for a app machine at work. Also thanks to display port you can make it your work station.

The surface pro is priced more than fair. Compare it to ultra book with a I5 and 1080P screen and come back and say it is unfairly priced.

 

[darkewaffle]

I think people think of x86 apps as though people will be playing big games or doing photoshop, which is possible but not the point imo. When I think of x86 I think of all the little programs I'm so used to using that may not have an ARM version or replacement that's readily available/as good (some do, some don't I'd guess). Stuff like WinRAR, Winamp, Opera (Firefox and all it's extensions as well), MPC and the numerous codecs I've used, instant messengers, full email clients; basically every little 'utility' that I like keeping around, and they're all there and still available.

I don't think it matters if they're easy to use with touch or not; mobile mice are small, cheap, and wireless and even if one isn't available I'd welcome the ability to slowly chicken peck my way through an unrar menu so that I can listen to the new mixtape I downloaded instead of not being able to do anything with it at all.

 

[Pia]

I think people think of x86 apps as though people will be playing big games or doing photoshop, which is possible but not the point imo.

Working in Photoshop could very much be the point, considering the Pro has a stylus. You could have a wireless keypad on the side to switch tools with, you could set up a bunch of virtual key buttons floating along one edge of the screen, or Adobe could even put in an entire "touch mode UI".

 

[lkailburn]

Broken touch interface.



Now we are talking about a four figure tablet pushing into the 5-7lb(guesstimate) range? We've already had comparable devices available for quite some time. They have been abject failures in the marketplace. I'm not saying *you* won't like it, nor any other individual person. I was a big fan of Irix workstations, they never had a prayer in broader marketplace acceptance. The Surface Pro with add ons is pushing into quality laptop price range, the weight will be comparable and the battery life will be relatively terrible when viewed as a tablet. Unless you are looking for a very specific device, it just doesn't make sense to me. A $700 laptop and a Nexus 7 seem like they would be a lot better setup then SP+accessories.

lets be realistic with these estimates shall we. 5-7lb range you're talking 15.6"-17" laptop territory lol.

I agree, a big competitor to the surface pro is an ultra book.( i wouldn't say a laptop is a big competitor since anyone looking at a surface pro is probably looking to shed bulk and weight with respect to a laptop so an ultrabook fits that bill) When priced similarly you get LESS hardware in an ultrabook than the pro but larger screen and more ports. Have to weigh in on what you really need.

 

[coolkingler1]

So I have a question.
I am new here and have been getting into tech the last year or so.


Anyways, I was looking at getting the Surface Pro when it releases, however, now that I see I mainly want to game on it I have my eyes set on a good gaming laptop too.

I have 1000 euro's at my disposal and honestly I think the main game I will be playing is League of Legends.

Thing is, can the Intel HD4000 graphics from the Ivy Bridge CPU run LoL on a tablet like that?

I think yes but some people disagree.


Besides that, is it even possible to install and play LoL on it?

Otherwise I will just get a good gaming laptop and that's that.

 

[darkewaffle]

I'd almost guarantee you could run LoL on HD4000 with no problem. No personal experience however.

 

[coolkingler1]

I'd almost guarantee you could run LoL on HD4000 with no problem. No personal experience however.

Oh okay... well I am going for a gaming laptop I think.

 

[Pia]

Thing is, can the Intel HD4000 graphics from the Ivy Bridge CPU run LoL on a tablet like that?

I think yes but some people disagree.


Besides that, is it even possible to install and play LoL on it?

With a quick google I found a youtube video of some German guy playing LoL on his desktop with HD4000, and at the start of the game he was getting solid 60FPS despite having all settings at high. So yes, the Surface would absolutely handle LoL.

 

[rockyct]

I think people think of x86 apps as though people will be playing big games or doing photoshop, which is possible but not the point imo. When I think of x86 I think of all the little programs I'm so used to using that may not have an ARM version or replacement that's readily available/as good (some do, some don't I'd guess). Stuff like WinRAR, Winamp, Opera (Firefox and all it's extensions as well), MPC and the numerous codecs I've used, instant messengers, full email clients; basically every little 'utility' that I like keeping around, and they're all there and still available.

I don't think it matters if they're easy to use with touch or not; mobile mice are small, cheap, and wireless and even if one isn't available I'd welcome the ability to slowly chicken peck my way through an unrar menu so that I can listen to the new mixtape I downloaded instead of not being able to do anything with it at all.

Right, the benefits of the Surface Pro is that you get the Win8 tablet experience but can still use those old programs you aren't will to let go yet because there isn't a Metro app for it yet. The old x86 apps act as a stopgap before all the ARM apps are available. While you could run Photoshop from the Surface Pro, not many are going to do that. Saying that the Surface Pro sucks because it's hard to use a program like Photoshop misses the point of it completely.

 

[quest55720]

Just for official confirmation the stylist is WACOM. I wonder if the pro will be huge with art students and the like. WACOM and very well priced, light and portable.

Wacom feel IT technology works exclusively with sensors embedded beneath the screen in many of today&#8217;s cutting-edge tablets, like the Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1, the Microsoft Surface Pro and the ASUS Slate, among others. Bamboo Stylus feel is precise and pressure-sensitive. It&#8217;s a stylus with a thin tip that feels and performs like a premium pen.

http://www.wacom.com/products/stylus/bamboo-stylus-feel

 

[finbarqs]

I don't think the "STYLUS" is made by Wacom, but Microsoft themselves. But I do wonder how many pressure points are there... there's the modbook pro, which I think has over 1000 pressure points or whatever.

 

[Puddle Jumper]

I don't think the "STYLUS" is made by Wacom, but Microsoft themselves. But I do wonder how many pressure points are there... there's the modbook pro, which I think has over 1000 pressure points or whatever.

The post right above yours has a statement from Wacom stating that they make the stylus for Surface Pro.

 

[lopri]

You do realize that every single app that runs on the Surface will run on the Surface Pro right?

I don't believe there is such a guarantee, which was one of my complaints and source of confusion from the beginning. Can you cite/link to back up the claim?

MS would surely want to have apps maintain compatibility between the two, but I don't see how it can force the developers to maintain the parity in times to come. Even if something works on both platforms at launch, it's more likely that updates or further developments may not, leaving consumers in limbo. Also, it's not difficult to imagine a developer pulling out of one platform if an app isn't selling. Then consumers have no place to turn to - I have read the Surface' EULA and MS explicitly disclaims any kind of responsibility (as it should, perhaps).

Windows Phone is yet another. I am guessing there will be a higher chance of compatibility between phones and tablets (ARM), but it still can be confusing and the best a consumer can do is make a case-by-case judgment.

 

[Digital Savior]

I don't believe there is such a guarantee, which was one of my complaints and source of confusion from the beginning. Can you cite/link to back up the claim?

I don't think it was ever guaranteed but if you think it about it, the developer would have to purposefully release an ARM compatible app and not the x86 variant. Why would they do that? All of the development tools are on the x86 platform and the default compile is for the x86 platform as well. The code between the platforms are the same. It takes extra work to develop for ARM as you would want to test it to make sure it runs well (performance wise). But once it works on arm, it would work on x86 as well, save for input.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I think in general this board has a tendency to back "big name" projects.

- Android? Oooh it's Google. Despite its suckage for years until ICS they vehemently defended it.
- Tegra? OMG. NVIDIA. OUR FAVORITE. Must be like the coolest thing. Oh wait it's the crappiest SoC on the market. Damn. Just because you get 120fps in Crysis Ultra doesn't mean your phone running NVidia will do the same.
- Intel in phones? Spark all the computer enthusiasts!! Woooohooo. Atom. How long have we been talking about that? Just because your computer is blazing fast and Intel, doesn't mean an Intel phone will win.
- Phones? Megahertz? Cores? All the idiots who used to run 3d Mark 24/7 for e-peen are benching CyanogenMod nightlies for Antutu scores and claiming that 12/1 is better than 11/30 because of a 20 point jump.
- Surface? Who cares how crappy the UI is. It's Microsoft. It's GOTTA be cool. It's the ANTI-APPLE.

Do people even step back for a second for a bigger picture? These things sound cool but it's all about execution in the end.

 

[lkailburn]

I don't think it was ever guaranteed but if you think it about it, the developer would have to purposefully release an ARM compatible app and not the x86 variant. Why would they do that? All of the development tools are on the x86 platform and the default compile is for the x86 platform as well. The code between the platforms are the same. It takes extra work to develop for ARM as you would want to test it to make sure it runs well (performance wise). But once it works on arm, it would work on x86 as well, save for input.

I thought I read only about 70% of the code would match between the two?