The more I study the bible, the more I dislike religion.

[Penth]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Food for thought...

If god loved us unconditionally he would not have judged Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit and banished us from the Garden of Eden.

And from the philosophical side of things, if god was all knowing and omnipotent, then he would not have placed the tree in the garden, knowing it would be humanity's failing. He would not have asked Adam and Eve "Who told you you were naked?" He would not have had to question them to find out they had indeed eaten of the fruit. Moreso, we could assume anyway god is omnipotent, and if so then he would have known before creating mankind what the outcome was going to be. Hence, god "set us up the bomb" in that respect.

Faith is a wonderful thing, but unfortunately it is an intangible simply to be used and twisted by humankind for its own purposes and gain.

I find it interesting that you find unconditional love and withholding judgment to go hand-in-hand or even similar. I love my whole family and if any of them were doing something wrong that would down the road lead to their unhappiness I would make a judgment on it, because of the love, not in spite of it. Making judgments on bad actions helps prevent more bad actions in the future. I don't know where this whole notion that making any type of a judgment is a bad thing to do. People have to make judgment calls all the time. People who decide not to make judgment calls are often times said to have bad judgment. People with bad judgment seem to have more trouble in life.

Originally posted by: SunnyD
You contradict yourself.

If god didn't know, then god isn't omnipotent and thus not all-powerful. If god knew what they were going to do, thus being omnipotent and all-powerful, then god wouldn't have asked. If it was to be displeasing to god to eat from the tree, then why did god put the tree in the garden if not only to displease god's self.

As a parent - I can say I am not omnipotent. I ask my kids if they did something because I generally don't know for certain. If I do know for certain, then I prefix the question with "Why".

The key is that god is supposed to be forgiving and merciful. If that's true, and god were to know the outcome, then why were we punished, or why did god put the tree there (if only to know we would fail), or why were we created at all? The answer is that either god is not omnipotent, or we were meant to eat from the tree, and/or were never meant to stay in the garden for eternity, or god is fallible. Given that religion teaches that god is all-powerful and omnipotent, then I submit that humanity was intended to eat from the tree, thus there is no such thing as sin.

A. Quite the thing for you to be telling us what someone who is omnipotent and all powerful what they would or wouldn't have done. Perhaps God wanted them to choose for themselves what they would do. Knowing something is going to happen and making it to happen aren't the same thing.

B. I think you might be on to something there.

C. Here too. Let's say God had a plan that required man to be tested. If God is perfect then it seems he would create a perfect world (Garden of Eden) but it's hard to be tested when you're in paradise. This world isn't perfect. So the eating of the fruit was a way to transition the perfect world that God created to the imperfect world we live in and where we could be tested. There was still sin from disobeying God and eating the fruit, even though God knew that it would happen and it was all according to his plan. That's not to say that we're responsible for that 'original sin.' I think we're only responsible for our own sins.

Anyway, I think you make some good points but you need to get rid of your "jump to conclusions" mat. You seem to take your very finite knowledge or even guesses about what God's plan is and assume what an omnipotent and perfect being would do in that situation. Something similar to your kids telling you how you should act and why. They don't have the understanding that you do just like we don't have the understanding God does.

 

[sandorski]

An imaginary being who is attributed to be the biggest Asshole ever, but Loves us. FTL

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: NSFW
I have been on my spiritual journey for almost a year now. I have read and reread the bible, read a lot of other books on Jesus and have studied the messages that were meant to be clear in the bible.

Religion as we know it is doing a damn good job of going against everything that Jesus taught. The institution that is the modern church is so far from what a real church is supposed to be. I can honestly see why a lot of people are put off by the church.

The one message that is most clear is that we are supposed to love each other and not judge each other. But so many religious people are quick to point out others' sins while completely ignoring their own. Jesus died on the cross to remove all of our sins. He didn't say that he was removing all sin except for being gay or except for adultery. He died to free us of ALL of our sins. All he asks in return is that we love him and love our fellow man. Those seem like pretty easy requests.

The point of this thread? I guess its to explain that while there are a lot of people pretending to be spreading God's word, they are actually doing the opposite. God's word is to love unconditionally. So those of you that used the hypocrisy of some Christians as a reason to be put off....you are right. But that's not the way things are supposed to be.

Congratulations, you have contradicted your own title. You have studied the bible wisely, and your statement above is a religious edict. Therefore, your disdain for religion is misplaced. The people you refer to are not religious in Jesus's view for that very fact.

 

[Denithor]

Just imagine how much more humans could accomplish without the financial & emotional drain that is "organized religion" (and I'm including all religions that take anything from their followers).

My parents are both devout Christians, contribute their 10% tithe every month - even though my father is on reduced hours at work and my mother has been out of work on disability for over two years.

/facepalm

EDIT: I personally like the Wiccan religion, although I do not practice myself. They will accept no payment of any kind for training and follow one simple creed: do no harm.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/wicrede.htm">Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
An' it harm none,
Do what ye will.
Blessed Be to thee.</a>

 

[Argo]

OP: I was actually thinking about the same topic recently and I do agree wholeheartedly. Things like Catholic church being one of the largest land owners in the world, the shine and richness of vatican, religious leaders telling people how to think - all of that appear to be in direct contrast to Jesus' teachings. I'm not even talking about things that were done in religion's name in the past (murder, conquests, torture).

 

[actuarial]

Originally posted by: Penth
I find it interesting that you find unconditional love and withholding judgment to go hand-in-hand or even similar. I love my whole family and if any of them were doing something wrong that would down the road lead to their unhappiness I would make a judgment on it, because of the love, not in spite of it. Making judgments on bad actions helps prevent more bad actions in the future. I don't know where this whole notion that making any type of a judgment is a bad thing to do. People have to make judgment calls all the time. People who decide not to make judgment calls are often times said to have bad judgment. People with bad judgment seem to have more trouble in life.

So you're saying if you had the power to create a perfect world for your family, you would create it, but then give them a test (knowing they would fail) and if they failed force them to live in a horrible, twisted, flawed world where they would suffer for their entire lives, but if they continually showed their love for you, and begged for your forgiveness, then you would let them back into the perfect world you were always able to offer them? Oh yeah, FIRST you would let multiple generations of the ancestors suffer before even giving some the ability to go back to paradise, nevermind that the vast majority will never be taught the secret knock. God really seems like he needs his ego stroked for Him to do anything nice for you! Does this prove that beating your kids for being a kid is next to Godliness?

Originally posted by: Penth
A. Quite the thing for you to be telling us what someone who is omnipotent and all powerful what they would or wouldn't have done. Perhaps God wanted them to choose for themselves what they would do. Knowing something is going to happen and making it to happen aren't the same thing.

A. You are right that knowing something will happen and making something happen aren't the same thing. If I KNOW you are an alcoholic, and I lock you in a room filled with booze, I'm not making you drink. I am an asshole though if I go in there and find you sloshed and then beat the shit out of you because you didn't reject the thing I knew you wouldn't reject.

 

[rudeguy]

Originally posted by: Argo
OP: I was actually thinking about the same topic recently and I do agree wholeheartedly. Things like Catholic church being one of the largest land owners in the world, the shine and richness of vatican, religious leaders telling people how to think - all of that appear to be in direct contrast to Jesus' teachings. I'm not even talking about things that were done in religion's name in the past (murder, conquests, torture).

I read a book recently called "So You Don't Want to go to Church Anymore". The premise was that a good Christian fellow randomly met up with a guy that he was pretty sure was the Apostle John. John ends up showing this good Christian how off his thinking is. It goes right along with what you are saying but goes much deeper. It really made me wonder what God or Jesus would think about modern organized religion.

I'm just glad that I am free from my old way of believing. The Truth is so much more freeing.

 

[yh125d]

Religion is good. Organized religion is a waste of time/energy


IMHO

 

[Babbles]

In terms of this thread, why does Bible = Religion? I am pretty sure there are other religions that don't give a rat's ass about the Bible.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: yh125d
Religion is good. Organized religion is a waste of time/energy


IMHO

Why (is religion good)?

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: yh125d
Religion is good. Organized religion is a waste of time/energy


IMHO

Why (is religion good)?

One could just as reasonably ask why is it bad.

My point is that it is a pretty juvenile and pointless thing to ask - especially on this forum.

 

[IronWing]

Adam should'a bought a PC instead. Eve fell for the marketing hype.

 

[Muse]

A coworker of mine and immigrant from Turkey and a nice guy explained to me one day sort of as an aside that the major problems in the world today are because of religion. I didn't reply, but filed it away in my "crop" to chew on.

 

[Aberforth]

God is not religious.

 

[SampSon]

Is the topic of this thread only in the context of christian belief?

 

[Muse]

Originally posted by: NSFW
I have been on my spiritual journey for almost a year now. I have read and reread the bible, read a lot of other books on Jesus and have studied the messages that were meant to be clear in the bible.

Religion as we know it is doing a damn good job of going against everything that Jesus taught. The institution that is the modern church is so far from what a real church is supposed to be. I can honestly see why a lot of people are put off by the church.

The one message that is most clear is that we are supposed to love each other and not judge each other. But so many religious people are quick to point out others' sins while completely ignoring their own. Jesus died on the cross to remove all of our sins. He didn't say that he was removing all sin except for being gay or except for adultery. He died to free us of ALL of our sins. All he asks in return is that we love him and love our fellow man. Those seem like pretty easy requests.

The point of this thread? I guess its to explain that while there are a lot of people pretending to be spreading God's word, they are actually doing the opposite. God's word is to love unconditionally. So those of you that used the hypocrisy of some Christians as a reason to be put off....you are right. But that's not the way things are supposed to be.

I highly recommend to you one book: The Book by Alan Watts. Watts was a student of theology with a real head on his shoulders and like you he was on a quest. Well, lets just say he really found out. Do yourself a big favor and read The Book.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
You dont need to read the bible to dislike religion.

True enough. But it does raise the question of how anyone can read the bible and like religion. That seems completely impossible unless you don't understand a word of it.

 

[Leafy]

Originally posted by: NSFW
I have been on my spiritual journey for almost a year now. I have read and reread the bible, read a lot of other books on Jesus and have studied the messages that were meant to be clear in the bible.

Religion as we know it is doing a damn good job of going against everything that Jesus taught. The institution that is the modern church is so far from what a real church is supposed to be. I can honestly see why a lot of people are put off by the church.

The one message that is most clear is that we are supposed to love each other and not judge each other. But so many religious people are quick to point out others' sins while completely ignoring their own. Jesus died on the cross to remove all of our sins. He didn't say that he was removing all sin except for being gay or except for adultery. He died to free us of ALL of our sins. All he asks in return is that we love him and love our fellow man. Those seem like pretty easy requests.

The point of this thread? I guess its to explain that while there are a lot of people pretending to be spreading God's word, they are actually doing the opposite. God's word is to love unconditionally. So those of you that used the hypocrisy of some Christians as a reason to be put off....you are right. But that's not the way things are supposed to be.

You should love the people who spread ridiculous nonsense then.

Your argument is deceptively close to VFX's where he says, literally in one video, that God's message is to love, and yet that atheists have no love in them.

Instead of converging, as a search for the truth should, religion keeps diverging. Why is that?

There is literally no way to go from "God exists" to "God wants you to love people." No way at all. Non sequitur.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: Muse

Originally posted by: NSFW
I have been on my spiritual journey for almost a year now. I have read and reread the bible, read a lot of other books on Jesus and have studied the messages that were meant to be clear in the bible.

Religion as we know it is doing a damn good job of going against everything that Jesus taught. The institution that is the modern church is so far from what a real church is supposed to be. I can honestly see why a lot of people are put off by the church.

The one message that is most clear is that we are supposed to love each other and not judge each other. But so many religious people are quick to point out others' sins while completely ignoring their own. Jesus died on the cross to remove all of our sins. He didn't say that he was removing all sin except for being gay or except for adultery. He died to free us of ALL of our sins. All he asks in return is that we love him and love our fellow man. Those seem like pretty easy requests.

The point of this thread? I guess its to explain that while there are a lot of people pretending to be spreading God's word, they are actually doing the opposite. God's word is to love unconditionally. So those of you that used the hypocrisy of some Christians as a reason to be put off....you are right. But that's not the way things are supposed to be.

I highly recommend to you one book: The Book by Alan Watts. Watts was a student of theology with a real head on his shoulders and like you he was on a quest. Well, lets just say he really found out. Do yourself a big favor and read The Book.

Alan Watts is very famous and was somebody that helped introduce Buddhism to America, while also dummying it down and mis-interpreting it. He also experimented with all sorts of crazy hallucinogenic drugs - not really conduce to having "a real head on his shoulders."

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: yh125d
Religion is good. Organized religion is a waste of time/energy


IMHO

Why (is religion good)?

One could just as reasonably ask why is it bad.

My point is that it is a pretty juvenile and pointless thing to ask - especially on this forum.

In general religion is bad because it acclimates people to beliefs that have nothing to do with reality. It allows them to place great importance on things that have no material existence and to act on those beliefs as though they have logical basis. The specific doctrines of the religion don't matter, the thing that matters is that religion itself impedes human thought by placing irreconcilable contradictions and insurmountable barriers in its path. Many of the greatest thinkers in human history were hamstrung by the religious notions they had to tiptoe around lest they venture into some heretical modes of thought. That's not to mention how religion greases the wheels of enmity between cultures who hold different fairy tales to be true. The great importance that people place on their particular unseen, unheard, but ever-present grandfather in the sky allows them to act in a way that is wholly inconsistent with what the situations would normally dictate when freed from the irrelevancies of religious thought. It is this act of doing real things in a real world to meet the imaginary needs of an imaginary being/belief system that generates the most problems.

One of my favorite quotes on the subject:

"Religion allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.? ~Sam Harris

My opinion is, of course, colored by my thoughts about the truth of any religion, and I have no proof to support that opinion as has been so thoroughly discussed before. My evidence is simply looking at religion and then looking at people. Religion so obviously panders to the base motivations and fears that human beings have that it hurts me to see people convincing themselves that it's real. If anyone would step back and look at it objectively it seems that they would all see that it is by people for people and almost certainly not from any divine source. How neatly it lays all their fears to rest one by one, burying them under enough convoluted layers of backwards logic that finally they are able to lose sight of what it was they feared and why they do this religion thing to start with. People attend sermons with no clear direction in which pastors string together sentences of religious catch-phrases and buzz-words of the type we so often see from our esteemed friend Crono that contain no real meaning, but leave everyone feeling soundly talked at after an hour. Try and ask one of them what the sermon was actually about and you'll get a confused look, an on-the-spot recitation of scripture, or some sort of canned bit that could serve as a response to any question but can answer none.

 

[Vic]

Spirituality, faith, and religion are 3 entirely separate things. The sooner you understand this, the better it will be for you.

 

[timosyy]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-Gandhi

Pretty much how I feel about the subject. I like the Christian message, I just can't stand the church.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I did not contradict myself. What I meant is that God did not ask the question because he did not know the answer. Sometimes Parents ask their kids if they did something, even if they already know they did. He asked them to teach them a lesson, not because he didn't know.

I already stated the answer to your second question. I cannot make you have faith in something you choose not to, so I am not going to try. But to answer your question.

God created us in his likeness for his glory, but what kind of glory would he get out of a creation that had to/were forced to worship him? He gave them everything in the garden except the tree, and the tree was put there so they had a choice to obey God or not obey God. They chose not to. The tree itself wasn't displeasing. The tree is described as being very pleasant to the eyes. It was just a test for his creation, nothing more.

But god is all-powerful and omnipotent... why would he have to test us? God would know the outcome before god created us. Thus, it really wouldn't be a test, and humanity could not be faulted for what happened.

It's a really silly academic debate any philosophy class will start with. We can go on and on all day, but what it comes down to is basically humanity believing in something that either is or can never be.

Now if god did create us using omnipotent powers, then god's only salvation would be if god were to have been trying to defy god's reality, in the hopes that humanity would outdo god. But that brings us back around to the fact that if god is omnipotent, all-knowing and all-powerful, god would be proving there is no all-powerful being. It's circular.

Again, we were created for His glory. So us worshiping Him even when we aren't forced to is pleasing.

 

[Vic]

His glory is our glory for we are Him and He is us.

 

[Penth]

Originally posted by: actuarial

Originally posted by: Penth
I find it interesting that you find unconditional love and withholding judgment to go hand-in-hand or even similar. I love my whole family and if any of them were doing something wrong that would down the road lead to their unhappiness I would make a judgment on it, because of the love, not in spite of it. Making judgments on bad actions helps prevent more bad actions in the future. I don't know where this whole notion that making any type of a judgment is a bad thing to do. People have to make judgment calls all the time. People who decide not to make judgment calls are often times said to have bad judgment. People with bad judgment seem to have more trouble in life.

So you're saying if you had the power to create a perfect world for your family, you would create it, but then give them a test (knowing they would fail) and if they failed force them to live in a horrible, twisted, flawed world where they would suffer for their entire lives, but if they continually showed their love for you, and begged for your forgiveness, then you would let them back into the perfect world you were always able to offer them? Oh yeah, FIRST you would let multiple generations of the ancestors suffer before even giving some the ability to go back to paradise, nevermind that the vast majority will never be taught the secret knock. God really seems like he needs his ego stroked for Him to do anything nice for you! Does this prove that beating your kids for being a kid is next to Godliness?

Originally posted by: Penth
A. Quite the thing for you to be telling us what someone who is omnipotent and all powerful what they would or wouldn't have done. Perhaps God wanted them to choose for themselves what they would do. Knowing something is going to happen and making it to happen aren't the same thing.

A. You are right that knowing something will happen and making something happen aren't the same thing. If I KNOW you are an alcoholic, and I lock you in a room filled with booze, I'm not making you drink. I am an asshole though if I go in there and find you sloshed and then beat the shit out of you because you didn't reject the thing I knew you wouldn't reject.

They weren't put in a garden of trees of good and evil. It's more like your alcoholic friend is going to the grocery store and you say, "It would definitely be in your best interest to not buy beer while you are there." Even if you know he's going to, he still gets to choose for himself. Sure you could tie him up in a room and make sure he doesn't buy beer, but neither of you would like that. Or you could get rid of all the beer in town and then no one would have the option. Those options are the alternative you are left with.

As to your first question, I believe in a much more elaborate and rewarding plan that God has for each of his children than most Christians. Part if it is Him allowing us to make decisions and learn from them and become better people from the experiences. It requires more from us but in living it it makes me happy. And if it wasn't for all the other stuff and it still made me happy I think that would be good enough reason to live it.

Edit: But based on your comments I think your view of God is more like he's angry and has an ego that we humans are supposed to stroke where I think He's a perfect and loving father who wants us as his children to have the same thing he does. I don't get in either of your examples how beating your friend or your children in any way resembles God and his dealings with us.