The New Religion

[SilverThief]

Wow, just when things couldnt get any worse.

 

[Moonbeam]

He who has made a door and lock has also made a key.

 

[Mucho]

The problem with psychotherapy is having an insight into why you have some destructive behavior doesn?t mean you are going to cease those behavior.

 

[Moonbeam]

I remember long ago at trip I made to Nor. There people had never heard of an orgasm and a new phenomenon of sexual therapy had just begun. The therapists had some notion that sex involved the sacred parts that were never to be touched and so they focused there therapy around talking about them. Huge numbers of schools evolved around the best form of talk. I mentioned to them that in order to know what a real orgasm was they would have to feel one and work in a certain way to accomplish that. Needless to say that cut short my stay in Nor. One must never touch the sacred, you see.

In Nor psychology amounted to the study and measurement in great detail of the phenomenon we call frigidity, the sick measuring the sick. Poor Norians knew nothing of human potential nor could the recognize anyone who did. But Nor has now been visited by Lovers who know the ropes and they work with individual Norians secretly to bring them the truth.

Unlike scientific fact experience cannot be measured and proven, but unlike opinion, people with experience know those who know and those who do not. People without experience have no idea what it is.

People with potential know what potential is. People who lack potential have no idea what they are capable of. The acquisition of potential arises out of need. So if you want to learn increase your need.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Mucho
The problem with psychotherapy is having an insight into why you have some destructive behavior doesn?t mean you are going to cease those behavior.

Or it might not even be a real insight. The mind is a complicated thing, and as hypnosis has taught us, suggestion and manipulation can be very powerful.

 

[Looney]

The psychologists are the new priests, helping the confused masses reach inner peace and find "truth."

I agree with this. The reason why i fell in love with psychology was not only because it helped me understand the world, why people act the way they do, but it also helped me understand myself.

I think religion does this as well. There are lots of questions people have about life, their purpose here, etc, and religion offers them an answer to it.

They have indeed adopted a scientific posture. However, from a strictly scientific point of view, they have not been able to meet the requirements of true science. Yes, some psychological statements which describe human behavior or which report results from research can be scientific. However, when we move from describing human behavior to explaining it, and particularly changing it, we move from science to wild opinion.

I guess whoever wrote this, isn't very well educated in what science does. It not only records observations and make measurements, but THEORIZES and HYPOTHESIZES on why it happens. Now, those hypothesises are to be tested by more research and studies. "We hypothesize that the sky is blue because of the way light bends when it hits our atmosphere... so we're going to test that by using tools that will allow us to measure the light spectrums." It's no different than, "We hypothesize that anger issues stem from people's past experiences of using anger to get their way... ie they've been successful in the past in using anger to get their way, so that reinforced the behavior. So we're going to test that by teaching them other skills to cope with stressful situations, and see if they turn to anger as much."

The biggest deviant from science in psychology is psychotherapy. If psychotherapy was remotely scientific, there would be some consensus in the field regarding mental-emotional-behavioral problems and how to treat them. Unfortunatly, the subject is filled with blatantly contradictory theories and techniques, all of which communicate and demostrate confusion rather than representing anything close to scientific order.

I can somewhat agree with this... psychotherapy is a TREATMENT that stems from a scientific basis. Most people that see the psychotherapy, never bother educating themselves on how that psychotherapy came to be, so they don't see all the research. That's not to say there's a lot of quackery out there... there are some... lots in fact.

Will you say human physiology is based in science? Of course it is, but you also have fad diets and informercials selling abs machine that don't work... should we say physiology is not a real science because it's easily exploited?

Anyone would have to admit, with over 300 separate systems of psychotherapy, each claiming to be better than the others, it is difficult to believe such diverse opinions as scientific or even factual.

Psychology and psychotherapy is a very young science when you compare it to the other sciences... and it's had a very slow start until about 40 years ago. It'll evolve... with more research, more understanding, the pieces will start to fall together. Human behavior and mental processes is not an easy thing to understand.

 

[Looney]

Let me ask those of you who think psychology is quackery... would you rather that this field didn't exist? That we shouldn't bother understanding human behavior?

 

[surreal1221]

I like rice.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Looney
Let me ask those of you who think psychology is quackery... would you rather that this field didn't exist? That we shouldn't bother understanding human behavior?

I think the concept of psychology is an essential part to understand man and the universe.

I also believe it's struggling as a soft science. As we learn more about the BRAIN (there's a difference between "brain" and "mind"), the certain medical aspects of psychology will hopefully improve. Psychotherapy though is a drag on the whole thing though, mixing too much mysticism and social agenda.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Looney
Let me ask those of you who think psychology is quackery... would you rather that this field didn't exist? That we shouldn't bother understanding human behavior?

I think the concept of psychology is an essential part to understand man and the universe.

I also believe it's struggling as a soft science. As we learn more about the BRAIN (there's a difference between "brain" and "mind"), the certain medical aspects of psychology will hopefully improve. Psychotherapy though is a drag on the whole thing though, mixing too much mysticism and social agenda.

What psychotherapies are you talking about? And what are these mysticism and social agendas that are attached to them?

So you believe people with anger management problems should just be left alone? People who are afraid of speaking in public, shouldn't go for treatment? People with childhood sexual abuse, should just jump off bridges? People with traumatic experiences should just self-medicate themselves through alcohol?

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Looney

So you believe people with anger management problems should just be left alone? People who are afraid of speaking in public, shouldn't go for treatment? People with childhood sexual abuse, should just jump off bridges? People with traumatic experiences should just self-medicate themselves through alcohol?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying... :roll:

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Looney

So you believe people with anger management problems should just be left alone? People who are afraid of speaking in public, shouldn't go for treatment? People with childhood sexual abuse, should just jump off bridges? People with traumatic experiences should just self-medicate themselves through alcohol?

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying... :roll:

So what's your answer then?

 

[thomsbrain]

If you did any research (as in reading academic journals) instead of just parroting like another Tom Cruise, you'd known that the behavioral and cognitive areas of psychology are as "hard" science as you can get. They are 100% empircal, tested with experiments measured quantitative data, with especially huge leaps in knowledge and understanding being made in the areas of infant perception and mental capabilities.
And while psychotherapy may be currently limited to arena of theorizing, it has been proved to be EFFECTIVE at helping people feel better and navigate the world and their relationships. Unlike religion, which is generally just a band-aid for people's problems, psychotherapy can actually relieve the problem itself.

And to say that psychology is BECOMING more mystical is to prove that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Psychology started with Freud, who was about as psuedo-science as you can possibly get, and has been backpedaling to science ever since. to use Freud or his disciple Jung as "proof" that all psychology is about mysticism is ridiculous. even FREUD thought Jung was too mystical.

Kudos to liblion for pointing out what should be obvious but apparently is not: psychology, psychotherapy, and psychiatry are not the same things.

It's definity what I'd call a "soft science" which I have zero intrest in. I remember having to take a remedial psych class as part of general education requirements in college and thought to myself at the time the symtoms of every single ailment could be applied to anyone on any given day... reminded me of astrology/horiscopes in many ways.

psychology deals with intense, problematic, PROLONGED problems. feeling a little off on one day is not the kind of problem that psychology deals with. sometimes i wake up with a headache. does that mean scientists who study brain tumors are practicing "soft science?"

The problem with psychotherapy is having an insight into why you have some destructive behavior doesn?t mean you are going to cease those behavior.

actually, in many cases (minus certain personality disorders, etc), it does. but you'd know that already if you knew what you were talking about.

I also believe it's struggling as a soft science. As we learn more about the BRAIN (there's a difference between "brain" and "mind"), the certain medical aspects of psychology will hopefully improve. Psychotherapy though is a drag on the whole thing though, mixing too much mysticism and social agenda.

with such HUGE chunks of our personality (especially personality problems) coming from EXPERIENCE, understanding the brain will not help us understand behavior any farther than understanding how a computer is put together helps us understand how windows boots up. it is very helpful, but only up to a point. at some point, we need to understand the software, too. you can't stick a probe into your CPU and figure out how Windows implements TCP/IP, and you can't stick a probe into your brain and figure out how your mom being mean to you effected you later on.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
If you did any research (as in reading academic journals) instead of just parroting like another Tom Cruise ...

Stopped reading about right there... it's about as good as Looney's retard questions (suggestions).

 

[bobbybe01]

omghi2utomcruise!!!!!11!!!1!111

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Isla

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Infohawk
There isn't much to respond to because of the lack of specifics. If someone has real issues with an entire field like psychology, they should address specific methodologies, maybe even give examples. Instead we get vague rhetoric.

QFT

I majored in Psych and minored in Soc. I took entire classes on scientific methods, both quantative and qualitative (that was for Soc.). I had to take courses on physiology... Perception is all about the nervous system. I had to take courses on Tests and Measurements, Motivation, Development (and there are distinct stages), and so on. I took one course on Counseling and found it helpful personally... in it, we were taught how to listen, how to facilitate, and how to mediate. All very useful things.

I don't know about 'psychotherapists' but I do know about Mental Health Counselors. Mental Health Counselors are trained to help people gain insight into their problems and to help them develop better coping skills. They can also help the socially impaired improve relationship skills. Again, very useful, practical things. There is no 'mysticism' to it. In fact, it's just the OPPOSITE, which is why my fundamentalist inlaws were so opposed to my secular schooling! It's very cause and effect, behavior modification kind of stuff. It's just that most people are not very aware of their own thought processes and mental habits.

Anyway, I chose not to go into the field of counseling because it is too draining. A lot of people come looking for a crystal ball or a magic wand and that's not happening. It's just like losing weight... YOU have to be disciplined and do the work, there is no easy way out. With mental health, it's the same thing. A good counselor will help you hear your own bullshot.

I'm sure you know a lot about mental health counselors. The focus of the OP is psychotherapy, but what you said was interesting.

The problem is, the OP is vague and generalizes about psychology. The OP infers something far more sinister (Psychology is evil! A false religion!) and doesn't take into account that a lot of hard science goes into the research. OF COURSE there is quackery within the field... there is quackery EVERYWHERE, where ever there is a sucker waiting to be taken advantage of. And it just so happens that charismatic people are really good at taking advantage of others, whether they are Pastors (with a capital p, lol) or 'psychotherapists'. Or politicians and their advisors, for that matter...

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
If you did any research (as in reading academic journals) instead of just parroting like another Tom Cruise ...

Stopped reading about right there... it's about as good as Looney's retard questions (suggestions).

Why? Because i asked to you explain your criticisms?

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: Zebo
It's definity what I'd call a "soft science" which I have zero intrest in. I remember having to take a remedial psych class as part of general education requirements in college and thought to myself at the time the symtoms of every single ailment could be applied to anyone on any given day... reminded me of astrology/horiscopes in many ways.

I guess you didn't do very well in that class. Of course most people have most 'symptoms' of disorders... most people have anxiety when speaking infront of a crowd, most people have felt sad or depressed when something bad happens, most people have an interest that others may view obsessive if they don't understand it, etc etc. It's not what they have that is the problem, is the degree of the problem and how it affects people lives, that makes it a disorder.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Isla
The problem is, the OP is vague and generalizes about psychology. The OP infers something far more sinister (Psychology is evil! A false religion!) and doesn't take into account that a lot of hard science goes into the research. OF COURSE there is quackery within the field... there is quackery EVERYWHERE, where ever there is a sucker waiting to be taken advantage of. And it just so happens that charismatic people are really good at taking advantage of others, whether they are Pastors (with a capital p, lol) or 'psychotherapists'. Or politicians and their advisors, for that matter...

I disagree. I have stated psychology is a valuable concept and important to understand. What I am observing though, is that there's misconceptions about the field (it's not a hard science), and an important branch of psychology -psychotherapy- has a lot of peculiar aspects to it... including a overtly mystical strain that casts a skeptical shadow.

And whoever mentioned we're confusing terms was the first one to use the word psychiatry. Who's confused?

Psychotherapy does not deal with the physical brain. It deals with aspects of thinking, feeling, and behaving. The "counselor" is not in the business of healing diseases, but of teaching new ways of thinking, feeling, and behaving. He is a teacher, not a doctor. That's point #1. Point #2 is that there's a great many different kinds of teachers and a lot of what they teach is very much like religion.

 

[Moonbeam]

Mysticism is science we don't understand. The critique of mysticism is the critique of experience(s) you have never had.

Owing to the natural antipathy this truth engenders in the egos of those who want on demand and can't be filled in that way, the science of teaching experience is always hidden even if in plane view.

 

[Promethply]

It's quite odd -- when I was still in college, most rightwing students in that college considered most of the soft sciences (other than political science and economics) along with arts to be a waste of their time

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Promethply
It's quite odd -- when I was still in college, most rightwing students in that college considered most of the soft sciences (other than political science and economics) along with arts to be a waste of their time

Strange... I didn't find that to be the case at all

Guess perception plays a big role.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Mysticism is science we don't understand. The critique of mysticism is the critique of experience(s) you have never had.

Owing to the natural antipathy this truth engenders in the egos of those who want on demand and can't be filled in that way, the science of teaching experience is always hidden even if in plane view.

Case closed

 

[Gravity]

I think it's more of a "psuedo-science."

After 1.5 years of marriage counseling, I'm convinced that it needs work...much more work to be effective.

Gravity

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Mysticism is science we don't understand. The critique of mysticism is the critique of experience(s) you have never had.

Owing to the natural antipathy this truth engenders in the egos of those who want on demand and can't be filled in that way, the science of teaching experience is always hidden even if in plane view.

Case closed

Yes, you close it on yourself and can't even imagine why it is I get to you.