The New Religion

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Psychotherapy is all about searching deep within yourself to discover the real you. It is said to be "the sacred work of attending the soul, carefully nurturing the most essential aspects of who and what one is."

The psychologists are the new priests, helping the confused masses reach inner peace and find "truth."

Remember, psychology is a social science, like religious studies or sociology. Many people believe that psychotherapy (psychological counseling along with its theories and techniques) is a science -- a means of understanding and helping humans based on empirical evidence taken from consistant and measurable data, like biology or chemistry.

They have indeed adopted a scientific posture. However, from a strictly scientific point of view, they have not been able to meet the requirements of true science. Yes, some psychological statements which describe human behavior or which report results from research can be scientific. However, when we move from describing human behavior to explaining it, and particularly changing it, we move from science to wild opinion.

The biggest deviant from science in psychology is psychotherapy. If psychotherapy was remotely scientific, there would be some consensus in the field regarding mental-emotional-behavioral problems and how to treat them. Unfortunatly, the subject is filled with blatantly contradictory theories and techniques, all of which communicate and demostrate confusion rather than representing anything close to scientific order.

Psychotherapy proliferates with many conflicting explanations of man and his behavior. In a 1980 article "Psychology Goes Insane, Botches Role as Science," psychologist Roger Mills states:

"The field of psychology today is literally a mess. There are as many techniques, methods and theories around as there are researchers and therapists. I have personally seen therapists convince their clients that all of their problems come from their mothers, the stars, their bio-chemical make-up, their diet, their life-style and even the "kharma" from their past lives."

Anyone would have to admit, with over 300 separate systems of psychotherapy, each claiming to be better than the others, it is difficult to believe such diverse opinions as scientific or even factual.

This is a good quote (author withheld): "As a science, psychology is barely making its first steps. It is still in the anteroom of science, in the stage of observing and gathering material from which a future science will come." From the looks of it though, the field seems to be degenerating into mysticism instead following a path of reason.

Especially arrogant and destructive are those mental witch doctors whose dogma claims that each person will discover the same truths as they already discovered by following their psychological prescriptions. Such holier-than-thou preaching is worst than the intrusive door-to-door moralizing by traditional religious groups.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Are you a scientologist by any chance?

Of course not, I'm not even religious.

But I can see how a connection to scientology can be made, since I guess they hate psychology.

I don't have a problem with the IDEA of psychology, I just think it's in utter disarray and geting as mystical as religion.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
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just another boundless faith, like god, and physics. at least with physics you get to see and feel some of the results.
 

LibLion

Junior Member
Jun 30, 2005
12
0
0
Well, one of the major problems with this article, and perhaps this thread, is that people seem to be using the terms "psychology", "psychotherapy", and "psychiatry" interchangeably, and while they are connected, they are not the same thing.



 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Are you a scientologist by any chance?

Of course not, I'm not even religious.

But I can see how a connection to scientology can be made, since I guess they hate psychology.

I don't have a problem with the IDEA of psychology, I just think it's in utter disarray and geting as mystical as religion.

Okay, just checking. And for the record, I would tend to agree with you. From personal experience, I think the biggest benefit of psychotherapy is that you get to talk out your problems with someone who's impartial. The benefit is in the <talking> and the <not being judged> part ... it seems anyone on the other end of your blathering, whether trained or not, would work so long as they were a good listener.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
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OMFGWTFWATERMELLON!!! cwjerome is revealed as Tom Cruise! :shocked:

Hey, Tom? Need a couch to jump on? :laugh:
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: Harvey
OMFGWTFWATERMELLON!!! cwjerome is revealed as Tom Cruise! :shocked:

Hey, Tom? Need a couch to jump on? :laugh:


LoL... I'll take his money (already got the looks)

Just saw War of the Worlds, good flick
 

azazyel

Diamond Member
Oct 6, 2000
5,872
1
76
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Harvey
OMFGWTFWATERMELLON!!! cwjerome is revealed as Tom Cruise! :shocked:

Hey, Tom? Need a couch to jump on? :laugh:


LoL... I'll take his money (already got the looks)

Just saw War of the Worlds, good flick

Time to get a new mirror..:>
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Originally posted by: judasmachine
just another boundless faith, like god, and physics. at least with physics you get to see and feel some of the results.

How is physics a "boundless faith"?

 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Are you a scientologist by any chance?

Of course not, I'm not even religious.

Interesting though how this mirrors right-wing dogma and how cwjerome got the ideas from a pastor. I was listening to some RRR radiostation and they explained how their next episode would attack self-help and psychotherapy. Like scientologists, they feel threatened.

Anyway, as with many of cwjerome's posts, there isn't much to respond to because of the lack of specifics. If someone has real issues with an entire field like psychology, they should address specific methodologies, maybe even give examples. Instead we get vague rhetoric.

The comparison to religion is silly. There is a lot of nutty self-help out there but most of it doesn't pretend to be the ultimate truth like religion does.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I was watching a movie the other day. An inmate of a nuthouse asks the doctor if he has ever cured one of the patients and he says no. The patient then asks him if he thinks he is a failure.

If you are a psychologist,what incentive is there to cure a patient? If you cure someone they stop paying you!

There are so many supposed mental conditions or illnesses you can have, that no one can be considered completely sane if you listen to a psychologist. That is why so many children are on rittilin (Spell). These people often just give their patients drugs that dont really need any drugs. What they really need is a a good friend to cheer them up. Often drugs do help, but I have known plenty of people who seemed perfectly alright who I personally know just went to the psychologist just so they could get drugs.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Are you a scientologist by any chance?

Of course not, I'm not even religious.

Interesting though how this mirrors right-wing dogma and how cwjerome got the ideas from a pastor. I was listening to some RRR radiostation and they explained how their next episode would attack self-help and psychotherapy. Like scientologists, they feel threatened.

Anyway, as with many of cwjerome's posts, there isn't much to respond to because of the lack of specifics. If someone has real issues with an entire field like psychology, they should address specific methodologies, maybe even give examples. Instead we get vague rhetoric.

The comparison to religion is silly. There is a lot of nutty self-help out there but most of it doesn't pretend to be the ultimate truth like religion does.


I get my ideas from a lot of sources, don't you? (as if there's something wrong with something a pastor says because he's a pastor) I suppose you're assuming that I'm an RRR, religious, and am threatened by psychology. Obviously assumptions don't always reflect reality in the least :roll:

The comparison to religion is in fact silly. But don't blame me for that, blame the psychotherapists who see it that way. The originis of psychotherapy are not science... they are derived from various philosophical outlooks especially those of secular humanism, determinism, existentialism, and behaviorism.

The strategies used by psychotherapists are mostly on the same level as the techniques used by shaman or clerics. Philosophers, theologists, cultists, and others have always tried to explain why people behave the way they do and how they change. This history of social thinking has formed the foundation of psychotherapy.

Carl Jung (maybe the biggest name in the field) wrote:

"Religions are systems of healing for psychic illness. ... That is why patients force the psychotherapist into the role of a priest, and expect and demand of him that he shall free them from their distress. That is why we psychotherapists must occupy ourselves with problems which, strictly speaking, belong to the theologian."

Do some research and you understand -if you're capable- the ideas surrounding psychotherapy. The mysticism usually revolves around a Buddhist-like focus on discovery of self, but there can be no dispute the religious nature of psychotherapy. It's not grounded in science any more than any other religion.

Here's an average website, see for yourself: here


 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Psychotherapy is the most blatantly religious than other aspects of psychology. Transpersonal psychotherapies involve faith in the supernatural -- something beyond the physical universe, although they are more into Eastern religion and New Age occult. It really stems from the Gnostics, the first big protest group of Christians. They rejected the notion of somebody else beginning sin, someone else saving them, everything being external... they believed salvation is WITHIN YOU, so they adopted an Eastern-like approach to introspective meditation, etc.

I wonder if the resident P&N psychotherapy expert has any comments?
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
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81
Originally posted by: Gen Stonewall
Originally posted by: judasmachine
just another boundless faith, like god, and physics. at least with physics you get to see and feel some of the results.

How is physics a "boundless faith"?

The belief that it will save us in the end. Not the science being bogus, perhaps I should have worded that better. It can definatly help, but it's not the almighty.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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It's definity what I'd call a "soft science" which I have zero intrest in. I remember having to take a remedial psych class as part of general education requirements in college and thought to myself at the time the symtoms of every single ailment could be applied to anyone on any given day... reminded me of astrology/horiscopes in many ways.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Yeah, psychology is a soft science, like economics and political science. But the closer you get to psychology's "psychotherapy" arm, the softer -and stranger- it gets.

I actually loved my psychology class in college... very interesting to a humanities person like myself, and more related to philosophy than a lotta people think.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
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I would largely agree with the OP, except that I don't see a problem, unless those involved are trying to pass it off as hard science.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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Originally posted by: Infohawk
There isn't much to respond to because of the lack of specifics. If someone has real issues with an entire field like psychology, they should address specific methodologies, maybe even give examples. Instead we get vague rhetoric.

 

Isla

Elite member
Sep 12, 2000
7,749
2
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Infohawk
There isn't much to respond to because of the lack of specifics. If someone has real issues with an entire field like psychology, they should address specific methodologies, maybe even give examples. Instead we get vague rhetoric.

QFT

I majored in Psych and minored in Soc. I took entire classes on scientific methods, both quantative and qualitative (that was for Soc.). I had to take courses on physiology... Perception is all about the nervous system. I had to take courses on Tests and Measurements, Motivation, Development (and there are distinct stages), and so on. I took one course on Counseling and found it helpful personally... in it, we were taught how to listen, how to facilitate, and how to mediate. All very useful things.

I don't know about 'psychotherapists' but I do know about Mental Health Counselors. Mental Health Counselors are trained to help people gain insight into their problems and to help them develop better coping skills. They can also help the socially impaired improve relationship skills. Again, very useful, practical things. There is no 'mysticism' to it. In fact, it's just the OPPOSITE, which is why my fundamentalist inlaws were so opposed to my secular schooling! It's very cause and effect, behavior modification kind of stuff. It's just that most people are not very aware of their own thought processes and mental habits.

Anyway, I chose not to go into the field of counseling because it is too draining. A lot of people come looking for a crystal ball or a magic wand and that's not happening. It's just like losing weight... YOU have to be disciplined and do the work, there is no easy way out. With mental health, it's the same thing. A good counselor will help you hear your own bullshot.

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
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Originally posted by: Isla
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: Infohawk
There isn't much to respond to because of the lack of specifics. If someone has real issues with an entire field like psychology, they should address specific methodologies, maybe even give examples. Instead we get vague rhetoric.

QFT

I majored in Psych and minored in Soc. I took entire classes on scientific methods, both quantative and qualitative (that was for Soc.). I had to take courses on physiology... Perception is all about the nervous system. I had to take courses on Tests and Measurements, Motivation, Development (and there are distinct stages), and so on. I took one course on Counseling and found it helpful personally... in it, we were taught how to listen, how to facilitate, and how to mediate. All very useful things.

I don't know about 'psychotherapists' but I do know about Mental Health Counselors. Mental Health Counselors are trained to help people gain insight into their problems and to help them develop better coping skills. They can also help the socially impaired improve relationship skills. Again, very useful, practical things. There is no 'mysticism' to it. In fact, it's just the OPPOSITE, which is why my fundamentalist inlaws were so opposed to my secular schooling! It's very cause and effect, behavior modification kind of stuff. It's just that most people are not very aware of their own thought processes and mental habits.

Anyway, I chose not to go into the field of counseling because it is too draining. A lot of people come looking for a crystal ball or a magic wand and that's not happening. It's just like losing weight... YOU have to be disciplined and do the work, there is no easy way out. With mental health, it's the same thing. A good counselor will help you hear your own bullshot.


I'm sure you know a lot about mental health counselors. The focus of the OP is psychotherapy, but what you said was interesting.
 
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