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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,004
14,538
146
There is this:

Supreme Court rules electoral college representatives must honor choice of state’s voters



WASHINGTON —
Anxious to avoid chaos in the electoral college just months before the November vote, the Supreme Court ruled Monday that electors who formally select the president can be required by the state they represent to cast their ballot for the candidate who won their state’s popular vote.

The justices unanimously rejected the claim that electors have a right under the Constitution to defy their states and vote for the candidate of their choice.
“Electors are not free agents,” Justice Elena Kagan said for the court in Chiafalo vs. Washington. “They are to vote for the candidate whom the state’s voters have chosen.” Article II of the Constitution and the 12th Amendment “give states broad power over electors, and give electors themselves no rights,” she said.

The electoral college system, created by the Founding Fathers, has been criticized as being outdated and unfair to voters. In two of the past five presidential elections, the winner came in second in the national vote but nonetheless won a combination of states that yielded more electoral votes.

The dispute before the high court could have injected an additional element of uncertainty into the presidential race.


Last year, the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver surprised election officials when it ruled that the Constitution as written in 1787 assumed the state’s electors were free to vote for their favored candidate, and if so, the same is true today.

Constitutional scholars counter that although electors may have had an independent vote at the time of the nation’s founding, they have been required since the early 1800s to vote in line with the wishes of the party whose presidential candidate won the state’s vote.

In 1804, the 12th Amendment made clear that electors would cast separate ballots for president and vice president, which confirmed “the electoral college’s emergence as a mechanism not for deliberation but for party-line voting,” Kagan said.

Ever since, the parties have chosen slates of electors who pledge to cast a ballot for the party’s presidential candidate if he or she wins the state’s vote.

Paul Smith, an election law expert with the Campaign Legal Center, said the decision prevents a potential scramble over wavering electors in November.

“Voters should go to the polls with the confidence that their vote will count and that their political system will be free from corruption,” he said. “However far from perfect the current system may be, the chaos of an unbound electoral college would have been even worse.”

In nearly every election, there are a handful of “faithless electors” who ignore their commitment and cast a vote different from their state’s voters. But these stray votes have been ignored and never made any difference in the outcome.

Most states have laws or rules that require the electors to abide by their pledges and to follow the state’s wishes. The Supreme Court agreed to hear two cases on the issue, one from Washington, where the state prevailed, and a second one from Colorado, whose binding rules were overturned.

Monday’s ruling upholds a $1,000 fine against Peter Chiafalo, one of three Washington state electors who cast their ballots for Colin Powell rather than for Democrat Hillary Clinton, who won the state’s popular vote.

Harvard University law professor Lawrence Lessig, who represented the electors, said he was not entirely disappointed to lose.

“When we launched these cases, we did it because regardless of the outcome, it was critical to resolve this question before it created a constitutional crisis. We have achieved that. Obviously, we don’t believe the court has interpreted the Constitution correctly. But we are happy that we have achieved our primary objective — this uncertainty has been removed. That is progress.”

State election officials feared that if the Supreme Court ruled that electors were free to defy the state, it could trigger enough defections to potentially upset the outcome in a very close race. During the argument in May, several justices said they feared it could create “chaos” in November if electors were not bound by their state or its laws.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
Well I think it’s high time that Joe Biden challenge the results from Texas, and Florida, and Iowa. Could be some funny stuff that happened there. After all, iOwa went for Obama twice and was a blue state until Donald Trump came along. Could it be that republicans corrupted the vote in iOwa for 2016 and 2020 elections? Trump claims Democrats have done this so obviously it can be done and probably republicans did it first. Sounds like Joe’s lawyers had better look into it if for no other reason but to piss off Donald Trump. Imagine Joe Biden challenging states that Trump won.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
136
You keep saying this about retroactive application, but do you have an article that supports this position? Because what I've read in The Atlantic (which may be alarmist) is that the Electoral Count Act is poorly written and open to interpretations. It's not completely without precedent either. In 1960, which was Hawaii's first election, they sent dueling certificates from electors to Congress. Because VP Richard Nixon knew he'd lost and probably to preserve his political future, as presiding officer of the Senate, he accepted the certificate for JFK.

Here's a Politico op piece on this subject:

A better article, referenced by Axios:

In short, it's a true long shot but DJT has no qualms about burning the country to the ground for his personal benefit.
Sure, here’s one such article from Lawfare.


As the article mentions, all other legal issues aside the electors must be chosen on Election Day, and that day has already passed.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,291
8,208
136
There is this:

Supreme Court rules electoral college representatives must honor choice of state’s voters



WASHINGTON —
Anxious to avoid chaos in the electoral college just months before the November vote, the Supreme Court ruled Monday that electors who formally select the president can be required by the state they represent to cast their ballot for the candidate who won their state’s popular vote.

The justices unanimously rejected the claim that electors have a right under the Constitution to defy their states and vote for the candidate of their choice.
“Electors are not free agents,” Justice Elena Kagan said for the court in Chiafalo vs. Washington. “They are to vote for the candidate whom the state’s voters have chosen.” Article II of the Constitution and the 12th Amendment “give states broad power over electors, and give electors themselves no rights,” she said.

The electoral college system, created by the Founding Fathers, has been criticized as being outdated and unfair to voters. In two of the past five presidential elections, the winner came in second in the national vote but nonetheless won a combination of states that yielded more electoral votes.

The dispute before the high court could have injected an additional element of uncertainty into the presidential race.


Last year, the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver surprised election officials when it ruled that the Constitution as written in 1787 assumed the state’s electors were free to vote for their favored candidate, and if so, the same is true today.

Constitutional scholars counter that although electors may have had an independent vote at the time of the nation’s founding, they have been required since the early 1800s to vote in line with the wishes of the party whose presidential candidate won the state’s vote.

In 1804, the 12th Amendment made clear that electors would cast separate ballots for president and vice president, which confirmed “the electoral college’s emergence as a mechanism not for deliberation but for party-line voting,” Kagan said.

Ever since, the parties have chosen slates of electors who pledge to cast a ballot for the party’s presidential candidate if he or she wins the state’s vote.

Paul Smith, an election law expert with the Campaign Legal Center, said the decision prevents a potential scramble over wavering electors in November.

“Voters should go to the polls with the confidence that their vote will count and that their political system will be free from corruption,” he said. “However far from perfect the current system may be, the chaos of an unbound electoral college would have been even worse.”

In nearly every election, there are a handful of “faithless electors” who ignore their commitment and cast a vote different from their state’s voters. But these stray votes have been ignored and never made any difference in the outcome.

Most states have laws or rules that require the electors to abide by their pledges and to follow the state’s wishes. The Supreme Court agreed to hear two cases on the issue, one from Washington, where the state prevailed, and a second one from Colorado, whose binding rules were overturned.

Monday’s ruling upholds a $1,000 fine against Peter Chiafalo, one of three Washington state electors who cast their ballots for Colin Powell rather than for Democrat Hillary Clinton, who won the state’s popular vote.

Harvard University law professor Lawrence Lessig, who represented the electors, said he was not entirely disappointed to lose.

“When we launched these cases, we did it because regardless of the outcome, it was critical to resolve this question before it created a constitutional crisis. We have achieved that. Obviously, we don’t believe the court has interpreted the Constitution correctly. But we are happy that we have achieved our primary objective — this uncertainty has been removed. That is progress.”

State election officials feared that if the Supreme Court ruled that electors were free to defy the state, it could trigger enough defections to potentially upset the outcome in a very close race. During the argument in May, several justices said they feared it could create “chaos” in November if electors were not bound by their state or its laws.

Isn't that about 'faithless electors', i.e. it's about insisting that the electors must vote how their state tells them to vote. That seems a separate issue from how the state's 'wishes' are determined in the first place.

Not that I know much about the law - the article is a bit confusing, in that it starts off implying that the ruling refers specifically to 'the popular vote', but then says

Article II of the Constitution and the 12th Amendment “give states broad power over electors, and give electors themselves no rights,”

Which doesn't necessarily mean 'the states' must follow the popular vote, when it comes to exercising their power over electors.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
136
Isn't that about 'faithless electors', i.e. it's about insisting that the electors must vote how their state tells them to vote. That seems a separate issue from how the state's 'wishes' are determined in the first place.

Not that I know much about the law - the article is a bit confusing, in that it starts off implying that the ruling refers specifically to 'the popular vote', but then says



Which doesn't necessarily mean 'the states' must follow the popular vote, when it comes to exercising their power over electors.
No, it’s about the legislatures powers.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,291
8,208
136
Sure, here’s one such article from Lawfare.


As the article mentions, all other legal issues aside the electors must be chosen on Election Day, and that day has already passed.


OK, that article seems more to-the-point.

Edit - though it does mention the way that this idea goes back to the 2000 case, which is the impression I had. That it was that occasion (where I think Gore let the whole world down - particularly the tens-of-thousands who died in Iraq and Afghanistan - by conceding too easily) that created this Republican taste for bypassing the electorate. They now seem to be of the opinion, as Guilinani declared in that weird industrial park press-conference, that 'elections are decided by the courts' (not voters!)
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,364
2,373
136
Sure, here’s one such article from Lawfare.


As the article mentions, all other legal issues aside the electors must be chosen on Election Day, and that day has already passed.
I'm not sure if that particular clause means what you think it means?
Presumably, the political parties for the candidates chose their electors on or before Election Day. The question is which certificate gets sent to Congress? The state legislature could claim their GOP slate does, while the governor claims a Democratic slate representing the certified vote count of the voters.

Overall, a good article and it looks like the Supreme Court case referenced (Chiafolo vs Washington) is a lot stronger than I was previously understanding. Having said that, it's still a legal opinion of Prof. Lessig that because Chiafolo stripped electors of the "superpower" to choose, it stands to reason that legislatures were similarly stripped. It's also ironic that Lessig was arguing for faithless elector Chiafolo against the state of Washington.

A lot of things would have to go wrong for this strategy to truly come into play, but I still see gray area here that must not discounted just because it's the only option remaining for a madman. Joe Biden's legal team has already game-planned for it, in fact.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer nor do I pretend to play one on these forums.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
136
I'm not sure if that particular clause means what you think it means?
Presumably, the political parties for the candidates chose their electors on or before Election Day. The question is which certificate gets sent to Congress? The state legislature could claim their GOP slate does, while the governor claims a Democratic slate representing the certified vote count of the voters.

Overall, a good article and it looks like the Supreme Court case referenced (Chiafolo vs Washington) is a lot stronger than I was previously understanding. Having said that, it's still a legal opinion of Prof. Lessig that because Chiafolo stripped electors of the "superpower" to choose, it stands to reason that legislatures were similarly stripped. It's also ironic that Lessig was arguing for faithless elector Chiafolo against the state of Washington.

A lot of things would have to go wrong for this strategy to truly come into play, but I still see gray area here that must not discounted just because it's the only option remaining for a madman. Joe Biden's legal team has already game-planned for it, in fact.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer nor do I pretend to play one on these forums.
The clause means the state must choose the electors on Election Day and the process we use for choosing electors is who wins the popular vote. Even if we don’t know the results of the ‘choice’ with total certainty yet the choice has still already been made. If the legislature were to change the law to award Trump its electors then they would be violating the Constitution by choosing the electors on a day other than Election Day.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,291
8,208
136
Sure, here’s one such article from Lawfare.


As the article mentions, all other legal issues aside the electors must be chosen on Election Day, and that day has already passed.


Yeah, that seems a strong, and reassuring, argument. Essentially then they are saying that because past court-rulings have determined that EC electors are constrained absolutely by the wishes of their state, it would therefore be absurd to then allow the state legislatures to determine those wishes, while ignoring the popular vote? Because doing that would take you right back to having state legislatures choose the President, which the Framers explicitly decided was not a good idea.

As convincing as that argument sounds to me, it still seems a little worrying that it could ultimately depend on the Supreme Court agreeing with that reasoning. Given that Kavanagh, for example, is so nakedly partisan that he came out with that nonsense about 'postal ballots' 'flipping the result'. As if there was any 'result' to flip before the votes had been counted.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
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Yeah, that seems a strong, and reassuring, argument. Essentially then they are saying that because past court-rulings have determined that EC electors are constrained absolutely by the wishes of their state, it would therefore be absurd to then allow the state legislatures to determine those wishes, while ignoring the popular vote? Because doing that would take you right back to having state legislatures choose the President, which the Framers explicitly decided was not a good idea.

As convincing as that argument sounds to me, it still seems a little worrying that it could ultimately depend on the Supreme Court agreeing with that reasoning. Given that Kavanagh, for example, is so nakedly partisan that he came out with that nonsense about 'postal ballots' 'flipping the result'. As if there was any 'result' to flip before the votes had been counted.
I do agree that it’s possible SCOTUS is so compromised that they will go along with even a manifestly absurd position like this.

While that is scary, if that’s the case then US democracy is already dead, we just hadn’t noticed yet.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,364
2,373
136
I don't see how that interpretation is possible. Most elections aren't certified for days or even weeks, so how can the state select the presidential electors on Election Day?

Yeah, that seems a strong, and reassuring, argument. Essentially then they are saying that because past court-rulings have determined that EC electors are constrained absolutely by the wishes of their state, it would therefore be absurd to then allow the state legislatures to determine those wishes, while ignoring the popular vote? Because doing that would take you right back to having state legislatures choose the President, which the Framers explicitly decided was not a good idea.

As convincing as that argument sounds to me, it still seems a little worrying that it could ultimately depend on the Supreme Court agreeing with that reasoning. Given that Kavanagh, for example, is so nakedly partisan that he came out with that nonsense about 'postal ballots' 'flipping the result'. As if there was any 'result' to flip before the votes had been counted.
I don't think SCOTUS will be a big problem here. They were unanimous in the summer case Chiafolo vs Washington so it would take a lot more than Kav being a d-bag to make a majority.

Having said that, the Constitution itself is fairly clear that state legislatures have the power to pick electors. What the Chiafolo majority ruling said is that the original text had long been superseded by the states' popular votes. I.e. democracy > originalism.

I hadn't realized there were so many faithless electors in 2016. FFS people irrationally hated Hillary Clinton.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
I do not PA law but I can't imagine the legislature can appoint a rump slate of Electoral College electors without passing a law on that point, and getting that law past the almost certain veto of the (Democratic) governor.

Back in the early days of the USA such a thing was possible-heck you had to be a white male and land owner to vote-but if such a thing happened now and if the Supreme Court upheld we wouldn't even have the pretense of being a democracy or part of the so-called free world. This may be the talk among wack jobs Donnie surrounds himself with, and he may very well believe it himself, but it will not happen-without dooming the US to a quick collapse.

Biden should continue on his course-make sure all votes are properly tabulated and certified, and the appropriate slates picked. He should NOT under any circumstances file the same sort of BS lawsuits that Donnie is.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I do not PA law but I can't imagine the legislature can appoint a rump slate of Electoral College electors without passing a law on that point, and getting that law past the almost certain veto of the (Democratic) governor.

Back in the early days of the USA such a thing was possible-heck you had to be a white male and land owner to vote-but if such a thing happened now and if the Supreme Court upheld we wouldn't even have the pretense of being a democracy or part of the so-called free world. This may be the talk among wack jobs Donnie surrounds himself with, and he may very well believe it himself, but it will not happen-without dooming the US to a quick collapse.

Biden should continue on his course-make sure all votes are properly tabulated and certified, and the appropriate slates picked. He should NOT under any circumstances file the same sort of BS lawsuits that Donnie is.

The slates were picked long before election day. Whoever you voted for, you actually voted for the slate of electors put forth by the state party of that candidate, the ones they needed to put forth to be on the ballot at all. Expect lots of desperate GOP noise making, lawsuits, recounts, audits, threats & tears up until Dec 8. Trump lost & there's no way to change it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,823
49,521
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I don't see how that interpretation is possible. Most elections aren't certified for days or even weeks, so how can the state select the presidential electors on Election Day?


I don't think SCOTUS will be a big problem here. They were unanimous in the summer case Chiafolo vs Washington so it would take a lot more than Kav being a d-bag to make a majority.

Having said that, the Constitution itself is fairly clear that state legislatures have the power to pick electors. What the Chiafolo majority ruling said is that the original text had long been superseded by the states' popular votes. I.e. democracy > originalism.

I hadn't realized there were so many faithless electors in 2016. FFS people irrationally hated Hillary Clinton.
Because the act of choosing electors is people voting. The rest is just confirming that the state correctly understands the choice.
 

gothuevos

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2010
2,104
1,740
136
All these crazy EC scenarios...if any one of them were to pass, America would instantly be over. Sadly half the electorate seems to think it should and needs to happen.

This is all one continued grift... right guys?? Please be right LOL.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
All these crazy EC scenarios...if any one of them were to pass, America would instantly be over. Sadly half the electorate seems to think it should and needs to happen.

This is all one continued grift... right guys?? Please be right LOL.

Not nearly half-

 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,344
15,152
136
I don't see how, constitutionally, electoral college voters have to vote according to their state's laws. The constitution was pretty specific that the states decide how electors are chosen, it says nothing on how they are supposed to vote. In fact the discussion in the federalist papers made it pretty clear that the purpose of the electors was to have a small body of people who, aren't in any elected office, and who would be free from corrupting influence. The point was that these electors were to be too smart and rational to succumb to the madness of the general population who had become enamored with an unqualified or corrupt individual or a single cause that could harm the rest of the country.


So how is that supposed to happen if the electors are bound by state laws, written by elected people, who could currently still be in office, be free from such corrupt influence and irrational enamoration?

 

SmCaudata

Senior member
Oct 8, 2006
969
1,532
136
Faithless electors
.

Most of the Biden electors are protected minus PA and GA. So I guess in theory if Trump could invalidate the entirety of those two states, he'd only need one other faithless elector willing to face a penalty.

In reality though, I think a military coup is more likely that Trump winning in court or by manipulation of the EC quirks.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,848
8,311
136
The United States of America that you knew is no longer. We have already collapsed. This is what collapse looks like. We are not united, we are divided. What is worst is that the 1/2 of us refuse to accept the results of the election. Polling the public doesn't mean much when the current administration refuses to accept that they have been voted out of office. We are in deep shit and getting deeper. The worst problem is not the pandemic although that is gonna get dramatically worse over the winter. The worst problem is the global warming crisis, a problem not even acknowledged to exist by the current administration or the Republican Party, which boggles the mind. The Republican Party didn't even have a platform committee this year. They have absolutely no official agenda. This year, like seemingly every previous year recently, has seen the worst storm season ever, and it still is not over. The Republicans want to stanch efforts to fight global warming. We are heading willy nilly toward our miserable doom. I think there's one hope now and that's the Senate going blue in January along with the inauguration of Biden & Harris. And even then the important work will have only begun.
 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,364
2,373
136
Faithless electors
.

Most of the Biden electors are protected minus PA and GA. So I guess in theory if Trump could invalidate the entirety of those two states, he'd only need one other faithless elector willing to face a penalty.

In reality though, I think a military coup is more likely that Trump winning in court or by manipulation of the EC quirks.
It would take 37 faithless electors to flip to change the outcome; nobody is debating that happening. The PA/MI/WI electors are semi-protected because they have Democratic governors who will accept the certified elections results and thus submit the Biden electors' certificate to Congress.

Again, I'm no legal scholar, but the play would have to be Trump creates enough legal chaos that prevents PA, GA and AZ from certifying their votes on time for the Electoral College. In that scenario, those state legislatures step in and submit the Trump slate of electors because the will of the voters cannot be discerned. This is seemingly Constitutional, although it disagrees with every democratic principle we stand for, and runs against the Supreme Court's unanimous decision in Chiafolo.

Whether this has enough probability to even discuss is debatable, as is whether a military coup is thus more likely. Anyway, I'm done debating a highly unlikely scenario. All I'm saying is that if the law was so clear, we wouldn't even be having this discussion at all. What is obvious is that we dodged a much worse scenario: an election like 2000 where the EC is a near tie and the tipping point state(s) have a margin of victory in the hundreds of votes.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
Sure, here’s one such article from Lawfare.


As the article mentions, all other legal issues aside the electors must be chosen on Election Day, and that day has already passed.
OK, now I feel a -bit- better after reading that, (pretty good read too) but it just seems this was plan trump was possibly
willing to try as a last-ditch attempt. We already know hs gives zero fucks about the lives of the people of this country.
 
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