The **OFFICIAL** Auzentech X-Meridian Thread

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd
no EAX = I won't buy or recommend it. I'm a gamer, and I build systems for gamers. EAX is almost a necessary feature.

It has EAX support, but only up to 2.0, which means only basic support for directional sourcing and occlusion. That would mean it's also limited to 32 voices, I believe.

Which is basically useless for games like Fear, Doom3, Quake4, Prey etc. which as far as I know use EAX 3

But you ignore the potential all around sound quality increases? Not trying to say your opinion is wrong but I think riding this card off as "useless" for gaming is a bit shortsighted.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd
no EAX = I won't buy or recommend it. I'm a gamer, and I build systems for gamers. EAX is almost a necessary feature.

It has EAX support, but only up to 2.0, which means only basic support for directional sourcing and occlusion. That would mean it's also limited to 32 voices, I believe.

Which is basically useless for games like Fear, Doom3, Quake4, Prey etc. which as far as I know use EAX 3

But you ignore the potential all around sound quality increases? Not trying to say your opinion is wrong but I think riding this card off as "useless" for gaming is a bit shortsighted.

My gaming experience revolves around effects and positional audio. If a bullet richocet is more realistic sounding from one card vs another that's not a concern. EAX3 effects are important to me and that's why I have to recommend Creative products. Now if someone wasn't a gamer and was doing alot of music and multimedia things then sure options are out there (even in the high end professional realm), but I always think as a gamer who needs the support from all of the games. Probably because I built my PC to be a gaming system before anything else, and used to be stuck with Macs.

 

[Liver]

hell with it. I just ordered one.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: Liver
hell with it. I just ordered one.

Sweet tell us how it is!

 

[dli2k3]

My gaming experience revolves around effects and positional audio. If a bullet richocet is more realistic sounding from one card vs another that's not a concern. EAX3 effects are important to me and that's why I have to recommend Creative products. Now if someone wasn't a gamer and was doing alot of music and multimedia things then sure options are out there (even in the high end professional realm), but I always think as a gamer who needs the support from all of the games. Probably because I built my PC to be a gaming system before anything else, and used to be stuck with Macs.

Ok, you're right that EAX gives you a bit more sound effects. However, its surround engine totally sux. Now do yourself a favor and play a few games with DDL surround and you'll see the difference. In the end, sound effects are much less important than correct surround. By the way, you seem to imply that gamers only play FPS games. I'm a huge gamer myself and I can really say that advanced EAX, i.e. v4 and 5 and are only supported in the latest FPS games and not supported in most other popular games...Oblivion anyone? Also, Creative's OpenAL support is not any better than Auzentech's. In fact, it might be even worse as their openAL drivers are really outdated.

For people out there who's wondering if you should buy this card or an X-FI, the choice is simple. Do you have Dolby Digital or DTS support with your speakers? (Home Theater or Z-5500)? If you do, then you need this card to use your speakers to its max potential. If you don't, then you'd best go with the X-Fi.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: dli2k3

My gaming experience revolves around effects and positional audio. If a bullet richocet is more realistic sounding from one card vs another that's not a concern. EAX3 effects are important to me and that's why I have to recommend Creative products. Now if someone wasn't a gamer and was doing alot of music and multimedia things then sure options are out there (even in the high end professional realm), but I always think as a gamer who needs the support from all of the games. Probably because I built my PC to be a gaming system before anything else, and used to be stuck with Macs.

Ok, you're right that EAX gives you a bit more sound effects. However, its surround engine totally sux. Now do yourself a favor and play a few games with DDL surround and you'll see the difference. In the end, sound effects are much less important than correct surround. By the way, you seem to imply that gamers only play FPS games. I'm a huge gamer myself and I can really say that advanced EAX, i.e. v4 and 5 and are only supported in the latest FPS games and not supported in most other popular games...Oblivion anyone? Also, Creative's OpenAL support is not any better than Auzentech's. In fact, it might be even worse as their openAL drivers are really outdated.

For people out there who's wondering if you should buy this card or an X-FI, the choice is simple. Do you have Dolby Digital or DTS support with your speakers? (Home Theater or Z-5500)? If you do, then you need this card to use your speakers to its max potential. If you don't, then you'd best go with the X-Fi.

Actually, if you have the Z-5500's, I would recommend using this cards analog capabilities, not the DDL or DTS capabilities....

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: dli2k3

Ok, you're right that EAX gives you a bit more sound effects. However, its surround engine totally sux. Now do yourself a favor and play a few games with DDL surround and you'll see the difference. In the end, sound effects are much less important than correct surround. By the way, you seem to imply that gamers only play FPS games. I'm a huge gamer myself and I can really say that advanced EAX, i.e. v4 and 5 and are only supported in the latest FPS games and not supported in most other popular games...Oblivion anyone? Also, Creative's OpenAL support is not any better than Auzentech's. In fact, it might be even worse as their openAL drivers are really outdated.

For people out there who's wondering if you should buy this card or an X-FI, the choice is simple. Do you have Dolby Digital or DTS support with your speakers? (Home Theater or Z-5500)? If you do, then you need this card to use your speakers to its max potential. If you don't, then you'd best go with the X-Fi.

Que? DDL is simply an encoder. Thus whatever effects the sound card is capable of (within the limits imposed by the game) are compressed with some information being discarded in the process and some delay (either of which may be measurable but not necessarily noticeable). Therefore, if a given game employs EAX5, 128 voices and a hardware OpenAL renderer with an X-Fi but with anything else dumbs that down to EAX2, 32 voices and software rendering with additional software translation to DirectSound3D which in the case of the Auzentech then optionally goes through aforemention encoding process (then decoding by an external decoder) the final output is going to differ dramatically in content and also significantly in fidelity (where a PC speaker kit's DACs are worse than the sound card's).

As for OpenAL, Creative last released a driver in June while neither Auzentech nor C-Media have ever released one. The card simply does not "support" OpenAL. That's bad now and will be worse with Vista as DS3D will not be accelerated so such cards will be no better than el cheapo host based audio. If so desperate for 4+ channel digital output, you may then be better with a $40 Audigy variant (EMU10K2 with hardware OpenAL) and a software AC3 encoder.

 

[Liver]

I'll let you know once I get the card. I went for the "trade up" program.

As far as I am concerned. I bought the card for Dolby Headphone. I don't want the 5.1 surround system in my office any more. I used to have 2 really nice surround systems. Full surround systems (nice speakers, nice receivers), but I don't want that anymore. I like playing games with headphones on.

So a question. Can headphones 100% accurately give 5.1 sound? No, not really.

So why is surround sound important to me? It adds to the immersion of the game or movie. It enhances the overall experience. You really don't need to have full surround to know what is happening in a movie or game, but it really helps draw you in.

Headphones (for me) enhance the overall gaming experience. Sometimes I listen to my headphones while watching movies (on my home theater system). The Dolby headphone experience is very nice. I like it alot, and I recommend that you try it out.

That is the reason I am getting this card. If the CPU needs to decode openAL, then I'll get a dual core system to do that. So I miss out on some EAX effects. I can deal with that, as long as I get Dolby Headphone. Yes, I did have an Xfi. The whole experience was worse with Xfi and heaphones than auzentech xplosion -> optical -> JVC sudh1 for dobly headphone.

 

[ViRGE]

Granted I am likely out of my league, but it would seem that Dolby Headphone is just a static DSP with pre-computed transformation functions for converting a traditional 5-direction sound setup in to something that has a similar effect for headphones. Compared to a dynamic solution like the X-Fi, where it uses generalized modeling to try to calculate sounds from any angle, I question how Dolby Headphone could be superior, especially when it has no way of representing vertical position.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: ViRGE
Granted I am likely out of my league, but it would seem that Dolby Headphone is just a static DSP with pre-computed transformation functions for converting a traditional 5-direction sound setup in to something that has a similar effect for headphones. Compared to a dynamic solution like the X-Fi, where it uses generalized modeling to try to calculate sounds from any angle, I question how Dolby Headphone could be superior, especially when it has no way of representing vertical position.

So you are implying that CMSS3D is a more advanced system that is able to emulate height from two speakers? I can't say I have ever seen a published technical description of the inner workings of CMSS but if you could provide where you got this information it would be a cool read.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: ViRGE
Granted I am likely out of my league, but it would seem that Dolby Headphone is just a static DSP with pre-computed transformation functions for converting a traditional 5-direction sound setup in to something that has a similar effect for headphones. Compared to a dynamic solution like the X-Fi, where it uses generalized modeling to try to calculate sounds from any angle, I question how Dolby Headphone could be superior, especially when it has no way of representing vertical position.

So you are implying that CMSS3D is a more advanced system that is able to emulate height from two speakers? I can't say I have ever seen a published technical description of the inner workings of CMSS but if you could provide where you got this information it would be a cool read.

My understanding of Creative's 3D audio pipeline for games is as such: game->DS3D(where applicable)->EAX->HRTF->Output, where the audio streams are described as positional data up to the point where it hits the HRTF, and then is processed to give it spatialized attributes and dumped to the DACs and pushed out. This would compared to Dolby Headphone, where I'm assuming the pipeline is game->DS3D->EAX->5.1 rendering->Dolby Headphone DSP->Output. The key here is that as near as I can tell, Dolby Headphone can only take 5(.1) sound, and that no HRTF functionality is taking place to give the audio vertical properties in the 5.1 rendering stage(which AFAIK even Creative doesn't do).

I'm just heading out the door right now, I'll see if I can't find anything when I get back. Like I said, audio isn't my specialty, so it's entirely possible I'm wrong here.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

I observed no illusion of height using CMSS3D with an A2ZS with Senn 280's. CMSS1 was my choice for games, but since it is applied to the digital output into my receiver, I quit using it.

 

[Liver]

ok the latest response from auzentech. this one is a little closer, but just doesn't answer the direct question.

does dolby headphone output from the digital out?

Here is the last response to your ticket:

- Addition -

Dolby Headphone technology is available without the need for any individual
adjustments and the only thing you need is a system capable of processing audio
with this function.

Dolby Headphone technology is based on Analog output.
However, you will be able to get also PCM digital output on the X-Meridian.

So I resubmitted the question. "Will dolby headphone output via digital? Yes or no."

On another note, I'll probably get the X-Fi again and try it out with the new setup I have.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
I observed no illusion of height using CMSS3D with an A2ZS with Senn 280's. CMSS1 was my choice for games, but since it is applied to the digital output into my receiver, I quit using it.

The HRTFs on the Audigy were a joke, you were lucky if you got any sound coming from more than the inside of your head.

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
I observed no illusion of height using CMSS3D with an A2ZS with Senn 280's. CMSS1 was my choice for games, but since it is applied to the digital output into my receiver, I quit using it.

The HRTFs on the Audigy were a joke, you were lucky if you got any sound coming from more than the inside of your head.

Indeed. X-Fi sports specific options for ElevationFilter and MacroFX but in any case the difference is dramatic. I agree with your last few posts ViRGE. I don't know how many different ways the basic concept can be explained but essentially only the Creative cards are capable of creating the maximum possible content. Whether that is later output via analog or digital is relatively inconsequential but additional processing via DH or such would be undesirable.

Liver, to repeat, yes DH can normally be output via PCM since is just 2ch with matrixed surround. I frequently use such effects in just that way for discreet movie listening (actualy preferring SRS TruSurroundXT). However, the downmix is being done in software. If the C-Media card has a DH option for RT mixing (games) then it certainly should work with normal headphones from a receiver or if output in, say, 6ch, then it should work with your DH headphones . But the difference is that pre-recorded content will essentially be the same across systems regardless of the method. DH and/or DDL cannot make up for the missing content in the first place.

 

[DasFox]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
If it doesn't support OpenAL or EAX 4.0/5.0 it's pretty useless for gaming.

A lot of modern games support those features.

So in other words, this card SUCKS for gaming?

ALOHA

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: DasFox

Originally posted by: BFG10K
If it doesn't support OpenAL or EAX 4.0/5.0 it's pretty useless for gaming.

A lot of modern games support those features.

So in other words, this card SUCKS for gaming?

ALOHA

Yeah, verily. Really, it doesn't have much reason for being since the encoding could only be a benefit for games via S/PDIF yet it just isn't any more suitable for gaming than onboard audio. Indeed the function is available with some onboard audio where one could at least understand preferring to eschew cheap DACs in favour of those in a receiver (as opposed to PC speaker kit). If it was $50 it may be good for a casual gamer who uses a receiver anyway but otherwise... why?

 

[Liver]

Originally posted by: Auric

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
I observed no illusion of height using CMSS3D with an A2ZS with Senn 280's. CMSS1 was my choice for games, but since it is applied to the digital output into my receiver, I quit using it.

The HRTFs on the Audigy were a joke, you were lucky if you got any sound coming from more than the inside of your head.

Indeed. X-Fi sports specific options for ElevationFilter and MacroFX but in any case the difference is dramatic. I agree with your last few posts ViRGE. I don't know how many different ways the basic concept can be explained but essentially only the Creative cards are capable of creating the maximum possible content. Whether that is later output via analog or digital is relatively inconsequential but additional processing via DH or such would be undesirable.

Liver, to repeat, yes DH can normally be output via PCM since is just 2ch with matrixed surround. I frequently use such effects in just that way for discreet movie listening (actualy preferring SRS TruSurroundXT). However, the downmix is being done in software. If the C-Media card has a DH option for RT mixing (games) then it certainly should work with normal headphones from a receiver or if output in, say, 6ch, then it should work with your DH headphones . But the difference is that pre-recorded content will essentially be the same across systems regardless of the method. DH and/or DDL cannot make up for the missing content in the first place.

Thanks for the information.

I have cancelled my order. I have purchased an X-Fi Elite Pro, and should be receiving it by early next week.

I currently have the XPlosion, so that is what it will replace.

I do like to game, and I like to game with headphones. If the elite pro will help with gaming and gaming with headphones, I am listening. All the reviews I have read have been quite favorable. Some people might say that it is expensive, and not worth it, but it seems to the best offering in the Xfi lineup.

If the reviews of the Meridian are better, maybe I'll get it then. For the time being, I don't care who makes the card as long as it sounds good and lends to the overall experience with headphones.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: Liver

Originally posted by: Auric

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler
I observed no illusion of height using CMSS3D with an A2ZS with Senn 280's. CMSS1 was my choice for games, but since it is applied to the digital output into my receiver, I quit using it.

The HRTFs on the Audigy were a joke, you were lucky if you got any sound coming from more than the inside of your head.

Indeed. X-Fi sports specific options for ElevationFilter and MacroFX but in any case the difference is dramatic. I agree with your last few posts ViRGE. I don't know how many different ways the basic concept can be explained but essentially only the Creative cards are capable of creating the maximum possible content. Whether that is later output via analog or digital is relatively inconsequential but additional processing via DH or such would be undesirable.

Liver, to repeat, yes DH can normally be output via PCM since is just 2ch with matrixed surround. I frequently use such effects in just that way for discreet movie listening (actualy preferring SRS TruSurroundXT). However, the downmix is being done in software. If the C-Media card has a DH option for RT mixing (games) then it certainly should work with normal headphones from a receiver or if output in, say, 6ch, then it should work with your DH headphones . But the difference is that pre-recorded content will essentially be the same across systems regardless of the method. DH and/or DDL cannot make up for the missing content in the first place.

Thanks for the information.

I have cancelled my order. I have purchased an X-Fi Elite Pro, and should be receiving it by early next week.

I currently have the XPlosion, so that is what it will replace.

I do like to game, and I like to game with headphones. If the elite pro will help with gaming and gaming with headphones, I am listening. All the reviews I have read have been quite favorable. Some people might say that it is expensive, and not worth it, but it seems to the best offering in the Xfi lineup.

If the reviews of the Meridian are better, maybe I'll get it then. For the time being, I don't care who makes the card as long as it sounds good and lends to the overall experience with headphones.

Whether you like it or not, Creative went through a lot of trouble to make sure that they are the only game in town for gaming audio. They ran Aureal in to the ground(and then bought them up), bought up Sensaura(the guys who provided the 3D audio tech for SoundStorm), and sued id to force them to put in OpenAL abilities in to the Doom 3 engine. EAX alone gives them a very large leg up since that's the defacto standard for advanced 3D audio, but the number of additional patents they own to keep people from coming up with competing hardware is just silly.

By all means, if you don't care about gaming that much there are better products; based on the specs I would expect the X-Meridian to beat the X-Fi heartily in areas other than gaming. But for gaming, we're all Creative's henchmen.

 

[Liver]

By all means, if you don't care about gaming that much there are better products; based on the specs I would expect the X-Meridian to beat the X-Fi heartily in areas other than gaming.

I agree with you. Take a look at the X-fi elite specs, they are quite nice.

 

[Auric]

Are you doing muzak creation also? Otherwise the Elite Pro won't really benefit headphone gaming over the Fatardity which likewise sports the additional 62MB RAM which in itself may be of dubious value over a bog standard Music version. Really, the Music + good headphones (maybe your JVC with DH off?) with an amp (your receiver or seperate) ought to be sufficient. But in any case I'm sure you will be pleased with the result.

 

[Liver]

Originally posted by: Auric
Are you doing muzak creation also? Otherwise the Elite Pro won't really benefit headphone gaming over the Fatardity which likewise sports the additional 62MB RAM which in itself may be of dubious value over a bog standard Music version. Really, the Music + good headphones (maybe your JVC with DH off?) with an amp (your receiver or seperate) ought to be sufficient. But in any case I'm sure you will be pleased with the result.

I'll test it with several other pieces.

However, it seems like the elite pro is different from the rest of the xfi line. Different in a same sortof way. greater fidelity. neither one of the two are cheap, might as well get the top dog. If that card can't cut it in audiophilia, then then the rest of line won't either (IMO).

I am not an audiophile who automatically dismisses Soundblasters as not being up to snuff, just because creative makes them. I am willing to try it out. If it comes close (which I am sure it will) I am sure that it will also blow away other sound cards in gaming quality. The whole experience is what I am looking for.

 

[Liver]

Got another response from Auzentech

Thanks again for contacting Auzentech, Inc.

Dolby headphone technology is designed to be based on Analog.

Although it is possible to work PCM digital output on X-Meridian, it is better
that you do not expect the great sounds on Digtal.

 

[DasFox]

Well I guess I'm keeping my X-Fi XtremeMusic.

ALOHA

 

[w00t]

I think i'll stick with Integrated.....