The official Electric Car discussion thread

[Kaido]

Rather than having a million threads about electric cars (mostly started by myself :biggrin, I figured we could have a consolidated discussion thread on developments in the EV field - new cars, battery progress, etc. I'll update this post occasionally with a list of interesting resources.

Introduction to EV:

Cars have typically been ICE-powered vehicles (internal combustion engine), available in either gas or diesel models. Then hybrids like the Prius came out, which offered improved range by combining a battery with an electric motor to assist the gas engine. This was called a parallel hybrid because both the gas and electric motors turned the wheels. Then came plug-in hybrids, which had bigger battery packs and allowed the electric motor to be the primary motor instead of the gas one. So a regular hybrid is an HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle) and a plug-in was a PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle). Next came series hybrid cars, where you have both a gas and electric motor, but only the electric motor turns the wheels. So basically the gas engine acts as an onboard generator (the Volt is the most famous series hybrid car). The big benefit of this is that you can drive for up to 50 miles on battery power, then it kicks over to gas for an extra 300 miles and you can just keep filling up as long as you need to. Finally, we have electric-only vehicles, or EV's, such as the Nissan Leaf. So to recap:

1. ICE
2. Parallel HEV
3. Parallel PHEV
4. Series HEV
5. EV

And with more detail:

1. ICE: Gas or diesel
2. Parallel HEV: Gas & electric motor (gas primary, has a battery)
3. Parallel PHEV: Gas & electric motor (electric primary, plug-in + bigger battery)
4. Series HEV: Electric motor with gas generator
5. EV: Electric-only

There's also some other funky stuff like fuel cell-powered cars (such as the Honda FCX Clarity, which runs off hydrogen, also known as an FCEV or fuel cell electric vehicle), natural gas powered cars (like the Honda Civic powered by CNG), and air-powered cars (like the Tata Nano with the compressed air engine), but we'll keep this thread mostly focused on electric & electric-assisted vehicles.

Currently available electric cars: (only listing widely-available models)
Smart Fortwo Electric link
Fiat 500e link
Mitsubishi i-MiEV link
Ford Focus Electric link
Chevy Spark EV link
Nissan Leaf link
Honda Fit EV link
Tesla Model S link

Currently available plug-in hybrid cars: (Big list here)
Toyota Prius link
Chevy Volt link
Ford Fusion Energi SE link
Ford C-MAX Energi link

Currently available hybrid cars: (too many to list)
Big list here

Electric Car Resources:
Autoblog Electric Car News
LA Times articles on Electric Cars
Green Car Reports
Autoweek Green Car News
Jalopnik Electric Car News

 

[Kaido]

Anyway, the reason I posted this is that I just learned that Smartcar has an electric version available:

http://www.smartusa.com/models/electric-drive/overview.aspx

Available in coupe & cabriolet trims, $25k before tax credit, 76 city, 59 hwy and 68 combined, 6 hour charge time from empty, 0-62 in 11.5 (96 pound-feet of torque and 76 horsepower). That's a pretty expensive golf cart :awe: Surprisingly, it seems to have good reviews:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/f...less-ed-cant-get-it-up-to-speed-very-quickly/

So yet another option in the EV stable!

 

[desy]

Electric cars are easy
Batteries are hard

 

[Vetterin]

My neighbor bought a Tesla S 2 weeks ago and while it is nice as sheetz and he loves it, he said he's only getting 130-150 miles out of it.

 

[Kaido]

My neighbor bought a Tesla S 2 weeks ago and while it is nice as sheetz and he loves it, he said he's only getting 130-150 miles out of it.

Wow, does he drive it hard? Or mostly highway?

 

[Kaido]

Electric cars are easy
Batteries are hard

Yeah...the Smart, Leaf, and Fit electrics all get in the 70/80-mile range. Tesla is getting mega-range compared those (200 to 265), but you pay over double the price for it.

 

[Kaido]

CNET reviews 7 electric cars: (pictures + brief summary)

http://reviews.cnet.com/2300-10863_7-10017341.html

1. Tesla S
2. Ford Focus Electric
3. Nissan Leaf
4. Fiat 500e
5. Honda Fit EV
6. Mitsubishi i-Miev
7. Toyota RAV4 EV

 

[skyking]

The Volt is no longer for sale?

 

[JulesMaximus]

I work with the woman who owns this electric MR-2. I've ridden in it and it is bitchin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmDyK4Dyu-E

Plug for their website and some of the vehicles they've converted to electric only.

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/vehicles.php?osCsid=5dgpm3dmdadgfn4l09dp7j1482

I'm not a big proponent of electric only vehicles primarily because of the limited range. It just wouldn't work for me at all. A hybrid is much more practical. I can fill up for $50 and drive almost 600 miles on a tank of regular gasoline with my hybrid so that is what I chose.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Why is only the Prius listed as a plug-in hybrid?

No love for the Ford C-Max Energi & Fusion Energi?

 

[Vdubchaos]

One thing that ALL electric cars have in common:

Failure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle

:biggrin:

 

[Kaido]

The Volt is no longer for sale?

Why is only the Prius listed as a plug-in hybrid?

No love for the Ford C-Max Energi & Fusion Energi?

In process of updating :biggrin:

 

[yottabit]

My neighbor bought a Tesla S 2 weeks ago and while it is nice as sheetz and he loves it, he said he's only getting 130-150 miles out of it.

I assume he must have bought the 60 kW version, and not the 85 kW version

The 60 kW is EPA rated at 208 miles range, so I can see how if he was driving hard he could probably get down that low

The 85kW is EPA rated at 265 miles / Tesla rated at 300 mi Highway

 

[Kaido]

Updated the OP with more electric cars & plug-in cars. I'm only listing ones that are readily available in the US, not ones that are only available in other countries or only in California (like the RAV4 EV).

In other news:

1. 2014 Kia Soul EV:

Kia is expected to have an all-electric version of the Soul with a 120-mile range for $35k. I WOULD DEFINITELY BUY THIS!! My 2011 Kia Soul's lease is over this month and I would have to say it's been my favorite car ever. Love the design, love the handling, love the green color. This would be awesome because (1) it's a Kia Soul, (2) it has 120-mile range, and (3) it's $35k (unlike the Tesla S, which starts around $70k).

http://blogs.automotive.com/2014-ki...ld-all-electric-version-next-year-139291.html

2. Tesla News:

Petition to sell directly to consumers reaches the required 100,000 signatures link

Forecasted to reach 21,000 units units this year; hundreds of orders in Hong Kong, which will literally double the number of electric vehicles there link

Panasonic is expected to ship 100,000 automotive grade lithium-ion battery cells to Tesla by the end of the month link

Google Glass app lets Tesla owners check on cars from afar link

3. Chevy Volt:

Volt outsold the Prius PHEV in June, thanks to discounts & better electric range (38 miles in the Volt vs 11 in the Prius) link

Prius sales are also down from last year, which is weird because I see more Prii on the road than ever before. Rather, I pass more Prii on the road than ever before

 

[twinrider1]

1. 2014 Kia Soul EV:

Kia is expected to have an all-electric version of the Soul with a 120-mile range for $35k. ...

I like the Soul. A neighbor recently bought one and my ginormous rear end actually fits in it with relative comfort.
But how long will it take you to recoup the $15k premium over the ICE Soul?
And do you live where it snows? I'd love an EV but I want 120-mile at zero degrees guarantee before I buy.

 

[Kaido]

I like the Soul. A neighbor recently bought one and my ginormous rear end actually fits in it with relative comfort.
But how long will it take you to recoup the $15k premium over the ICE Soul?
And do you live where it snows? I'd love an EV but I want 120-mile at zero degrees guarantee before I buy.

I don't think EV's are very cost-effective at all right now. My buddy calculated out his cost on his $259/mo Honda Fit EV lease and it works out to a total wash vs. his (paid-off) ICE vehicles with gas & repairs, so it's more for the fun of it & the slight convenience of never having to stop at a gas station or really do any kind of maintenance. Plus you have to factor in the battery purchase down the road if you buy the EV (Tesla charges $12k for their 265-mile battery, with an 8-year warranty).

Yes, I live where it snows, and it sometimes snows heavily. Car & Driver said the electric Fit drops to 40 to 50 miles in cold weather. My typical commute is 20 to 30 miles, or a 40 to 60-mile round trip, so if that 120-mile range was cut in half, it'd definitely be tight if I couldn't charge up at work. That has been my hesitation with going with a Leaf or Fit EV, because I currently don't have a fast charger at work, and could maybe use a 3-prong 120V outlet. Right now, I'm driving a 14-year-old Ford Escort coupe with 150k miles on it, but I can fillup anywhere in 5 minutes tops and it gets me through the snow without issue because even though it's FWD, it's also stick-shift. A Tesla would be awesome, but the price is 2 to 3 times as much, and you're stuck with RWD, which is horrible in the snow. So no good EV options for me currently. The upcoming Tesla Model X is AWD, which will probably cost even more because it's larger than the S & has dual electric motors, so we'll see. I'd also kind of like to own a house someday

 

[twinrider1]

lol, I've been eying the Model X also. I don't have the $$ for it, but it's another step in the right direction.

 

[Kaido]

lol, I've been eying the Model X also. I don't have the $$ for it, but it's another step in the right direction.

My only real complaint about the X is the weird doors. Now don't get me wrong - I'm a huge Delorean fan, it's my #1 favorite car - but I can see a lot of women having issues with it because it's so "weird" (not being sexist here, just based off feedback of the girls I've talked to who have seen it & the fact that I wouldn't want something quite that big for my work commuter). I see a ton of soccer moms here in Connecticut driving Acura MDX's & BMW X5's, so showing up with Falcon doors in a premium vehicle might be too much out of the norm for a lot of people.

I am curious to see if the battery life is any better, like maybe if you get 325 miles EPA or something. My wife drives around a lot more than me because we have a toddler, so there are shopping trips for diapers, playdates, parks, doctor visits, etc. and an extended range would be ideal for that type of usage, especially in the event of an emergency. That's where something like the Chevy Volt would make a lot more sense - where you have a gasoline engine to fall back on if you NEED the range in an emergency or something.

 

[yottabit]

I am curious to see if the battery life is any better, like maybe if you get 325 miles EPA or something. My wife drives around a lot more than me because we have a toddler, so there are shopping trips for diapers, playdates, parks, doctor visits, etc. and an extended range would be ideal for that type of usage, especially in the event of an emergency. That's where something like the Chevy Volt would make a lot more sense - where you have a gasoline engine to fall back on if you NEED the range in an emergency or something.

I honestly am really scared to see the Model X range numbers. If you look at the Model X it's really quite squashed down and not very SUV like in appearance (compared to other crossovers even) so they are clearly trying to reduce the amount of frontal area, but it's still going to have way more frontal area than the Model S which I would expect to greatly reduce range, and the AWD model will have even further reduced range.

I don't know why all car companies love to talk only about CD, which is only one part of the drag equation, while frontal area has just as much of an effect and we never see those numbers published.

This all wouldn't be a problem if they compensated for it with a higher kWh battery, however the Model X is built to use the same battery system as the Model S. I'm holding out hope that they have some leftover room in that battery pack or the controller programming and are going to release a ~100+ kWh battery for the Model X to give it comparable range to the S, and then have that 100+ kWh battery trickle down as an option for the S.

I'm also not sure of the exact battery tech in the Tesla batteries, but I have a theory that they must have quite a bit more cells then their published kWh rating, and use the leftover cells for balancing the charging/uncharging of the batteries. This would seem to be the best way to ensure quick "topping off" doesn't reduce battery life as they could manage certain cells to be fully cycled by juggling which cells are being used. Similar to what is done in SSDs for wear reduction. We already know the technology is there because people who ordered the 40 kW Model S got a 60 kW version with the software tuned down to 40 kW.

So depending on how much "reserve" space may be in the battery, it's possible they could have a physically identical pack that can put out more kWh with a more aggressive "tune". Just like we've seen the amount of reserve space shrink on SSDs, if my theory is right and Tesla advances their controller technology then we could see more effective capacity out of all their batteries, without any real detriment to the life of the battery.

That's all my theorycrafting though!

 

[Kaido]

I honestly am really scared to see the Model X range numbers. If you look at the Model X it's really quite squashed down and not very SUV like in appearance (compared to other crossovers even) so they are clearly trying to reduce the amount of frontal area, but it's still going to have way more frontal area than the Model S which I would expect to greatly reduce range, and the AWD model will have even further reduced range.

Yeah, and the other slightly scary thing to me is that the AWD Model X is outfitted with dual motors...exactly how reliable is that? If one motor goes, do you die? Imagine having a motor synchronization issue at highway speeds, would your front or rear wheels just lock up?

The Model X is basically a Honda Crosstour with batteries on the bottom:

http://www.teslamotors.com/tesla_theme/images/modelx/360_frames/00.jpg

http://www.autoweek.com/galleryimage/CW/20120403/NEWYORK/403009981/PH/1/2/crosstour-side.jpg

 

[Kaido]

I honestly am really scared to see the Model X range numbers. If you look at the Model X it's really quite squashed down and not very SUV like in appearance (compared to other crossovers even) so they are clearly trying to reduce the amount of frontal area, but it's still going to have way more frontal area than the Model S which I would expect to greatly reduce range, and the AWD model will have even further reduced range.

From their website:

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

* Model X will be offered with a 60 or 85 kWh battery.
* Model X will be offered with the following drivetrain configurations:

-Model X with Rear Wheel Drive
-Model X with Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive
-Model X Performance with Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive

So - larger, heavier car with the same batteries and optional dual-motors for AWD. Yeah, battery life is going to take a hit. However, can you imagine buying a car that is more expensive than a Tesla S, but gets less range? I'd predict below 200 miles EPA on the 60kWH model, and probably well under that on the AWD 60kWH model (maybe a 160-mile range? who knows!). That'd be horrible! I hope they do some crazy efficiency stuff, or release better batteries in the meantime!

 

[twinrider1]

My only real complaint about the X is the weird doors. ...

I like the idea, but this thread has me thinking more about them and now I'm not so sure. Let's say there is 3"+ of snow on your roof and you open the doors; some of that is bound to fall inside the car.
Also, they're selling it as being useful in narrow spaces. But the front doors are conventional, so they'll need their space. Granted, you can slip in the front more easily than climbing in a third seat, but still makes it more of a novelty for me.

 

[Kaido]

I like the idea, but this thread has me thinking more about them and now I'm not so sure. Let's say there is 3"+ of snow on your roof and you open the doors; some of that is bound to fall inside the car.
Also, they're selling it as being useful in narrow spaces. But the front doors are conventional, so they'll need their space. Granted, you can slip in the front more easily than climbing in a third seat, but still makes it more of a novelty for me.

I think it'd be great for getting kids in & out of. That's my wife's main complaint with our 2013 Civic - trying to put a wiggly 2-year-old into the backseat of compact car is not the easiest thing to do, especially when it's a hot day and everything is toasty to the touch.

Personally I love gullwing doors; I've wanted a Delorean since I was a kid, but have held off due to the safety issues (and, you know, not having $60k lying around to blow on a new-build model, haha). Plus it would definitely be an attention-getter, so you'd have to be explaining what the car is all about every time you went out in public - which could be a good or bad thing depending on your personality. I mean, a Tesla S in gray is almost just another boring sedan on the road:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8456/7897439868_b08f49b8db_k.jpg

I think a Chevy Volt would be a lot more practical, too - I could see myself driving a Model S to work because the 200-mile range would easily fit within my commute, but if my wife had to go somewhere in an emergency with the kiddo after a day of driving around already, that'd stink, especially if the Model X has a lower range to begin with due to using the same batteries.

 

[JCH13]

I can't wait for a truly inexpensive EV solution. For a sufficiently low price I would buy one with a 30-40 mile range, or maybe less, as my commute is <1mi.

Using their limited range as an argument against EVs is silly IMO. There are plenty of people who could use a 40mi range EV every day and be fine. No, it's not the right solution for everyone, but if some small percentage of cars (5%? 10%?) were EVs I think gas prices would drop considerably for those that still need an ICE.

 

[Kaido]

I can't wait for a truly inexpensive EV solution. For a sufficiently low price I would buy one with a 30-40 mile range, or maybe less, as my commute is <1mi.

Using their limited range as an argument against EVs is silly IMO. There are plenty of people who could use a 40mi range EV every day and be fine. No, it's not the right solution for everyone, but if some small percentage of cars (5%? 10%?) were EVs I think gas prices would drop considerably for those that still need an ICE.

Yeah. The Smartcar EV might be your ticket - $25k before tax rebates. If you can snag the $7500 Federal rebate, you'd be looking at $17.5k. Range is 76 city, 59 highway, and 68 combined, so if you just need a small city car, this is a pretty good deal, and even if the battery range cut in half in the winter, you'd still be looking at 29 usable miles for cold-weather commuting at minimum, fully-charged.

I've seen various figures, but it seems that around 32 miles a day is the average American's daily commute (round-trip), so that could work for a lot of people, assuming either you live in a warm state or have access to a charger (even a 120V outlet) at work. If the Kia Soul EV really pans out and offers a 120-mile range, that'd be super awesome because that'd put it in within usable range for my daily commute to work without having much range anxiety.