The official Electric Car discussion thread

[Eug]

Our dept bought a Kodak digicam in the 90s for $15000. 1.5 Megapixel.

Ahhh the memories.

BTW, I've used 3 out of 10 bars of my first tank of gas so far on my Plug-in Prius, after over two weeks and several hundred km. I'm liking this. My commute is 16 km and I can charge my car both at home and at work, so that works out well for this car. Best of both worlds for me as there is no range anxiety at all for the occasional times I'm driving more than my commute.

 

[bigi]

^+1 Brovane - Excellent post.

 

[skyking]

^+1 Brovane - Excellent post.

Agreed.
Basically it boils down to this:
Those in management owe fealty to their king, the stockholder. The king has no vision and you can't sell him on long term.
The only way to get anywhere is with new companies that have that innovation built in from the get go.

 

[Vdubchaos]

For the major automobile manufacturers they are afraid of upending the traditional auto technologies because it will affect their profit, now. Well now Tesla is pushing these companies to innovate and really show what a good electric car could be. History is full of large corporations that failed to capitalize on profitable innovations.

History is also full of electric car companies failing....100+ years ago!

At the end of the day, there is no MAGIC solution when it comes to energy.

And even if electric was to succeed, it's still has HUGE effects on environment.

So in the end, we solve NOTHING.

Ending consumption/consumerism is the only way we can even put a dent on "pollution".

Don't forget who is the biggest polluter on the planet......cargo ships. Just 9 ships is equivalent to all of WORLDS cars.

Think about that next time you buy something from China.......

 

[JCH13]

History is also full of electric car companies failing....100+ years ago!

At the end of the day, there is no MAGIC solution when it comes to energy.

And even if electric was to succeed, it's still has HUGE effects on environment.

So in the end, we solve NOTHING.

Ending consumption/consumerism is the only way we can even put a dent on "pollution".

Don't forget who is the biggest polluter on the planet......cargo ships. Just 9 ships is equivalent to all of WORLDS cars.

Think about that next time you buy something from China.......

 

[Brovane]

Agreed.
Basically it boils down to this:
Those in management owe fealty to their king, the stockholder. The king has no vision and you can't sell him on long term.
The only way to get anywhere is with new companies that have that innovation built in from the get go.

Sometimes large companies also have to come close to failure before they realize something is wrong and then turn around and start innovating. This brings me to mind both Apple and GM, both companies came close to failure (GM needed a govt bailout) before they turned things around and started innovating. When Tesla introduced the Roadster this really made GM start paying attention. It came down to, if some guys from California can build a 200+ mile range EV, GM should be able to do the same thing.

 

[Brovane]

History is also full of electric car companies failing....100+ years ago!

At the end of the day, there is no MAGIC solution when it comes to energy.

And even if electric was to succeed, it's still has HUGE effects on environment.

So in the end, we solve NOTHING.

Ending consumption/consumerism is the only way we can even put a dent on "pollution".

Don't forget who is the biggest polluter on the planet......cargo ships. Just 9 ships is equivalent to all of WORLDS cars.

Think about that next time you buy something from China.......

So you are recommending nuclear powered cargo ships?

 

[BoberFett]

Historically major corporations have tendencies in instances to make bad long term decisions for short term gains. A prime example would be Kodak, the invented the first digital camera in 1975. What did they do with it? Absolutely nothing. Why because Kodak was so focused on film they didn't want to impact their film business. They could have dominated the digital camera market but instead they were so afraid to hurt their film business that they stopped progress. Now Kodak has gone bankrupt because they became afraid to innovate.

Apples and oranges. Kodak missed the boat and failed spectacularly, but other camera manufacturers jumped on it.

In the case of EVs, none of the many major makes are jumping into EVs. GM realized the EV1 wasn't realistic due to existing battery tech, despite the idiot conspiracy theories to the contrary. They're just now dipping a toe with electric hybrids. Some other makes like Nissan are toying with EV. If EV was ready for primetime you'd see half or more of the major makes going wild with EV, but they're not. Even if one of them sat out (a la Kodak) the others aren't going to wait if they see profit in it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the EV concept. And we're getting closer to the tipping point of where they'll actually be a feasible mainstream option. But there's a ways to go yet.

 

[Brovane]

Apples and oranges. Kodak missed the boat and failed spectacularly, but other camera manufacturers jumped on it.

In the case of EVs, none of the many major makes are jumping into EVs. GM realized the EV1 wasn't realistic due to existing battery tech, despite the idiot conspiracy theories to the contrary. They're just now dipping a toe with electric hybrids. Some other makes like Nissan are toying with EV. If EV was ready for primetime you'd see half or more of the major makes going wild with EV, but they're not. Even if one of them sat out (a la Kodak) the others aren't going to wait if they see profit in it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the EV concept. And we're getting closer to the tipping point of where they'll actually be a feasible mainstream option. But there's a ways to go yet.

You miss the point. Did the other camera manufacturer's have a majority of their business wrapped up in producing film? No, but Kodak had a huge film line and it was a huge revenue stream. They were afraid of disrupting this revenue stream and stopped innovation that would disrupt this. The current big auto manufacturers were afraid of disrupting their current revenue streams of selling vehicles using internal combustion engines. It was only when seriously threatened by govt action and a new manufacturer that we have seen the ground shifting in the EV world.

 

[bamx2]

Looks like the $5,000 GA state income tax credit for EV s is about to disappear - http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/georgia/transportation-funding-bill-narrowly-passes-georgi/nkbqM/

BTW- Local ATL Nissan dealers have been leasing the Leaf for around $200/mo on a 24 month lease . The tax credits make (made ) it an exceptional deal. I see a lot of them around town even in suburbia. I personally couldn't take advantage of it because of the range limitations and concerns about cosmetic damage to a leased car (happens where I need to go ).

 

[Vdubchaos]

So you are recommending nuclear powered cargo ships?

I'm recommending stopping consumption and unsustainable market model...

 

[Vdubchaos]

Looks like the $5,000 GA state income tax credit for EV s is about to disappear - http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/georgia/transportation-funding-bill-narrowly-passes-georgi/nkbqM/

BTW- Local ATL Nissan dealers have been leasing the Leaf for around $200/mo . The tax credits make (made ) it an exceptional deal. I personally couldn't take advantage of it because of the range limitations and concerns about cosmetic damage a leased car (happens where I need to go ).

How in the world did they even sell one is beyond me.

This car has 45k BTU of power, gallon of has has 115k BTUS, so you are buying a car that has enough power to go 20-40 mile.

Better do some planning and PREY you don't hit traffic or it's cold.

 

[skyking]

Where did you come up with that number? Here's a site that has thousands of reports from EV owners.
http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/

 

[Eug]

You miss the point. Did the other camera manufacturer's have a majority of their business wrapped up in producing film? No, but Kodak had a huge film line and it was a huge revenue stream. They were afraid of disrupting this revenue stream and stopped innovation that would disrupt this. The current big auto manufacturers were afraid of disrupting their current revenue streams of selling vehicles using internal combustion engines. It was only when seriously threatened by govt action and a new manufacturer that we have seen the ground shifting in the EV world.

Actually, Kodak had some of the most advanced digital cameras available to the public in existence at the time. Hence my comment about the $15000 digicam our dept. bought. It was the newer little brother to a $30000 cam they also sold. They pounced on digital when traditional camera makers were dragging their heels. In fact, the way Kodak did this was to modify Nikon and Canon SLRs because Nikon and Canon weren't doing this themselves much, and Kodak wasn't a camera manufacturer.

The problem here is that Kodak aimed itself only at pros, pushing a digital workflow solution, but arguably the true revolution came in the consumer space. Kodak couldn't compete with the camera manufacturers who were already experienced at building consumer cameras.

Kodak was a digital pioneer, but ultimately chose the wrong digital path, and also failed to execute on several fronts.

Just because you're there amongst the first doesn't mean you will dominate, or even survive. You have to do it right.

I guess you were not aware of Kodak's foray into digital, but we had those digital cameras available to end users way back in the early 90s.

 

[Brovane]

Actually, Kodak had some of the most advanced digital cameras available to the public in existence at the time. Hence my comment about the $15000 digicam our dept. bought. It was the newer little brother to a $30000 cam they also sold. They pounced on digital when traditional camera makers were dragging their heels. In fact, the way Kodak did this was to modify Nikon and Canon SLRs because Nikon and Canon weren't doing this themselves much, and Kodak wasn't a camera manufacturer.

The problem here is that Kodak aimed itself only at pros, pushing a digital workflow solution, but arguably the true revolution came in the consumer space. Kodak couldn't compete with the camera manufacturers who were already experienced at building consumer cameras.

Kodak was a digital pioneer, but ultimately chose the wrong digital path, and also failed to execute on several fronts.

Just because you're there amongst the first doesn't mean you will dominate, or even survive. You have to do it right.

I guess you were not aware of Kodak's foray into digital, but we had those digital cameras available to end users way back in the early 90s.

I am going back earlier than that. Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975 but sat on it for years and did nothing with it. The main point is that Kodak was afraid of disrupting it's revenue stream from film so it was slow to innovate with the new technology. As you pointed out they also then in the 90's aimed at Pro's because they still wanted consumers spending money on film.

 

[Brovane]

I'm recommending stopping consumption and unsustainable market model...

How are you defining market model?

 

[Brovane]

How in the world did they even sell one is beyond me.

This car has 45k BTU of power, gallon of has has 115k BTUS, so you are buying a car that has enough power to go 20-40 mile.

Better do some planning and PREY you don't hit traffic or it's cold.

You do realize that electric motors are much more efficient than internal combustion engines used in vehicles right?

 

[Eug]

I am going back earlier than that. Kodak invented the first digital camera in 1975 but sat on it for years and did nothing with it. The main point is that Kodak was afraid of disrupting it's revenue stream from film so it was slow to innovate with the new technology. As you pointed out they also then in the 90's aimed at Pro's because they still wanted consumers spending money on film.

That's a common myth. Kodak didn't just sit on it for years. They actively developed it in their labs. The fact of the matter is that back in 1975, the technology was totally useless for real world applications. The first 1975 camera was 100x100 pixels. As in 0.01 Megapixels.

Fast forward well under 2 decades and they had a half-decent sensor that could actually be useful and they immediately put it on the market. However, it was extremely expensive, and had limited usefulness since film still had much, much more range and resolution, so they aimed it at specific pro workflows.

The issue here isn't holding back technology, but not seeing the big picture, and not correctly predicting the future of the market. Just like GM.

 

[Vdubchaos]

You do realize that electric motors are much more efficient than internal combustion engines used in vehicles right?

Define MUCH

They are a little bit more efficient. It also depends on how much you push the car and temperature.

If you floor BOTH and drive in cold weather, electric is actually not as efficient.

 

[Eug]

 

[Brovane]

Define MUCH

They are a little bit more efficient. It also depends on how much you push the car and temperature.

If you floor BOTH and drive in cold weather, electric is actually not as efficient.

A EV converts about 60% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. A conventional gasoline vehicle converts about 20% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at wheels. I would define over a 100% increase as "much".

Have you figured out how you are defining "Market Model"?

 

[tweakmonkey]

My friends have a Fiat 500e and don't get this.

I tell them when it's cold wear a sweater. Don't run the climate control. Granted this is CA.

Also they never use the heated seats and I think they're probably a lot more useful for heating up a body and extending range vs the climate control which is blowing heat everywhere. I love my heated seats

 

[natto fire]

A EV converts about 60% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. A conventional gasoline vehicle converts about 20% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at wheels. I would define over a 100% increase as "much".

Have you figured out how you are defining "Market Model"?

To say nothing of the potential for regenerative braking. The main thing ICEs have going for them is that gasoline and other petro fuels are so energy dense that there is plenty of energy to waste and still have acceptable range.

Other than that, it is physics 101 that the more simple propulsion system with fewer moving parts is going to be more efficient.

Electrons are easier to generate and transport; it is just the storage part that is holding them back.

 

[Brovane]

That's a common myth. Kodak didn't just sit on it for years. They actively developed it in their labs. The fact of the matter is that back in 1975, the technology was totally useless for real world applications. The first 1975 camera was 100x100 pixels. As in 0.01 Megapixels.

Fast forward well under 2 decades and they had a half-decent sensor that could actually be useful and they immediately put it on the market. However, it was extremely expensive, and had limited usefulness since film still had much, much more range and resolution, so they aimed it at specific pro workflows.

The issue here isn't holding back technology, but not seeing the big picture, and not correctly predicting the future of the market. Just like GM.

I will take your word on it. I don't know enough about the technology parameters to argue one way or another. :thumbsup:

 

[JCH13]

Vdubchaos - you to cite some sources for the inane claims you're making. Nothing you're saying is ringing true.