The Official Kaveri Review Thread (A10-7850K, etc)

[ShintaiDK]

The multitasking shouldn't be a problem yet - due to the amount of available HSA apps.

The amount is zero, nill, nada, nothing. So yes, no problem yet. How long was it now since HSA was announced? And supposed to be the saviour of everything?

The minority in dGPU market is of other dimension than in iGPU market. And since Mantle also helps Intel CPUs with AMD dGPUs, the market for Mantle currently is 1/3 of the whole dGPU market. The API is another step of vendor specific game optimizations (not driver, but by direct game studio support), which already can make a difference of 10-20%.

And how similar are Mantle concepts to low level console APIs, allowing to use similar engine architectures?

Give me a break, "similar" is such a vague term. And its been overly abused to spin mantle.

Kaveri is already outdated before you can even count a handful of games that may be using Mantle. If they dont drop support before that is. The last excuse was AMD waited for Kaveri to be launched. That didnt hold water either. No game company will by free will code for it without sponsoring incentive. Mantle beta driver is also Q1 now, and you cant sell OEM systems with beta drivers either. And it seems to be nothing more than the regular hypes. Phenom 50% faster than Core. BD uarch will kill Intel, IPC increase and what not.

AMD is in a position now where their top bin new CPU gets beaten by 25-50% in average in games by CPUs below half the price. Not to mention stagnant performance with previous models at a cheaper price aswell.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Since when does a ~35% dGPU marketshare company prevent developers from optimizing their engine for the other ~65%?

You forget all the IGPs. Game companies dont develop exclusively for dGPUs. Or are you saying IGPs are...irrelevant?

 

[Lonbjerg]

You forget all the IGPs. Game companies dont develop exclusively for dGPUs. Or are you saying IGPs are...irrelevant?

Only the Intel ones I guess

 

[Erenhardt]

Kaveri is already outdated before you can even count a handful of games that may be using Mantle.

The amount is zero, nill, nada, nothing. So yes, no problem yet. How long was it now since HSA was announced? And supposed to be the saviour of everything?

How can you say those two things in on post. You can't say something is so new that there is no software for it yet, and few lines below say it's outdated after it gets support in month or two.
After that, it is no reason to point other wrongs in your post...

 

[ShintaiDK]

How can you say those two things in on post. You can't say something is so new that there is no software for it yet, and few lines below say it's outdated after it gets support in month or two.
After that, it is no reason to point other wrongs in your post...

In a month or 2 we might get a beta driver for 1-2 games. I dont know if you can see the issue. But 1-2 games is completely irrelevant for the success of a CPU that is to run everything. And at what performance benefit? Kaveri was to have 30% higher IPC. That one was missed by a long shot to say it mildly. It was also supposed to run at 4Ghz CPU and 900Mhz GPU. That never materialzed either.

 

[NTMBK]

If we look at the Xbox. Then hUMA is not supported for the same reason.

The XBox One does not have an eSRAM cache. The eSRAM is an explicitly controlled separate memory buffer- which is an entirely different thing, and does indeed break HSA models. But a large, shared, last level cache, similar to Haswell's L4 (I guess it would be L3 if attached to an AMD APU) would not break HSA. 32-64 MB would be a great help for APUs, I suspect.

 

[NTMBK]

Only the Intel ones I guess

Yes, the most widely used and fastest improving GPU out there is totally irrelevant.

 

[NTMBK]

No game company will by free will code for it without sponsoring incentive.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's basically no incentive for them to squeeze an extra 30% out of Hawaii and Tahiti, sure- but what about the bottom end? If Mantle lets them reduce the minimum specs, then potentially their games could be playable on Jaguar craptops which never had a chance before... and that means more potential sales. A lot more, if Jaguar laptops are as popular in the developing world as Bobcat was.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's basically no incentive for them to squeeze an extra 30% out of Hawaii and Tahiti, sure- but what about the bottom end? If Mantle lets them reduce the minimum specs, then potentially their games could be playable on Jaguar craptops which never had a chance before... and that means more potential sales. A lot more, if Jaguar laptops are as popular in the developing world as Bobcat was.

The question is if those people are willing to fork out 30-50$ for a game. And if the amount counter the extra development cost, bugs and QA. And remember the lackbuster GPU and CPU performance on them. 128SPs, mainly dualcores in the 1Ghz area, singlechannel, 3-400Mhz GPU.

And they are anything but cheap:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?tag=anan06-20

But again, they are not selling more Kaveris due to that. Its another R&D drain that affects other parts of the company negatively.

 

[NTMBK]

The question is if those people are willing to fork out 30-50$ for a game. And if the amount counter the extra development cost, bugs and QA. And remember the lackbuster GPU and CPU performance on them. 128SPs, mainly dualcores in the 1Ghz area, singlechannel, 3-400Mhz GPU.

Oh, I doubt that they would pick up expensive AAA titles at launch, but in this age of digital distribution and enormous firesales the long tail is awfully long. I only picked up Battlefield 3 because it was part of a Humble Bundle, for instance.

And yes, the performance wasn't great on the budget parts, and that's exactly why the reduced CPU load from Mantle is required.

It's just a bit of speculation from me, but that's the only reason I can see for EA pursuing AMD so enthusiastically for this. (And yes, DICE did pursue AMD initially, so don't just say that they were only interested because AMD were bribing them. ) They wanted a "console style" thin API- because the "console style" lets them squeeze acceptable performance out of crappy old hardware. Lower requirements = higher sales. *shrug* As I say, it's just a theory.

Anyway, I'm going rather off-topic here!

 

[Lonbjerg]

Yes, the most widely used and fastest improving GPU out there is totally irrelevant.

I consider all IGP's to be like "Migdet MMA"..funny...but useless.
And don't call an IGP for a GPU...that is dishonest.

 

[Erenhardt]

Kaveri was to have 30% higher IPC. That one was missed by a long shot to say it mildly. It was also supposed to run at 4Ghz CPU and 900Mhz GPU. That never materialzed either.

Whooohoo, someone had a high hopes. Does "was to have" translate into "I wish it had"? My english is really bad..

 

[ShintaiDK]

Oh, I doubt that they would pick up expensive AAA titles at launch, but in this age of digital distribution and enormous firesales the long tail is awfully long. I only picked up Battlefield 3 because it was part of a Humble Bundle, for instance.

And yes, the performance wasn't great on the budget parts, and that's exactly why the reduced CPU load from Mantle is required.

Its here the chain breaks again. Because in your case, AMD is not selling more APUs due to that. Its simply projected as a "maybe, but unlikely" case for a future potential buy of a game. And again, for a minority player. kaveri have to stand on its own legs to sell. And thats where the big issue is with stagnant performance and a too high price, specially after the drastic price increase.

 

[NTMBK]

I consider all IGP's to be like "Migdet MMA"..funny...but useless.
And don't call an IGP for a GPU...that is dishonest.

You know what IGP actually stands for, right? "Integrated Graphics Processor"? That certainly falls under the category of "Graphics Processing Unit", or GPU. Especially since the top IGPs now outclass any discrete GPU below a HD7750, which is a large part of the GPU market.

Nobody is going to force you to trade in your Titan for an Iris Pro, so why the hostility? Integrated GPUs serve a portion of the market very well. You are not in that portion of the market. Same way that I am not in the market for $1000 GPUs. Live and let live, man. :thumbsup:

 

[NTMBK]

Its here the chain breaks again. Because in your case, AMD is not selling more APUs due to that.

I'm not so certain. If they can run a store demo of a budget laptop (Kabini, or probably Beema by the time EA fix all their damn bugs in Battlefield 4 D: ) running Battlefield 4, even at Low graphics settings and 720p, then that's going to weigh into a potential buyer's decision.

 

[Homeles]

Nobody is going to force you to trade in your Titan for an Iris Pro, so why the hostility?

Because he doesn't understand that IGPs subsidize the cost of his high end GPUs.

 

[Dresdenboy]

The amount is zero, nill, nada, nothing. So yes, no problem yet. How long was it now since HSA was announced? And supposed to be the saviour of everything?

The zero availability of HSA apps is my point regarding the urgent need of Carizzo's features. I didn't discuss announcements or saviours.

Give me a break, "similar" is such a vague term. And its been overly abused to spin mantle.

If you look at this in such a way, you might consider PR activities of other companies as well. But I used it in a technical context, where a DirectX-free low level API is more likely similar to Mantle than to ... well... DirectX.

Kaveri is already outdated before you can even count a handful of games that may be using Mantle. If they dont drop support before that is. The last excuse was AMD waited for Kaveri to be launched. That didnt hold water either. No game company will by free will code for it without sponsoring incentive. Mantle beta driver is also Q1 now, and you cant sell OEM systems with beta drivers either. And it seems to be nothing more than the regular hypes. Phenom 50% faster than Core. BD uarch will kill Intel, IPC increase and what not.

AMD is in a position now where their top bin new CPU gets beaten by 25-50% in average in games by CPUs below half the price. Not to mention stagnant performance with previous models at a cheaper price aswell.

What exactly did you try to tell us here? I know many people with a similar text:content ratio.

 

[Dresdenboy]

You forget all the IGPs. Game companies dont develop exclusively for dGPUs. Or are you saying IGPs are...irrelevant?

I talked about dGPUs because there the CPU/driver/API bottleneck has a greater negative effect than on iGPUs.

Of course if the iGPU is paired with slow CPU cores, the bottleneck is back. But this shouldn't be the case with Intel iGPUs. And the ones, where CPUs might limit, are low volume and likely less relevant for gamers.

 

[Slomo4shO]

And don't call an IGP for a GPU...that is dishonest.

An IGP is a GPU. Seems you are the only one being dishonest. Either that or you are just displaying your ignorance on the subject :whiste:

 

[Lonbjerg]

An IGP is a GPU. Seems you are the only one being dishonest. Either that or you are just displaying your ignorance on the subject :whiste:

It's not a GPU, cot down busses, but down speeds, cut down performance...the same was a laptop is not desktop.

Nice fail ^^


Trolling is not allowed here
Markfw900
Anandtech Moderator

 

[SPBHM]

It's not a GPU, cot down busses, but down speeds, cut down performance...the same was a laptop is not desktop.

Nice fail ^^

it still is a "GPU", just sharing memory and silicon with other things, and some IGPs are faster than some discrete GPUs
people have been playing D3D/OGL games on IGPs since the late 90s successfully, and now more than ever, with laptops being so relevant IGPs are a big deal for gaming.

 

[NTMBK]

It's not a GPU, cot down busses, but down speeds, cut down performance...the same was a laptop is not desktop.

Nice fail ^^

It's a GPU. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_processing_unit#GPU_forms

 

[Lonbjerg]

it still is a "GPU", just sharing memory and silicon with other things, and some IGPs are faster than some discrete GPUs
people have been playing D3D/OGL games on IGPs since the late 90s successfully, and now more than ever, with laptops being so relevant IGPs are a big deal for gaming.

You say relevant, I say a joke with subpar settings...I now IGP's are the new hype for some posters, because AMD PR want's it to be...dosn't change a thing.

My next CPU will have no IGP either...it will have maxium diespace for CPU...and my GPU will have max diespace for GPU.

Why wast good CPU diespace on a IGP...only reason: You are failing in CPU performance and have dropped out of the mobilespace.

Sound like AMD right?

 

[NTMBK]

You say relevant, I say a joke with subpar settings...I now IGP's are the new hype for some posters, because AMD PR want's it to be...dosn't change a thing.

My next CPU will have no IGP either...it will have maxium diespace for CPU...and my GPU will have max diespace for GPU.

Why wast good CPU diespace on a IGP...only reason: You are failing in CPU performance and have dropped out of the mobilespace.

Sound like AMD right?

Intel are putting an increasing amount of diespace towards GPU with every generation... Their only parts with no GPU are the server and workstation parts. Their entire consumer line has integrated GPUs.

 

[mrmt]

Why wast good CPU diespace on a IGP...only reason: You are failing in CPU performance and have dropped out of the mobilespace.

No, you do that because you want a lower cost solution. Because soon don't want to waste time and money with PCIe bus, slots, and all that jazz.