The Official Kaveri Review Thread (A10-7850K, etc)

[JDG1980]

Its obvious that their big core line is completely dead. And the cats family already seems to be in trouble.

I see no evidence that the cat cores are "in trouble". They are reasonably competitive with Intel's Atom line. And they already have two major design wins (the consoles). If anything, it's likely that the cat cores represent AMD's x86 future - just as the Pentium-M line did for Intel during the dark days of Netburst.

But at that time the dGPU is close to, if not already gone.

This is a pipe dream. Never gonna happen. There is really no such thing as "good enough" when it comes to GPU power - no matter how powerful iGPUs get, a discrete chip on the same process node will always be better. And with GPGPU computing taking off, it's not just gamers who need good GPUs, but professional users as well. It's these pro-grade GPUs that really pay the bills for R&D, and will continue to do so.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I see no evidence that the cat cores are "in trouble". They are reasonably competitive with Intel's Atom line. And they already have two major design wins (the consoles). If anything, it's likely that the cat cores represent AMD's x86 future - just as the Pentium-M line did for Intel during the dark days of Netburst.



This is a pipe dream. Never gonna happen. There is really no such thing as "good enough" when it comes to GPU power - no matter how powerful iGPUs get, a discrete chip on the same process node will always be better. And with GPGPU computing taking off, it's not just gamers who need good GPUs, but professional users as well. It's these pro-grade GPUs that really pay the bills for R&D, and will continue to do so.

The cat cores is suffering the same issues as the big cores with a node process far behind and lack of performance scaling. And the obvious R&D issue. Consoles doesnt matter. Because their return is over 7-10 years. While the R&D needed to be payed yesterday rather than now for future products.

For the dGPU its all about economics. Not about anything else. Sooner or later the dGPU dies because its not economicly viable to continue it. The prograde GPUs cant pay the ever increasing R&D bill on a continual shrinking revenue. In the HPC market the Xeon Phi is already causing devastation to specially nVidias revenue. Even nVidia knows the dGPU is dead. And their strategies for moving into new markets shows it.

I'm giving you guys a lot of leeway. But if you want to have an in-depth discussion about dGPUs it needs to be in a new thread, and in Video Cards & Graphics at that
-ViRGE

 

[NTMBK]

This is a pipe dream. Never gonna happen. There is really no such thing as "good enough" when it comes to GPU power - no matter how powerful iGPUs get, a discrete chip on the same process node will always be better.

Not really. There are excellent technical reasons why combining the CPU and GPU into a single processor can result in higher performance- lower latency when passing tasks between the two, allowing for more fine grained parallelism; shared TDP budget, which can dynamically balance CPU and GPU clocks dependent on the current task being run; shared memory pool which eliminates unnecessary data copying, reducing both latency and total required memory. There's a reason why both of the consoles went with an APU.

If you gave the same die size and TDP budgets to an APU and to a CPU+dGPU, the APU would come out with higher performance.

EDIT: Oops, talk about bad timing. Sorry Virge, I'll drop it.

 

[DaZeeMan]

Dunno if the PC World article has been linked in this thread yet. It's not a review, but it does disclose that AMD is suggesting about a $119 Retail for the A8-7600's, and that the 7600's should ship sometime this quarter...

The most amusing comment is towards the end of the article...

AMD even suggested that Kaveri could pay for itself: in mining Lottocoins, an alternative form of currency, AMD projected that it would earn $704 per year—disregarding the cost of the power to run it, of course.

I seriously doubt that people are going to buy this APU to mine coins... dGPU's are so much better suited for that!

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2087...apps-partners-for-even-more-improvements.html

 

[Arkaign]

Yeah so much drama.

I think everything boils down to these fundamental truths :

(1)- It is the best balance of it's type for a single AIO for general use + gaming in SFF.

(2)- If someone needs more CPU power but is not a gamer, this is not for them.

(3)- If someone is a gamer and CAN use a dGPU, this is not for them.

(4)- The price needs to come down for this to make sense on a $ for result basis.

That said, the hypothetical person from #1 does exist. It's the guy who is building an ITX or mATX in a super slim case that they're sticking next to their TV. They will combo it with fast memory, and they know how to massage the settings to get adequate performance in the games they want to play. I'd imagine that at 1280x720 with mostly high settings should look pretty nice (better than 1080 with heavily chopped settings honestly) on a ~55" Plasma from the couch. When I first started converting an HTPC into a gaming use system for my lady at her request, I had a spare GTS450 that I tossed in there, and with the PhII X4 it ran pretty good for what she played.

It does seem that there's not much to argue about here. With all due respect, dGPU *IS* the elephant in the room with regards to the typical person in this forum. For the primary reason that competing AMD discrete combos like the 760k+7790 are so much better at gaming purposes that it's ludicrous. So that is a simple truth that isn't really arguable. And at the same time, if someone absolutely needs the best combo of a CPU+GPU in single package, this is the best we have at this time on PC.

If only they'd give us the console APUs in desktop form, it would be a killer deal.

 

[blackened23]

Did anyone figure out why the 7850K costs 190$? For that price it's a complete ripoff compared to the 6800k at 140$. I agree with the above post, but even for someone who wants an APU....190$ is nuts. I don't get it. And then you can compare that 190$ price tag to an i3 with a low end dGPU (nvidia GT640 perhaps or GTX 650) and that would still be in the same ballpark in terms of cost.

Now the 7600 looks like a good chip at 119$. IMO that chip is the winner over the 7850k which is a complete ripoff. That's the good buy with Kaveri for the SFF/HTPC market. But it isn't available yet from what i've read.

 

[Madpacket]

The dark horse here is the Steam Box / HTPC, the timing may be right for Kaveri where Richland didn't have a chance. I could see myself building a new Kaveri box to play my vast library of steam games. 720P gaming is fine as a HTCP as this new APU should be able to hang out with the new consoles which are still primarily 720P systems.

I am disappointed with the power consumption but it's somewhat expected given the foundry involved. I wonder how well these chips undervolt compared to my A10-6700 where I can get the total power consumption under 90W under load.

 

[9enesis]

Did anyone figure out why the 7850K costs 190$? For that price it's a complete ripoff.

FFS! anyone forcing you to buy one? or what?

I don't get it.

that is obvious.:biggrin:

And then you can compare that 190$ price tag to an i3 with a low end dGPU (nvidia GT640 perhaps or GTX 650) and that would still be in the same ballpark in terms of cost..

so what? what if one wants SOC ? m?

 

[AtenRa]

I have taken the liberty and used Anandtech graphs from the Kaveri Review to illustrate what AMD have accomplished within a single APU Generation. If it was Intel doing the same thing, everyone would have talking about a miracle. But because AMD did it, it must Suck and Fail.

This is the 45W TDP A8-7600 at $119 vs A10-5800K 100W TDP at $130 and vs Core i3 4330 55W TDP at $140. Just a reminder that Core i3 4130 is at $130 and it is slower than the 4330 both in CPU and iGPU.

CPU Performance.

Kaveri A8-7600 45W TDP is almost as fast as 100W TDP A10-5800K. At a lower price point and TDP class than Intel Haswell Core i3, even the most diehard Intel fans should acknowledge the fact that this is an amazing performance from that low TDP APU.
Competing against the more expensive Intel Haswell Core i3 4330 in CPU intensive applications, that Haswell has an advantage, the 45W TDP Kaveri is most of the times very close.

 

[AtenRa]

Gaming and Compute

And now lets see what that 45W TDP APU can do in gaming.

This is a 45W TDP APU against last years A10-5800K HighEnd 100W TDP APU. That is amazing performance for that low TDP.

And now Compute

The 45W TDP A8-7600 completely destroys the 100W TDP A10-5800K. Look how it is faster than Haswell even in Luxmark. This is what the future will bring. HSA and OpenCL is what Fusion was all about.

To sum up, A10-7850K is not what people were expecting to be. But AMD made a new 90 degree turn and they are now focusing more in LOW POWER than ever before, much like Intel have already has. GloFo 28nm and Kaveri was made for Low Power and most probable for Mobile(Laptops) APUs, not for the HighEnd Desktop.

This is what people were asking, low power. This is what OEMs were asking all this time, so AMD started to deliver. Now lets see how it will do in Laptops.

 

[DaZeeMan]

On the HTPC thing, I saw this mentioned in an article posted on Techradar. They were interviewing Adam Kozak of AMD -

As Kozak recalled, the AMD team was showing off Kaveri's ability to frame rate convert Blu-rays.
"Some TVs run [Blu-rays] at 24 frames, but your monitors definitely run at 60 frames," he explained. "If you ever watch a Blu-ray on your monitor, what it has to do is copy all those extra frames to duplicate them from 24 so it equals 60. A lot of frames are repeated. When you're watching something go across, it actually stutters because it's the same frame being shown several times.
"What we do now with Kaveri is we actually interpolate. We use compute to say, 'Here's the next frame, let's figure out that maybe the difference is ...' and we create a new frame. And it's much smoother when it goes across. We can use Kaveri to all this compute computation.
"While we were doing this, we had it plugged into a wall meter, and the whole system itself was generating about 50 Watts," he said of the demo. "That's the whole system - hard drive, memory, everything. And the system beside it, an Intel system, generated well over 100 Watts with a graphics card in it.
"So Kaveri can not only do these really high-end features, but it can do them at very low power, and that's what you want in an HTPC or a home theater type environment."

Full article here:
http://www.techradar.com/news/compu...l-and-potential-use-in-steam-machines-1215121

 

[Gloomy]

Yeah, there's software to do that. I use it when I watch stuff on my monitor. Makes a big difference on a 60Hz display. Hopefully AMD's implementation comes to Hawaii.

 

[Sweepr]

At a lower price point and TDP class than Intel Haswell Core i3, even the most diehard Intel fans should acknowledge the fact that this is an amazing performance from that low TDP APU.

There must be something wrong with their new TDP definition. Perhaps you could enlighten us AtenRa?

Power Consumption (Load)
Prime95 and Unigine Heaven 3.0

Core i3 4330 - 84W
AMD A8-7600 (45W TDP) - 90w

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2014/01/14/amd-a8-7600-kaveri-review/12

Somehow 54-77W TDP Haswell CPUs dont look that bad.

 

[9enesis]

There must be something wrong with their new TDP definition. Perhaps you could enlighten us AtenRa? .

how about you enighten us all....what exactly do you think is wrong with the TDP ?

54-77W TDP Haswell CPUs dont look that bad

emm.... what? yes i3 seem to be using less power than kaveri apus in that chart , so what ?

 

[rainy]

Now the 7600 looks like a good chip at 119$. IMO that chip is the winner over the 7850k which is a complete ripoff. That's the good buy with Kaveri for the SFF/HTPC market. But it isn't available yet from what i've read.

I agree with you: this is definitely the best Kaveri model and I expect that A10-6850M or whatever AMD names it should have a nice advantage in terms of CPU/GPU performance over A10-5750M.

IMHO, AMD should drop prices of A10-7850K/7700K for about 30 dollars (143/122) and accordingly a bit for A8-7600 (105-110).

 

[Sweepr]

how about you enighten us all....what exactly do you think is wrong with the TDP ?
emm.... what? yes i3 seem to be using less power than kaveri apus in that chart , so what ?

54W TDP Core i3s using less power in all tests (both CPU and CPU+IGP) and 45W Kaveri drawing more power than 45W Richland.

Power Consumption (Load)
Prime95 and Unigine Heaven 3.0

AMD A8-6500T (2.1GHz): 76W
AMD A8-7600 (3.1GHz) (45W TDP): 90W

Tech Report

Performance goes up by a fair amount so efficiency is improved as well, but calling both 45W is kinda... strange.

 

[blackened23]

FFS! anyone forcing you to buy one? or what?

Look, I get it. These chips have their niche for HTPC. I didn't say otherwise. But did you even bother analyzing the performance you get for 190$ with the 7850? When compared to the 6800k? Keep in mind the 6800k overclocks very well. The 7850 doesn't. And the 6800k is 50$-60$ cheaper while having similar or within 1% performance in most benchmarks.

Hey if you want to pay more for less, go for it. You can get similar performance with Richland, or even better, you can get a HW i3 + low end dGPU for about the same price. The 7850 is not a progression over richland. Especially if you want to OC. That could be okay if it were priced appropriately, but at 190$? It's too much for what you get IMO. The 7600 seems priced appropriately for what you get, but the 7850 just isn't.

Or you can get the 7850, pay more money while getting less, just because it has the AMD logo on it. It's all up to you.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Just in time for Broadwell then.



Shh! You might actually ruin an old fallacious argument posting things like this.

LOL One of the silliest posters on any forum. :awe:

 

[sm625]

AMD needed to optimize their APU graphics drivers to at least match the performance of a discrete HD7750. Given all the HSA and HUMA enhancements, they should have been able to do this at launch. If they had a dozen people on the driver team working on this, I bet they could do it in two years. But that does no good now. Because in two years the HD7750 will be replaced by a R7-370X (or whatever) that is twice as fast as a HD7750 for the same price. They just dont have the resources to even take advantage of their own architectural advancements. It's quite sad really...

 

[9enesis]

54W TDP Core i3s using less power in all tests (both CPU and CPU+IGP) and 45W Kaveri drawing more power than 45W Richland..

ok...you think that, just because i3 and richland is drawing less in that particular test , the argument of kaveri's somehow flawed TDP rating is valid?

Performance goes up by a fair amount so efficiency is probably improved as well, but calling both 45W is kinda... strange.

you do realize that the power (peak power btw) in that chart stands for total sys power right? also who here is to tell for sure , what is the power draw in that sys for each part (mobo ram etc) seperately at that test using the kaveri apu ? m? anyone here ?

 

[blackened23]

you do realize that the power (peak power btw) in that chart stands for total sys power right? also who here is to tell for sure , what is the power draw in that sys for each part (mobo ram etc) seperately at that test using the kaveri apu ? m? anyone here ?

The 4770k measures total system draw as well, right? I don't see the point of even mentioning this. All of the CPUs tested were total power draw, and this chip should not exceed the 4770k, i'm thinking?

 

[Erenhardt]

[/B]When you were talking about Kaveri it was all about GPU performance and Gaming, when the discussion went to the Intel courtyard you are talking about single CPU thread performance.

FTFY...

Except it's barely faster than your 4670 on the GPU side. So, assuming that's an AM2 X2, rather than spending $190 for a processor that needs both a new mobo and premium RAM, you'd probably be better off getting a Phenom II or Athlon II X4 as a drop-in replacement.

e: Didn't see A8. That helps on the price, but makes it even less worthwhile for performance.

It is AMD athlon 64 X2 4200 on AM2. So no Athlon II for this board (requires AM2+), not even 4 core CPU.

Hardware.fr showed 7850k at the same level as 6670 DDR5. In all reviews, AT included, a8-7600 is barely any slower than 7850k. Going through various Techpowerup reviews I found out that 4670 is about 5570 performance. The 6670 is about 50% faster than 5570. So the difference in graphics performance from 4670 to a8-7600 should be around 50%, maybe more in new games (dx 11.2?)?

I could have spare 7750 to pair it with APU in dual graphics somewhere in the future. Sadly it didn't work (?) for hardware.fr? If that will not work, I can always change with someone for R7-250 - win/win exchange.

It's not my PC. This is sims/school machine that my sister is using. The performance is not a major concern, but the old motherboard is giving me problems lately, and those ancient 2 cores are becoming too slow for anything really. This APU alone should run sims4 in 1280x1024 with playable framerate - hell it runs BF4 at FullHD@30fps.

She doesn't make a living from running cinabench 24/7, opposite to what some seem to be doing here .

If I make a8-7600 build, I'm 100% sure I will plug my HD7870 to play the new Thief game with TrueAudio. In fact, Thief should be the first real benchmark of what kaveri is capable of.

 

[AtenRa]

The TDP is for the entire APU, that means both the CPU and iGPU. Same applies for the Intel APUs. The majority of reviews measure peak power consumption for the CPU alone.

Also, measuring power consumption without having the performance at that measurement is useless.

 

[9enesis]

But did you even bother analyzing the performance you get for 190$ with the 7850? When compared to the 6800k?

yes i did , 7850k is a fail. the prices will go down however.

You can get similar performance with Richland, or even better, you can get a HW i3 + low end dGPU for about the same price. .

would you recomend that for a mini itx build?

It's all up to you.

exactly , as it is for anyone else in this place - no need to repeat the same argument.

and btw i am not a fanboy :biggrin:

 

[Sweepr]

ok...you think that, just because i3 and richland is drawing less in that particular test , the argument of kaveri's somehow flawed TDP rating is valid?

you do realize that the power (peak power btw) in that chart stands for total sys power right? also who here is to tell for sure , what is the power draw in that sys for each part (mobo ram etc) seperately at that test using the kaveri apu ? m? anyone here ?

I do, but a 14W difference between two low power systems (45W Richland and Kaveri) confirmed by 2 different hardware sites using different tests is nothing to cough at. Personally I wouldnt care about such minor difference but some people might care (hence why a certain user compared them to higher TDP Core i3s).