The Official Xbox One Thread

[mindcycle]

Quote:
Q: Will Xbox One allow players to trade in, purchase and play pre-owned games?
A: We are designing Xbox One to enable customers to trade in and resell games. We’ll have more details to share later.

that is all we know as fact as of now.

Yeah, it's obvious that MS and various publishers want to control the used market this time around. I just hope that doesn't mean draconian DRM that ties game discs to your console only, or other such nonesense, but I have a feeling it will..

Meh.. i'm fine going back to gaming on my PC for a couple years if need be. At least on the PC side you have a choice to not buy games with retarded DRM. If the Xbox one ties every disc to your console (or other such nonsense) you have no choice. F that I say.

 

[smackababy]

All the guys who made Xbox 360 a huge success left and it shows. With Xbox 1 (not to be confused with One) they were out to nickle and dime you for everything. They relaxed on Xbox 360 (got a little worse over time) but seems that model is back. Things are looking up for the PS4, doesn't hurt that it just may be a more powerful system on top of that.

What about the original Xbox nickle and dimed me? I got one the day Xbox Live launched, for Xbox Live. Other than that and the DVD remote, I bought nothing except an S class controller (and it wasn't because my Duke was bad) and games.

Being the most powerful system means very little today. Wasn't the PS3 more powerful than the Xbox? Cross platform games looked nearly identical. Exclusives would have been exclusive anyway. I am not saying the PS4 will be a bad gaming system, because it won't and I will be buying it. I am just saying the Xbox One offers a lot more to non gamers, and therefore, has a bigger advantage in a market where people want devices that do a lot of things.

 

[RedRooster]

All the guys who made Xbox 360 a huge success left and it shows. With Xbox 1 (not to be confused with One) they were out to nickle and dime you for everything. They relaxed on Xbox 360 (got a little worse over time) but seems that model is back. Things are looking up for the PS4, doesn't hurt that it just may be a more powerful system on top of that.

I felt the OG XBox was the least restrictive, no? It was basically a PC back then, just super simple and no nonsense and great/unique exclusive games. I really loved that system. The 360 gen started fantastic and got worse and worse.

 

[KaOTiK]

Being the most powerful system means very little today. Wasn't the PS3 more powerful than the Xbox? Cross platform games looked nearly identical. Exclusives would have been exclusive anyway. I am not saying the PS4 will be a bad gaming system, because it won't and I will be buying it. I am just saying the Xbox One offers a lot more to non gamers, and therefore, has a bigger advantage in a market where people want devices that do a lot of things.

Being most powerful is going to be a bit different this time. The PS3 was/is a pain to develop for and because of that it suffered for it with most multiplatform games. This time around Sony has went the standard x86 platform that devs do know and it is also the same type as the new Xbox. So when you have 2 systems that you can develop a game the same way but one will have better specs, that one will at least look and/or run better.

 

[American Gunner]

Being the most powerful system means very little today. Wasn't the PS3 more powerful than the Xbox? Cross platform games looked nearly identical. Exclusives would have been exclusive anyway. I am not saying the PS4 will be a bad gaming system, because it won't and I will be buying it. I am just saying the Xbox One offers a lot more to non gamers, and therefore, has a bigger advantage in a market where people want devices that do a lot of things.

I'm with you on this. I think I will eventually end up with both consoles after a few years, for now I just have to decide which one I want first.

 

[smackababy]

Being most powerful is going to be a bit different this time. The PS3 was/is a pain to develop for and because of that it suffered for it with most multiplatform games. This time around Sony has went the standard x86 platform that devs do know and it is also the same type as the new Xbox. So when you have 2 systems that you can develop a game the same way but one will have better specs, that one will at least look and/or run better.

That might be true in some instances (such as slowdown / lag in MVC3 on PS3), but for the majority of games, there will be no noticeable difference. Exactly how much more powerful is the PS4 compared to the Xbox? Could it be the difference between say a 680GTX and a Titan? Or is it something like a 880GTX and a Titan? I can not see developers, especially before the end of the life cycle of the consoles, doing much different development.

What I think developers (not the big cross platform developers like EA, Activision, etc) will use as the deciding factor is how ease it is to port vs what console has the largest marketshare.


Interesting "development": EA / Dice has announced BF4 will be releasing for all consoles (including PS4 / XO) on Oct. 29th. Could that mean a sooner release date for the XO than the PS4 (late Novemeber)? Still strange they are releasing, at the very least, the PS4 version a month ahead of the console.

 

[Dominato3r]

Being most powerful is going to be a bit different this time. The PS3 was/is a pain to develop for and because of that it suffered for it with most multiplatform games. This time around Sony has went the standard x86 platform that devs do know and it is also the same type as the new Xbox. So when you have 2 systems that you can develop a game the same way but one will have better specs, that one will at least look and/or run better.

Yea. I think ~3 years in the games will look nearly identical. But if the Ps4 is as powerful as people say we will start to see some differences.

The biggest question though is if developers can be bothered enough to actually create a difference. I'm thinking no, besides first party games.

 

[ImpulsE69]

You guys are dismissing that games aren't made like they used to be, meaning different teams on different consoles making 2 versions of the same game, utilizing the best features of each system...remember how people used to argue over which version of games were better? Now it's all about lowest potential and copying that exact game to the other platform, regardless of power. Games will be more identical on different systems this generation than ever before because thats the cheapest route.

You will still end up with the same game on all platforms regardless of power (except potentially the PC where in rare instances they make improvements).

 

[smackababy]

You guys are dismissing that games aren't made like they used to be, meaning different teams on different consoles making 2 versions of the same game. Now it's all about lowest potential and copying that exact game to the other platform, regardless of power.

You will still end up with the same game on all platforms regardless of power (except potentially the PC where in rare instances they make improvements).

That is what I was trying to get at. With the current design of both consoles, a single team and developer and release, rather than a PS3 team and an Xbox team. After being able to merge (meaning layoffs ofc) why would they fracture development again to add a few extra high res textures on the PS4?

 

[KaOTiK]

That might be true in some instances (such as slowdown / lag in MVC3 on PS3), but for the majority of games, there will be no noticeable difference. Exactly how much more powerful is the PS4 compared to the Xbox? Could it be the difference between say a 680GTX and a Titan? Or is it something like a 880GTX and a Titan? I can not see developers, especially before the end of the life cycle of the consoles, doing much different development.

What I think developers (not the big cross platform developers like EA, Activision, etc) will use as the deciding factor is how ease it is to port vs what console has the largest marketshare.


Interesting "development": EA / Dice has announced BF4 will be releasing for all consoles (including PS4 / XO) on Oct. 29th. Could that mean a sooner release date for the XO than the PS4 (late Novemeber)? Still strange they are releasing, at the very least, the PS4 version a month ahead of the console.

Here is the catch, developers already have those higher quality assets when they make a game, know how I know? Look at the PC ports, we get much higher res textures and other features, they just downscale them for consoles. The texture artist aren't making crappy looking low res textures based on the console, they are making nice high res ones and then they get downscaled to fit in the consoles memory footprint with acceptable performance. It wont take any real effort to do this as it is being done already.

Ports this time around are going to be the easiest they have ever been between consoles as well. They are pretty much mirror platforms with some different specs. While we don't know what the PS4 OS footprint is yet (I think I read a rumor (which was from same places that accurately released the PS4 specs well in advance) that the footprint is lke 1.5-2GB), the X1's is 3GB. I would not be surprised if the PS4 footprint is much less than that so not only having better specs, it will also have more memory available (granted this is all hypothetical but without good reason I'd say).

I expect the first year things will look pretty even as everyone is getting familiar with the new hardware and such. After that I believe we will start seeing differences and not just first party games.

 

[Dominato3r]

There was an interesting discussion I read about the potential price of these things.

Microsoft definitely has the cash to sell this at a loss. Sony doesnt have that flex.

Do you think they'd be willing to sell at a loss again? I know Sony mentioned they planned on getting good margins on sales, but would Microsoft sell at a loss to one-up Sony?

 

[smackababy]

There was an interesting discussion I read about the potential price of these things.

Microsoft definitely has the cash to sell this at a loss. Sony doesnt have that flex.

Do you think they'd be willing to sell at a loss again? I know Sony mentioned they planned on getting good margins on sales, but would Microsoft sell at a loss to one-up Sony?

I think it all depends on how much Sony can get for their console. Say if the PS4 costs $599, MS will most certainly 1up them with $499 or even $399. The Xbox is using some cheaper parts than the PS4, so that gives them a bit of leeway and having the cash to lose on the first year or two is a great pad to have.

 

[Aikouka]

there is absolutely no way that is possible if both consoles are offline. how will they "lock" the game to my account if neither of them ever touched online? they would have no idea which console installed the game first if it installed to both consoles, and "locked" it to both consoles.

There have been a few reports that the console doesn't require a constant Internet connection, but that Microsoft will make the console require a phone-home procedure every 24 hours to ensure things are kosher.

But my conjecture isn't from Wired, who have already been proven as complete BS. They "broke" the story about having to pay to play a used game. MS already debunked that. Yet, people still think what Wired has been reporting as 100% fact.

I'm pretty certain that I've seen the story in multiple places with random Microsoft personnel verifying some form of install-based DRM on every game regardless of retail or digital.

But it is definitely quite a mess right now.

I don't think it would be that hard, if you have a master copy of the game and an extra side bit of code that is generated for each individual pressing. Yes, it would require new steps to set up, but it can't be that hard. Also, there is some new chip for the Blu-ray drive that makes spoofing authentication "impossible", which just means harder as of right now.

But, from your example about offline authentication, yes it would be impossible to verify UNLESS the Xbox requires an internet connection.

...or just include a code on a piece of paper. Arguably, the disc itself doesn't matter, because it's just an installation medium. It's kind of like how World of Warcraft discs are useless (except for installation) once you've attached the code to your account.

 

[KaOTiK]

There was an interesting discussion I read about the potential price of these things.

Microsoft definitely has the cash to sell this at a loss. Sony doesnt have that flex.

Do you think they'd be willing to sell at a loss again? I know Sony mentioned they planned on getting good margins on sales, but would Microsoft sell at a loss to one-up Sony?

They both are going to sell at a loss. While Sony isn't in the best financial position anymore they can handle it, especially since the SCE division is their most profitable so they will eat the losses on systems like they have with their previous ones because they know it will pay off.

MS is from my understanding going to offer the option for the X1 to get the price reduced by subsidizing it if you sign up for a 2 year Live contract like they currently do with the 360. They will of course offer the option to flat out buy it as well.

Personally I expect both systems to be $500.

 

[Aikouka]

Microsoft definitely has the cash to sell this at a loss. Sony doesnt have that flex.

Sony as a whole might not be that well off, but varying divisions from within Sony (including SCEI, which handles the PlayStation) are doing alright to very well. I think Sony's most profitable division is either their entertainment (movies/music) or apparently some insurance division.

I think it all depends on how much Sony can get for their console. Say if the PS4 costs $599, MS will most certainly 1up them with $499 or even $399. The Xbox is using some cheaper parts than the PS4, so that gives them a bit of leeway and having the cash to lose on the first year or two is a great pad to have.

The biggest difference between the two is probably the choice of memory, but that won't provide them too much leeway. Microsoft probably has a far larger APU because while it may have a smaller GPU (less CUs), it has the eSRAM that is estimated to be around 1.2 billion transistors alone. Huge chips mean less chips per wafer.

 

[smackababy]

...or just include a code on a piece of paper. Arguably, the disc itself doesn't matter, because it's just an installation medium. It's kind of like how World of Warcraft discs are useless (except for installation) once you've attached the code to your account.

They could, but that is cumbersome to the customer and frowned upon. If you could hide it (which was what I was demonstrating to purbeast how "easy" it would be), then it would be the best strategy for MS. Why bother forcing the customer to input some 20 digit code when you can just do a MD5 sumcheck and get your unique key. We don't have to worry about that being broken any time soon anyway, and in the event it is broken, pirating Xbox games would be the least of anyone's worries. MD5 hashes are used for so much security and encryption, we're screwed if a hacker finds a way to reverse engineer it or break it.

All you passwords are belong to them. >_<

 

[Aikouka]

They could, but that is cumbersome to the customer and frowned upon. If you could hide it (which was what I was demonstrating to purbeast how "easy" it would be), then it would be the best strategy for MS. Why bother forcing the customer to input some 20 digit code when you can just do a MD5 sumcheck and get your unique key. We don't have to worry about that being broken any time soon anyway, and in the event it is broken, pirating Xbox games would be the least of anyone's worries. MD5 hashes are used for so much security and encryption, we're screwed if a hacker finds a way to reverse engineer it or break it.

All you passwords are belong to them. >_<

Oh, I've got an idea! It may seem kind of silly, but what about a bar code instead of an alpha-numeric code? Since every X1 comes with a Kinect, and it's rumored that it's required to even use the console, you could easily hold it up and have it scan it. It's sort of like what the Amazon app does on my phone to search for items via UPC.

I wouldn't care which one they chose, because I just hook a keyboard up to my system when I need to type stuff.

... that made me think of something too. What about a media remote? The 360 has one that works via IR, but the X1 doesn't have an IR window that they've mentioned (it has an IR blaster port on the back). Are they expecting people to use the Kinect instead of a remote? Heck, with the 360, I like just using the remote to do quick things instead of turning a controller on -- same with the PS3's Bluetooth-based remote.

 

[SAWYER]

The new Kinect is very impressive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi5kMNfgDS4

 

[smackababy]

Oh, I've got an idea! It may seem kind of silly, but what about a bar code instead of an alpha-numeric code? Since every X1 comes with a Kinect, and it's rumored that it's required to even use the console, you could easily hold it up and have it scan it. It's sort of like what the Amazon app does on my phone to search for items via UPC.

I wouldn't care which one they chose, because I just hook a keyboard up to my system when I need to type stuff.

... that made me think of something too. What about a media remote? The 360 has one that works via IR, but the X1 doesn't have an IR window that they've mentioned (it has an IR blaster port on the back). Are they expecting people to use the Kinect instead of a remote? Heck, with the 360, I like just using the remote to do quick things instead of turning a controller on -- same with the PS3's Bluetooth-based remote.

Why would they even have to include an extra code then? They have a barcode on the boxes already. It should be easy to just scan the UPC. And even then, it still makes the users do something to "register" their games and that is frowned upon.

I don't know about the remotes though. I assume they will have to have some way, wanting to be a media center and all. They could possibly except people to use all voice commands.

 

[RedRooster]

Oh, I've got an idea! It may seem kind of silly, but what about a bar code instead of an alpha-numeric code? Since every X1 comes with a Kinect, and it's rumored that it's required to even use the console, you could easily hold it up and have it scan it. It's sort of like what the Amazon app does on my phone to search for items via UPC.

I wouldn't care which one they chose, because I just hook a keyboard up to my system when I need to type stuff.

... that made me think of something too. What about a media remote? The 360 has one that works via IR, but the X1 doesn't have an IR window that they've mentioned (it has an IR blaster port on the back). Are they expecting people to use the Kinect instead of a remote? Heck, with the 360, I like just using the remote to do quick things instead of turning a controller on -- same with the PS3's Bluetooth-based remote.

That would be cool and handy. Also, reading it to Kinect would be way easier than typing too. Assuming that works as well as they say.

 

[BladeVenom]

Here is the catch, developers already have those higher quality assets when they make a game, know how I know? Look at the PC ports, we get much higher res textures and other features, they just downscale them for consoles. The texture artist aren't making crappy looking low res textures based on the console, they are making nice high res ones and then they get downscaled to fit in the consoles memory footprint with acceptable performance. It wont take any real effort to do this as it is being done already.

Ports this time around are going to be the easiest they have ever been between consoles as well. They are pretty much mirror platforms with some different specs. While we don't know what the PS4 OS footprint is yet (I think I read a rumor (which was from same places that accurately released the PS4 specs well in advance) that the footprint is lke 1.5-2GB), the X1's is 3GB. I would not be surprised if the PS4 footprint is much less than that so not only having better specs, it will also have more memory available (granted this is all hypothetical but without good reason I'd say).

I expect the first year things will look pretty even as everyone is getting familiar with the new hardware and such. After that I believe we will start seeing differences and not just first party games.

I agree. The PS4 is going to be so much more powerful in terms of graphics that most developers will take advantage of it. Those that don't will look bad by comparison.

This isn't like last generation where they were almost evenly matched in graphics.

 

[gorcorps]

I'm curious if initial sales will be soft after the RROD debacle of this gen. A lot of people shy away from being early adopters anyway for similar things, but the RROD seemed to be a more publicized issue. Obviously there's no way to know what affects sales, but it still might be a factor.

 

[smackababy]

That would be cool and handy. Also, reading it to Kinect would be way easier than typing too. Assuming that works as well as they say.

I've been able to do this on my phone for a long time, I don't see how much harder it will be for MS to come up with an app to do it.

I'm curious if initial sales will be soft after the RROD debacle of this gen. A lot of people shy away from being early adopters anyway for similar things, but the RROD seemed to be a more publicized issue. Obviously there's no way to know what affects sales, but it still might be a factor.

I think MS's response to the RROD issue was phenomenal. They not only extended the warranty, replaced the hardware no questions asked, but also had free shipping. Not many companies do that.

And I think they made it a point to get that huge internal fan pic published and make the rounds. They want people who are skeptical to see they are taking cooling seriously this time.

 

[zerocool84]

They both are going to sell at a loss. While Sony isn't in the best financial position anymore they can handle it, especially since the SCE division is their most profitable so they will eat the losses on systems like they have with their previous ones because they know it will pay off.

MS is from my understanding going to offer the option for the X1 to get the price reduced by subsidizing it if you sign up for a 2 year Live contract like they currently do with the 360. They will of course offer the option to flat out buy it as well.

Personally I expect both systems to be $500.

For these past two years, all the rumors have been that they will not be selling these at a loss which is why it's not top of the line hardware this round. Obviously we won't know that yet.

 

[Aikouka]

Why would they even have to include an extra code then? They have a barcode on the boxes already. It should be easy to just scan the UPC. And even then, it still makes the users do something to "register" their games and that is frowned upon.

UPCs are only unique per SKU, which games normally only have one unless something inside the packaging (or the packaging itself) changes. If they wanted to avoid typing in codes, it would probably be easier to just create a separate one inside that you scan.

That also made me realize something else... typing in a code probably wouldn't be that bad. XBOX Live uses long codes because the codes are the same format for anything you buy on XBOX Live. However, what if you make a shorter alpha-numeric code? You don't really need a long code, because they're specific to a certain game, and that game would already be chosen prior to entering the code. That means you don't need a part in the code to help differentiate between the item being purchased. If you consider that the best game won't sell more than 100 million copies, it only takes six alpha-numeric characters to fulfill that. Also, even if typing in something like A04CV8 sounds bad, what if you could just say it and have Kinect input it? That might work well too!

That would be cool and handy. Also, reading it to Kinect would be way easier than typing too. Assuming that works as well as they say.

Hmm well, the Amazon app (and a few others with this feature) work pretty well.