The other great thing about a Geforce4

[sharkeeper]

I remember a Cyrix conference held in 1996 comparing a P166+ to a Pentium 200 with Duke Nukem 3D. They claimed 13fps was the minimum needed for smooth gameplay! HA! How times change! This was at 320x240 VGA resolution to boot!

Cheers!

 

[nRollo]

"The fact is that your card will get crushed at 1600 x 1200 on certain levels."
BTW- how the heck do you know that? Have you played Undying on a GF4? The guys here at Anand seem to think you need a GF4 for smooth hi res gaming:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1583&p=10
"The rest of the cards clearly can't cope with the higher resolution as it does take the incredibly fill rate and memory bandwidth of a card like the GeForce4 Ti 4400 or 4600 in order to run at 1600 x 1200 relatively smoothly."

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1583&p=12
"The performance standings don't change at 1280 x 1024 but now it takes no less than a GeForce4 Ti 4400 in order to break the 60 fps barrier."


I'm starting to think you're one of these guys who buys a pretty hot computer and then goes around posting about how no one else can have a satisfying/acceptable gaming experience because they don't reach "XXfps". (and you know full well they can't unless they have a rig like yours)
You seem to be kind of a benchmark junkie. I'd talk to you more about this, but as you have a GF3, you wouldn't understand what smooth hi-res gaming is about.

 

[gunf1ghter]

This thread was about the joy of running older games at blistering framerates on newer vid cards... I would appreciate it if you all could do your crapping in someone else's thread.

 

[308nato]

I just went from a Visiontek ti-200 to a Visiontek ti-4600. I had the money to upgrade now but I won't in 6 months so I went ahead and bought. Personally, I have NEVER IN MY LIFE ONCE checked the fps of a game I was playing. If its smooth its smooth and if it sucks it sucks. When it sucks I upgrade something. Right now I am typing away on the kids p3-450 katmai with a VooDoo3 3000. Was just "gliding" through a little UNREAL. I can't help it. I love playing a few games on the VooDoo now and then. It still looks pretty to me. Thats all I want. Smooth and pretty. (Don't tell my wife)

But, I will load the old games on the new rig soon to see what they look like. Another thread seemed to indicate that the only reason to buy a ti-4600 was for bragging rights. I am just buying new stuff while I can.

 

[JellyBaby]

Undying is flying now on my Ti4400 @300/650. I can't wait to replay Deus Ex which also uses that formerly poking engine.

 

[BFG10K]

First of all, those of you who think that 30 FPS is smooth should try Mingon's program that he linked to. In it I can easily see a difference between a constant 60 FPS and a constant 120 FPS. Of course I've known that for a long time but this program is good for backing up my claims because everyone can see what I'm talking about.

And please, don't dredge up the tired old TV/movies argument. This issue has been disproven so many times that I really don't want to get into it again.

so I guess I don't know about the monastery.

Then please don't talk about things you know nothing about.

I don't know how to test fps in that game, but will if you'll enlighten me.

Hit the [Tab] key and type showfps [enter].

As for "crawling" like I said, I ran around shooting floor creatures while they shot me with their green dust.

I'm not claiming that the game crawls everywhere on your card at that setting, I'm saying that it'll crawl in some places.

You can say it's unplayable if you like, must be a GF3 thing.

No, it's a game thing because I'm playing at 1152 x 864 x 32. Your card running at 1600 x 1200 is not going to be faster than mine at 1152 x 864.

(don't like to squint at the 1" monsters yipping and yapping)

Uh no, it's nothing like that at all.

3D games operate in world coordinates, not screen coordinates. Therefore a monster at 320 x 240 res will be exactly the same size at 1600 x 1200, and so will every other 3D object.

hey i know this is a little off topic, but where can i download some frame demos for UT?...thanks, Eric...

Use the bult-in city flybuy demo.

BTW- how the heck do you know that? Have you played Undying on a GF4?

No but I just know. I've had a tonne of experience with 3D gaming and video cards and I have a pretty good feel for things like that, especially when it comes to video card scaling and making accurate performance estimates.

No doubt when I get my Ti4600, it'll serve to verify my current statements.

The guys here at Anand seem to think you need a GF4 for smooth hi res gaming:

Oh come on now, don't be so naive. One game running smoothly at 1600 x 1200 doesn't mean that all other games will do the same. The blanket statement "the Ti4400 runs all games smoothly at 1600 x 1200" is utter rubbish.

I'm starting to think you're one of these guys who buys a pretty hot computer and then goes around posting about how no one else can have a satisfying/acceptable gaming experience because they don't reach "XXfps". (and you know full well they can't unless they have a rig like yours)

False, however:

(1) I'm not delusional about what my hardware can and can't do.
(2) I have no emotional attachment to my hardware and I tell it like it is.
(3) (1) and (2) equally apply to video cards that I don't own.

I'd talk to you more about this, but as you have a GF3, you wouldn't understand what smooth hi-res gaming is about.

I understand far more than you do.

 

[EMAN]

I understand far more than you do.

But of course you do. Your never wrong BFG.:disgust:

The bottom line: Some people are happy with 25fps and some are not happy with 60fps. It's preference.

End of story.

 

[rogue1979]

BFG10K, I was taking your responses to everyone elses post seriously until you said:

3D games operate in world coordinates, not screen coordinates. Therefore a monster at 320 x 240 res will be exactly the same size at 1600 x 1200, and so will every other 3D object.

Wow, what a blooper! I don't know about a 320 x 240 resolution, but just like fonts when the resolution changes from 640 x 480 or 600 x 800 up to 1024 x 768 or 1600 x 1200 3D or 2D objects will appear smaller on the same monitor! Test it and see, I think a retraction is in order.

 

[Powerforward]

How are you guys liking Freespace 2 again? I played that first on a PII 400 with an ATI Rage Fury last year and liked it. Now I have an Athlon TBird 1.33 with a Radeon 8500 and I'd like to play it again, but I don't recall the game having that much replay value. Any opinions?

 

[gunf1ghter]

rogue....no, I'm afraid that he's correct.

the game engine will render everything with the same perspective regardless of what resolution you are running at.

 

[rogue1979]

I think we are talking apples and oranges here. When I say changing the game resolution to a higher value makes things smaller I assumed you would also change your desktop to a matching resolution. I took for granted that everyone chooses to match their game resolution and desktop resolution so that the screen is correctly sized for the monitor. I can't imagine anyone playing a game that doesn't fit the monitor correctly. That is definately one thing that is a priority for me, I expect the movies, lead in graphics and games to fit and fill my 20" trinitron perfectly.

 

[gunf1ghter]

Actually you seemed to be indicating that at lower resolutions (taking up the full screen) that the monsters, etc, would be smaller at higher resolutions... that is incorrect. The game engine will render the bad guys at the same "size" or "perspective" size regardless of what rez.

It seems you thought I was talking about running the game windowed on your desktop? That's not at all what I am talking about.

 

[Dimitri]

<< I took for granted that everyone chooses to match their game resolution and desktop resolution so that the screen is correctly sized for the monitor. >>



Correctly sized? Not sure what you mean, I run games at 1024 but my desktop at 1152 and both fill the screen and look perfect and run at 100Hz refresh.

 

[rogue1979]

Not all games, but here are three that require the desktop and games settings to have the same resolution in order to be sized correctly. Janes WW2, Mech 4, Need for Speed Porsche Unleashed- running with a Geforce 2 Ti 500, Win98 SE, 23.12 detonator, Dell Trinitron 20" at 85Hz. My kids have the same results with a Radeon 32MB DDR, Win 98, 7189 driver and a Dell Trinitron 17" running at a 100Hz refresh rate. Some games like Unreal are sized correctly no matter what.

 

[gunf1ghter]

I run MW4 at 1024X768 even though my desktop is 1268X1024 and everything is sized correctly, so I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[EMAN]

Rogue, you can play NFS Porsche Unleashed at 1600x1200 without changing your desktop resolution.

 

[nRollo]

BFG10K:
"Then please don't talk about things you know nothing about."
Then could you please stop posting on this board altogether? What? Don't want to? I guess I'll disregard your "advice" as well.
Beyond that, I don't think not having played the monastery level can be defined as "knowing nothing about" Undying. Last I checked, you don't have to play every level of a game to bench it.

"Hit the [Tab] key and type showfps [enter]."
Thanks. 60-62 fps steady @ 300/650 timings, 55-62fps at stock 275/550. 16X12X32, everything maxed. So I guess I'm not "crawling" in the manor anyway.

"I'm saying that it'll crawl in some places"
You didn't say that the first time.

"Oh come on now, don't be so naive."
I wasn't saying the GF4 runs all games smoothly at X resolution, I was using the benchmarks as illustrative of my point that using a GF3 to play Undying may well be a different experience than using a GF4.
(and that you can't extrapolate knowledge of GF4s from your GF3 experience)

"I'm not delusional about what my hardware can and can't do.
(2) I have no emotional attachment to my hardware and I tell it like it is.
(3) (1) and (2) equally apply to video cards that I don't own."

I've been drinking too much paint thinner lately, I'm all messed up thinking my 60fps isn't a "crawling slideshow".

"I understand far more than you do. "
LOL- I'm sure you do Big Chief Gaming Knowledge, I'm sure you do.

 

[BFG10K]

Some people are happy with 25fps and some are not happy with 60fps. It's preference.

Agreed but the 25 FPS people should not be telling me that I don't need 60 FPS.

Wow, what a blooper! I don't know about a 320 x 240 resolution, but just like fonts when the resolution changes from 640 x 480 or 600 x 800 up to 1024 x 768 or 1600 x 1200 3D or 2D objects will appear smaller on the same monitor!

That argument is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start:

(1) 3D objects will never be smaller.
(2) I was talking about 3D objects, not 2D objects.
(3) Fonts have absolutely nothing to with the discussion. Nothing at all.
(3) Even with 2D sprites if they're done correctly they'll be the same size regradless of resolution. Look at the Quake3 HUD numbers - they're always the same size regardless of the resolution. Raw text and hard coded sprites might be smaller but then I was never talking about that and neither were you for that matter.

When I say changing the game resolution to a higher value makes things smaller I assumed you would also change your desktop to a matching resolution.

What on earth are you talking about? What does your desktop resolution have to do with the gaming resolution? And for that matter, what does a 3D monster (which is what you were initially talking about) have to do with your 2D desktop?

I took for granted that everyone chooses to match their game resolution and desktop resolution so that the screen is correctly sized for the monitor.

Why? Nobody does that. Everyone picks whatever res works best in 2D mode and then for each game they pick whatever res works the best there too. Forcing yourself to use one resolution for everything is just plain silly.

I can't imagine anyone playing a game that doesn't fit the monitor correctly.

Neither can I which is why I use the monitor controls to adjust the picture if it isn't quite right. You do know about those controls, right?

I expect the movies, lead in graphics and games to fit and fill my 20" trinitron perfectly.

So adjust your picture settings with your monitor's controls. Again, I have no clue why you're locking yourself into one resolution.

Not all games, but here are three that require the desktop and games settings to have the same resolution in order to be sized correctly.

Uh, why don't you just use the monitor controls?

Rogue, you can play NFS Porsche Unleashed at 1600x1200 without changing your desktop resolution.

In fact in most cases you can play any 3D game at any resolution you want, regardless of your 2D resolution. I'm not sure what Rogue is on about.

Last I checked, you don't have to play every level of a game to bench it.

No but you do if you're to claim that it never crawls on your card at 1600 x 1200, like you did.

So I guess I'm not "crawling" in the manor anyway.

Which means precisely nothing for the rest of the game.

You didn't say that the first time.

I didn't say it would crawl everywhere either. But if it crawls somewhere then I've been proven to be correct and you were proven wrong since you denied that it ever crawls on your card. Also you never said that your card is overclocked which is just plain sneaky since it was obvious that I was talking about a GF4 Ti4400 at stock speeds.

I was using the benchmarks as illustrative of my point that using a GF3 to play Undying may well be a different experience than using a GF4. (and that you can't extrapolate knowledge of GF4s from your GF3 experience)

I don't know what kind of extrapolation you do but no-one in their right mind uses different games' performance to extrapolate performance in another totally different game. If you want to estimate performance in Undying you stick to using Undying, understanding how it runs in a wide variety of situations (preferably by finishing the game at least once) and using the relative speed of the video cards against each other.

LOL- I'm sure you do Big Chief Gaming Knowledge, I'm sure you do.

Considering that you didn't even know how to show the current FPS in Undying while arguing against me as to how your video card performs at 1600 x 1200 in situations you hadn't even seen yet puts my statements at a rather considerable advantage to yours, don't you think?

 

[rogue1979]

I guess I am lazy then Sometimes in the space of an hour I will fire up 4 or 5 different games and play, I don't want to be bothered with adjusting my monitor continuously. I like it where everything is sized perfectly and ready to play with no fiddling. 1024 x 768 x 32 at 4x FSAA works well for all the games I play, they look good and play smooth. My kids also use my rig to play games quite abit, I want to make sure everything is set for them and I don't want them "adjusting stuff". My circle of friends and relatives that I do most of my gaming with are lazy too, because they just want to fire up and play immediately also. I think there is more enjoyment in just playing then using up precious game playing time getting set. I have noticed that by messing with different drivers and refresh rates various games will be sized correctly or incorrectly. I have about 20 games loaded and I just feel fortunate that I can adjust them all to fit correctly. To be honest a higher resolution would be more desirable, but since some of my older games won't support 1268 x 1024 or 1600 x 1200 that would leave me with manually adjusting the monitor each and everytime I wanted to play. Plus I am sure that some games at 1600 x 1200 would choke down the Geforce 2 Ti at 290/520, it works great how I currently use it, but of course it does have limitations.

Sorry everybody about the confusion about higher resolutions making things look smaller. Again let me explain that this is with also changing your desktop resolution and I am sure that there are some game engines that are immune to this, although unless I have gone completely insane or lost my good vision some game engines will render 3D objects smaller. Seems like FPS games are not affected much, while the flight simulators I play definately are.

 

[nRollo]

"but no-one in their right mind uses different games' performance to extrapolate performance in another totally different game."
You're probably right BCGK, it would be foolish to try say something like,"Here are benchmarks for 100 games. The GF4 is faster in all of them, but the GF3 may well be faster at this one."
Other games CAN'T be used as indicators of fill rate, how well a card functions with an API, handles overdraw, etc. - you have to use the same game!
"No but you do if you're to claim that it never crawls on your card at 1600 x 1200, like you did."
LOL A. I didn't say it "never" crawled b. you implied it always crawls c. that your "point" seems to be reduced to "Well, it will crawl in the snowy monastery level when those 38 monster appear, if you have it at 16X12X32, trilinear, your card clocked at stock speeds, your memory timing set to CAS 3, etc ad infinitum" is a heap big joke, BCGK.

"But if it crawls somewhere then I've been proven to be correct and you were proven wrong "
LOL see above

"Also you never said that your card is overclocked which is just plain sneaky since it was obvious that I was talking about a GF4 Ti4400 at stock speeds."
A. It is sneaky, I've never heard of anyone OCing a VGA before. B. Why is it "obvious" you were talkign about stock speeds C. It really didn't make a big difference (OCing) in this ancient game

"Considering that you didn't even know how to show the current FPS in Undying "
You got me there Big Chief. It is well known in the gaming community that the ability to show fps in Undying is the BEST indicator of gaming knowledge. Never mind that I've had the game 3 weeks, played it less than 2 hours total, fdisked and lost save games, and never had any interest in benchmarking it. I would have found that info out, were I a gaming guru like you.

"arguing against me as to how your video card performs at 1600 x 1200 in situations you hadn't even seen yet puts my statements at a rather considerable advantage to yours, don't you think?"
No, I don't. Your argument is about as "logical" as me saying,"Your Ti 500 crawls on Q3. IF you max all setting, run a demo that plays the level with most/biggest textures, has been programmed to put 100 opponents firing rocketlaunchers simultaneously on the screen at once, it will crawl. I'm right, you're wrong, I've just given you an instance where Q3 will crawl"
That is about how stupid/picayunish you sound BCGK. I think the radiation from the BFG has fried a few of your synapses.

 

[Woodchuck2000]

Why is it that everytime BFG starts talking about frame rates that we get a flame war

This is a thread about revisiting old games with shiny new hardware, as gunf1ghter keeps trying to tell you.... I remember playing Quake (yes, the original) on my VooDoo (yes, the original) card and thinking what an amazing jump it was from my old matrox mystique. I'm expecting to get a similar effect when I finally upgrade my Radeon 7200 to a ge-force 4...

 

[skace]

Rogue, I just wanted to add that I think you are making more work for yourself with the desktop resolutions. When a game is run that requires full screen, it will set the monitor to the resolution set by the ingame setting - independent of your desktop resolution. This shouldn't require you to "adjust" anything, unless your monitor never saves settings. Once you've set your monitor's 1024x768x32x70hz - that setting should be saved until you modify the video driver or change the monitor. Meaning the first time you run a game at said setting, you will have to adjust it to fit the screen right, but it should be saved from then on out. I think some monitors even have auto-adjusting features.

So, in other words, you should be able to run that larger desktop resolution without a hitch. Hopefully this gives you some more desktop space .

As far as FPS goes, I never found a reason for running games at higher than 800x600 until I started running things in window mode. Now I play games like counter-strike in windowed mode and need to run it at 1024x768 just to keep up with my 1280x1024 desktop. Due to this, I quickly find myself needing faster video cards to effeciently make use of windowed mode settings - when I get my GF4 I will be upping my desktop res to 1600 and most games up to at least 1280.

And, for the original post, thanks for reminding me gunf1ghter, I wanna go back and try some older games as soon as I get my GF4!! I can't wait, woot.

 

[EMAN]

Rogue there might be something wrong with your monitor. Once you set your refresh rate for diff. resolution you don't have to fiddle again.

 

[nRollo]

" Why is it that everytime BFG starts talking about frame rates that we get a flame war "

Er, is it because he say inflammatory things like:

"Your computer cannot possibly run my favorite game at a decent framerate"

and other things to that effect?

 

[EMAN]

Rollo, don't get BFG started. This thread will never end now.