the patriot act

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,723
3,132
136
article

"Judge Orders FBI to Turn Over Thousands of Patriot Act Abuse Documents

Just one day after a news that an internal audit found that FBI agents abused a Patriot Act power more than 1000 times, a federal judge ordered the agency Friday to begin turning over thousands of pages of documents related to the agency's use of a powerful, but extremely secretive investigative tool that can pry into telephone and internet records.

The order for monthly document releases commencing July 5 came in response to a government sunshine request by a civil liberties group, which sued in April over the FBI's foot-dragging on its broad request.

The April request from the Electronic Frontier Foundation asked the FBI to turn over documents related to its misuse of National Security Letters, self-issued subpoenas that don't need a judge's approval and which can get financial, phone and internet records. Recipients of the letters are forbidden by law from ever telling anyone other than their lawyer that they received the request. Though initially warned initially to use this power sparingly, FBI agents issued more than 47,000 in 2005, more than half of which targeted Americans. Information obtained from the requests, which need only be certified by the agency to be "relevant" to an investigation, are dumped into a data-mining warehouse for perpetuity.

An Inspector General report in March found rampant errors in the small sample of NSLs examined and systemic underreporting of the powers usage to Congress. The report also found that agents issued more than 700 "expedited" letters, some containing materially false sworn statements. These letters had no legal basis and essentially asked companies to turn over data by pretending there was an emergency in order to get the data necessary to get a proper NSL. One former FBI agent says its clear the FBI violated the law.

Now the Justice Department must turn over 2,500 pages of documents a month to the EFF, including information on cozy surveillance contracts between the FBI and telephone companies and information on how data captured by NSLs were put into the FBI's massive data mining warehouse.

The Justice Department told the court that there were more than 100,000 potentially responsive documents and that ten people are working full time on filling the request for documents. Look out for a run on thick, black magic markers in D.C."


it is going to take years, if not decades, to recover our civil liberties revoked by bush and co. in the name of their so called 'war on terror'.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
HeHe. You really didn't think the Patriot Act was mostly about terrorism, did you?
It was every right wing fanatics wish list of laws that severly limit our freedoms.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
Simply an effort by the government to know everything about the people while they keep all that they do secret.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Although it goes against my grain the defend the indefensible, in fairness to the various officials, the report also found that a good part of the abuses uncovered involved the various
phone companies providing much more than the FBI requested in way of information. So there is more than one big brother involved and much of the information should not have been collected in the first place. But cheer up, if your Aunt Betty holds a bake sale, the government will know all about it.

And no one seems to be questioning the costs of collecting all this information---but in the end we pay for the privilege of having our privacy invaded.

My other quibble is about the post title---give them and inch and they take a foot?---when it should be give them an inch and they take light years.---and we find out later that home land security even has a provision to appoint new US attorneys without congressional conformation. The congress was panicked after 911 and very busy neocons took full advantage of it. The devil is always in the details. And the republican rubber stamp congress was totally asleep at the switch. And so were the dems who fell all over themselves to me too where do I sign. Its going to take many more years to even find out what kind of bill of goods our congress sucked into.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
goody alien42 is a witch! someone lock him up as an enemy combatant before he questions the patriot act even more!
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
goody alien42 is a witch! someone lock him up as an enemy combatant before he questions the patriot act even more!

No No NO loki8481----the witches that must be waterboarded are the un named Federal Judge and the various watchdogs groups. alien42 is merely confused by these news reports and needs re educated. A few hundred hours of listening to Mr. Rodgers re runs should do it. And for that matter all of us who have viewed this thread are similarly contaminated.

So repeat after me---" its a beautiful day in the neighborhood. " Just keeping humming it and believe. Big brother is doing it for our own good. Our founding fathers had it all wrong in the bill of rights---and we can find it in our hearts to rectify their error and bring back mad King George.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

What do you care, aren't you all for a police state in the name of fighting terrorism? In fact, that's the whole problem here...many Americans are STILL too terrified of terrorists hiding under their beds for any politician to do anything that could remotely be used to suggest they are "weak on terror".
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

What do you care, aren't you all for a police state in the name of fighting terrorism? In fact, that's the whole problem here...many Americans are STILL too terrified of terrorists hiding under their beds for any politician to do anything that could remotely be used to suggest they are "weak on terror".

His point is: Here come the lefties screaming and crying about the patiot act... Again. All the while ignoring who cast the votes to pass the act (nearly unanimously) in the first place and who haven't tried to repeal it.

File this one under "I never read the legislation before I voted for it. Had I read it I never would have voted for it. That said, even though I don't like it, I'm not going to rock the boat in this one."

That sounds familliar. Actually it sounds more like "We're going to be in power soon... imagine what we could do with this..."
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,723
3,132
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:
always on the defensive eh? no one else in this thread has mentioned a party except you. congratulations on your failures.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

What do you care, aren't you all for a police state in the name of fighting terrorism? In fact, that's the whole problem here...many Americans are STILL too terrified of terrorists hiding under their beds for any politician to do anything that could remotely be used to suggest they are "weak on terror".

His point is: Here come the lefties screaming and crying about the patiot act... Again. All the while ignoring who cast the votes to pass the act (nearly unanimously) in the first place and who haven't tried to repeal it.

File this one under "I never read the legislation before I voted for it. Had I read it I never would have voted for it. That said, even though I don't like it, I'm not going to rock the boat in this one."

That sounds familliar. Actually it sounds more like "We're going to be in power soon... imagine what we could do with this..."

What the heck are you blathering about? Nobody is ignoring anything, nobody even brought up party except ProfJohn. I bet most "lefties" despise the Dems for not having the spine to stand up against the Patriot Act, but I also think very few people are going to pretend everyone is equally to blame...this was clearly spearheaded by Bush and the Republicans.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

Interesting enough I have yet to see a Republican stand up and try to over turn it. Why is that?

Isn't this a non-partisan issue that affects all parties, all people, and shouldn't be divided by any one side? This is an American problem, not a Democrat or Republican problem.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Generalizing everyone who has responded criticizing the Act "lefties" and then saying "they did it too" is not appropriate for this thread. If he doesn't like or does like the act, let him say so instead of trying to misdirect the discussion.
 

robphelan

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2003
4,084
17
81

i liken what happened right after 9/11 to a personal event that happened to me.

I used to date this girl i really liked who happened to attend a christian fundamentalist church. being Catholic, it was tough, but I tried going with her several times. One thing that I saw and despised was the preacher who preyed on the emotions of his congregation. being an outsider, it was easier for me to see what was transpiring.

he would get them so emotional about their lives that people (women and men) were literally crying. every week it was a different story along the same parallel. he USED those emotions the same way the repugs USED our emotions against us to pass these laws which, if we were in our right state of mind, NEVER would have voted for.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: robphelan

i liken what happened right after 9/11 to a personal event that happened to me.

I used to date this girl i really liked who happened to attend a christian fundamentalist church. being Catholic, it was tough, but I tried going with her several times. One thing that I saw and despised was the preacher who preyed on the emotions of his congregation. being an outsider, it was easier for me to see what was transpiring.

he would get them so emotional about their lives that people (women and men) were literally crying. every week it was a different story along the same parallel. he USED those emotions the same way the repugs USED our emotions against us to pass these laws which, if we were in our right state of mind, NEVER would have voted for.


I think everybody used the same thing after 9/11. I hold no politician seperate from teh group that would use and abuse emotions for political gain. Yet, the one thing I see now, is that several of the Republican candidates keep using it. Guiliani is probably the worst offender.

9/11 was a horrible time. I remember being in NYC in Aug 2003 during the northeastern blackout. I was in the empire state building, in an elevator, on the 82nd floor. Everybody in that elevetor thought one thing, we are dead. Nobody said anything, but we all knew what each other was thinking. That day was calm, nobody panicked.

Now that I live here in NYC and work right across the Chrysler Tower, I don't worry about terrorist attacks. I see the WTC site quite a bit but still don't worry. However, having lived in DC this past year, what pisses me off is the fact that so many people abused their power after 9/11. Looking at the words of Jefferson and Washington after visiting the memorials and then knowing how bad it has gotten just pisses me off.

Don't play the blame game with the parties, everybody is guilty.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
when was the last time a party in power ever reduced (or even, failed to extend) the authoritarian legacy left it by the previous party in power?
 

smackdr

Member
Jun 17, 2007
31
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

Interesting enough I have yet to see a Republican stand up and try to over turn it. Why is that?

Isn't this a non-partisan issue that affects all parties, all people, and shouldn't be divided by any one side? This is an American problem, not a Democrat or Republican problem.

Ron Paul is a presidential candidate for the Republican Party.

*He voted against the Patriot Act
*He's against the Patriot Act
*He also voted against the Iraq War

Ron Paul '08
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Originally posted by: robphelan

i liken what happened right after 9/11 to a personal event that happened to me.

I used to date this girl i really liked who happened to attend a christian fundamentalist church. being Catholic, it was tough, but I tried going with her several times. One thing that I saw and despised was the preacher who preyed on the emotions of his congregation. being an outsider, it was easier for me to see what was transpiring.

he would get them so emotional about their lives that people (women and men) were literally crying. every week it was a different story along the same parallel. he USED those emotions the same way the repugs USED our emotions against us to pass these laws which, if we were in our right state of mind, NEVER would have voted for.

Maybe the Republicans were scared too? I bet you a lot of the Republican congressmen that passed this law wouldn't have done so under different circumstances either. I don't think that excuses people's cowardice in not repealing it now, but that's something different.

As far as a following party in power reducing the reach of the federal government, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. There is currently a bill going through committee (if I'm not mistaken) to ban warrantless wiretapping, and all funding that could be used for it. Of course it was already illegal before... but maybe this time it will stick.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: smackdr
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

Interesting enough I have yet to see a Republican stand up and try to over turn it. Why is that?

Isn't this a non-partisan issue that affects all parties, all people, and shouldn't be divided by any one side? This is an American problem, not a Democrat or Republican problem.

Ron Paul is a presidential candidate for the Republican Party.

*He voted against the Patriot Act
*He's against the Patriot Act
*He also voted against the Iraq War

Ron Paul '08

And he's seen as largely a looney with his zeal to bring down the Fed.

 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Thank god the Democrats are putting so much time and effort into over turning the Patriot Act? :roll:

Still hiding behind the flag? I'll bet your even wishing for another terrorist attack so you can blame the Democrats for not being "tough on terrorism".

Why do you hate freedom?
 

SilthDraeth

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2003
2,635
0
71
Originally posted by: techs
HeHe. You really didn't think the Patriot Act was mostly about terrorism, did you?
It was every right wing fanatics wish list of laws that severly limit our freedoms.

MAYBE I am out of the loop. Frankly I normally do not follow politics because I believe it is all lies, whether you label yourself left wing, right wing, conservative, liberal, or anything else.

I agree with you that the Patriot Act limits freedoms severely. But why label it a right wing's wish list? I do not get that.

I am fairly conservative, and agree with a lot of what you label "right wing" politicians, or talk show hosts state openly.

Though, I really want less government involvement in all aspects of my life. And I believe just about everyone in power today is abusing their power, and limiting our freedoms, not just "right wingers". The side you choose is like picking a poison. One smells really horrible, and will kill you quickly, and painlessly, though with a bad taste in your mouth. The other one is coated in sugar and tastes sweet, but you will die slowly and painfully.
 
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