The politics of anti-vax'ers

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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,662
26,771
136
Nope nope nope nope nope'd the hell out of here. Enjoy your autoimmune disorders!

You guys are about as group-thinky as the salem witch trials judges.

I've had all my vaccinations and would give my kid MMR, Hep B, Hib, Varicella, PV, etc etc. Just not influenza for 6 straight years. You don't think something is wrong with the recommended vaccination schedule? They just keep increasing the number of vaccines. The 1980's vaccine schedule was nice. Worked for me!

You've made fantastic claims and have yet to link to even one study supporting those claims. Do you have any medical evidence to support your theory?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Based on whose expert opinion and what scientific evidence?

He has none. Like health care in general few have any idea of what really happens, but the fact is the immune system needs to be challenged at the right times to be maximally effective, and NOT having vaccinations makes autoimmune disorders more likely through something called molecular mimicry, which I'm not going to bother to go into but has substantial evidence to back it. I'm not teaching Immunology 101 here. I was talking to my wife the other day (her background is immunology and molecular genetics) and neither one of us would be surprised if we know more than 1% of all there is in biology, but even so water is wet and the apple falls towards the ground.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Cause I do think over-vaccinating contributes to autoimmune disorders.

Another weak correlation. In fact, if you are interested, there was no link found in studies, a few listed here:

Scheller NM, Svanström H, Pasternak B, Arnheim-Dahlström L, Sundström K, Fink K, Hviid A. Quadrivalent HPV vaccination and risk of multiple sclerosis and other demyelinating diseases of the central nervous system. JAMA. 2015 Jan 6;313(1):54-61.

Grimaldi-Bensouda L, Le Guern V, Kone-Paut I, Aubrun E, Fain O, Ruel M, Machet L, Viallard JF, Magy-Bertrand N, Daugas E, Rossignol M, Abenhaim L, Costedoat-Chalumeau N; PGRx Lupus Study Group. The risk of systemic lupus erythematosus associated with vaccines: an international case-control study. Arthritis Rheumatol. 2014 Jun;66(6):1559-67.

Murdaca G, Orsi A, Spano F, et al. Influenza and pneumococcal vaccination of patients with systemic lupus erythematosus: current views upon safety and immunogenicity. Autoimmun Rev. 2013;
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Explains much, sorry for your brain damage which is on full display in this thread We'll all try to recognize your obvious mental limitations from here on out.

Have your unfounded insults made you a happier person today?

While vaccinations are extremely effective overall, they are not 100%. This is why herd immunity is important. If a vaccine is say, 90% effective, even if one person falls ill it's extremely difficult to keep passing it to new people. Since they are not 100% effective, your irresponsible decision impacts me as it makes it more likely that I will come into contact with an infected person.

Additionally, children under a certain age are too young to be vaccinated and therefore your unvaccinated children present a direct threat to them.

That's why it's our business.

Bolded is the important line. You first need a herd before you can have herd immunity. Like this thread, I don't want to be in a herd with people who are angry and hate each other.

Polls have it at around 30% of Americans believe parents should have the right to choose or not, the larger percentage being in the younger population:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...vaccinating-kids-should-be-a-parental-choice/

30% is a bit too high of a number for those in this thread who think publicly harassing one another is the answer to building a herd. I think it's only going to make that number grow larger.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
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30% is a bit too high of a number for those in this thread who think publicly harassing people is the answer. I think it's only going to make that number grow larger.

If harassing means insisting vaccinations are given before entering school, which effectively constitutes a herd, then I have no problem doing so. But there is an alternative. If a parent refuses to immunize their child for other than medical contraindications and contracts a disease they are charged with whatever negligent crimes can be found. Maybe they don't care about their family or community, but jail often causes one to reflect on one's attitude.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
If harassing means insisting vaccinations are given before entering school, which effectively constitutes a herd, then I have no problem doing so. But there is an alternative. If a parent refuses to immunize their child for other than medical contraindications and contracts a disease they are charged with whatever negligent crimes can be found. Maybe they don't care about their family or community, but jail often causes one to reflect on one's attitude.

Again, you're not building a community. You're building groups who like each other less and less. 30% overall means there are many areas across the country where you will not have 51% to create and enforce such laws. The greatest fault you make is assuming "they" don't care about their family and dehumanize them with your words.

You also specify the clause "for other than medical contraindications". Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the reason why some are against vaccines. The only difference is who is in charge of defining what a medical contraindication is and is not.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,310
136
You, as well as many others in this thread, need to learn how to read better good.

Which bit of Oyvey's posts did I mis-read exactly?

It becomes our business when their choices endanger the health and safety of everyone else.

Thats BS. If I choose not to vac my son from say the measles, how is that affecting anyone? According to you vaccers, you are vaccinated so what will my non vaccinated son do to your vaccinated son? If your son gets it then obviously the vaccines dont work.

My son is vaccinated.

You also specify the clause "for other than medical contraindications". Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the reason why some are against vaccines. The only difference is who is in charge of defining what a medical contraindication is and is not.

What like, an unproven link with autism?
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
The only difference is who is in charge of defining what a medical contraindication is and is not.
Like redefining Creationism as data driven science. That the Truth is that the Earth was created in six days, or that tigers are lemons.
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Again, you're not building a community. You're building groups who like each other less and less. 30% overall means there are many areas across the country where you will not have 51% to create and enforce such laws. The greatest fault you make is assuming "they" don't care about their family and dehumanize them with your words.

You also specify the clause "for other than medical contraindications". Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the reason why some are against vaccines. The only difference is who is in charge of defining what a medical contraindication is and is not.

Good, we can find those areas and ship them blankets until the problem solves itself.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,121
14,489
146
There's a difference between thinking vaccines are a panacea of disease resistance vs the potential for autoimmune disorders, and the types of people who think MMR single dose has thimerosal (it doesn't, see table 1).

Cause I do think over-vaccinating contributes to autoimmune disorders.

MMR has been wrongly made the scapegoat, but I don't disagree with the premise oddly enough. Too many damn vaccines. They were ready to stick me with Tdap ahead of schedule just because I didn't know off the top of my head when I had it last. No thanks. Turns out I'm not due for another 3 years once I grabbed my immunization record.

And what evidence is there to support this fantastic hypothesis?

You need to becareful arguing with Overvolt. As you can see below about half his posts are covered in little dots. It appears he has a raging case of forum measles. It might be contagious. ()

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
You need to becareful arguing with Overvolt. As you can see below about half his posts are covered in little dots. It appears he has a raging case of forum measles. It might be contagious. ()

Many intelligent people who consider themselves scientifically learned fail at things medical and biological. It's much more complex than rocket science
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
cubby1223 said:
So you're saying that anything someone does that has the potential to kill you, is wrong and you hate them for it.

Hope you don't have any friends who like to drive!?
What part about we were on the verge of eradicating these diseases forever do you not understand?
Not to mention: what part of "Driving provides huge, huge benefits that more than compensate for the injuries and deaths it causes, whereas measles kills and injures without ANY compensating benefit" does he not understand?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Just regarding measles (and not her other fantastical ideas about disease)

(note:this is world wide)

Key facts


  • Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
  • In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
  • Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
  • In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
  • During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

And this:

"Measles is the greatest vaccine-preventable killer of children in the world today and the eighth leading cause of death among persons of all ages worldwide"

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long

Not to mention that a further 1 in 1000 children will become deaf or brain-damaged due to acute measles encephalitis. Not to mention that another 1 in 10,000 children will develop subacute sclerosing panencephalitis several years after "recovering" from measles:
Characterized by a history of primary measles infection usually before the age of 2 years, followed by several asymptomatic years (6–15 on average), and then gradual, progressive psychoneurological deterioration, consisting of personality change, seizures, myoclonus, ataxia, photosensitivity, ocular abnormalities, spasticity, and coma.
If not identified and treated early enough in the course of the disease, it is uniformly fatal.

I'm sure that if we were to show some videos of comatose or convulsing children, with their parents weeping and bemoaning the un-vaccinated state of their child, we might change a few minds in the anti-vax crowd.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Many intelligent people who consider themselves scientifically learned fail at things medical and biological. It's much more complex than rocket science

Another weak correlation. In fact, if you are interested, there was no link found in studies, a few listed here:

Scheller NM, Svanström H, Pasternak B, Arnheim-Dahlström L, Sundström K, Fink K, Hviid A. Quadrivalent HPV vaccination and risk of multiple sclerosis and other demyelinating diseases of the central nervous system. JAMA. 2015 Jan 6;313(1):54-61.

Grimaldi-Bensouda L, Le Guern V, Kone-Paut I, Aubrun E, Fain O, Ruel M, Machet L, Viallard JF, Magy-Bertrand N, Daugas E, Rossignol M, Abenhaim L, Costedoat-Chalumeau N; PGRx Lupus Study Group. The risk of systemic lupus erythematosus associated with vaccines: an international case-control study. Arthritis Rheumatol. 2014 Jun;66(6):1559-67.

Murdaca G, Orsi A, Spano F, et al. Influenza and pneumococcal vaccination of patients with systemic lupus erythematosus: current views upon safety and immunogenicity. Autoimmun Rev. 2013;



Its specific to the antigen, and also genetics. Just like rheumatic fever is from cross reactivity resulting from strep throat, in those genetically susceptible, I think this is the basis for (some) autoimmune disorders. It seems the younger you are, the easier it is to develop an autoimmune disorder.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2665673/

Its VERY specific.

--Infection with S. pyogenes can lead to inflammation of the heart

--Chagas disease is caused by infection with the protozoan parasite T. cruzi[51,52]; 10–30% of infected individuals develop the disease

--Herpetic stromal keratitis (HSK) is caused by corneal infection by herpes simplex virus (HSV) and can lead to blindness

--Uveitis is a group of intra-ocular inflammatory diseases that are potentially blinding [147]. It is believed that many subgroups of this disease are autoimmune-mediated, in part because of the strong association with certain HLA alleles <-- interestingly enough, ebola survivors seem prone to this one, meaning that this would be the side effect to check for in a potential ebola vaccine.

-- Type I diabetes (T1D) results from autoimmune destruction of pancreatic cells by autoreactive T cells and/or inflammatory cytokines. Although there is a definite genetic component to T1D, the concordance rate in monozygotic twins is only approximately 40% [155,156], and epidemiological evidence suggests that pathogens play a role in development. Many different viruses have been associated with T1D development [157]. Studies showed a higher incidence of T1D in people with congenital rubella <-- INTERESTING don't you think? I would demand a study looking for a link between TID and MMR. THATS how this works. Not just throw shit at the wall randomly for random auto immune disorder/vaccine pairs.

--Patients infected with Mycoplasma pneumoniae prior to the development of GBS often have antibodies to galactocerebroside. These antibodies can cross-react with glycolipids on M. pneumoniae.

-- Despite the difficulty in linking MS to any one pathogen, the amount of epidemiological evidence reported over the years shows that environmental factors play a strong role in disease development, and suggests that a cumulative lifetime exposure to certain microorganisms can influence disease development

SO...


If you take "Quadrivalent HPV vaccination and risk of multiple sclerosis and other demyelinating diseases of the central nervous system." and find no correlation it doesn't much matter, to be honest. You simply seem to be rolling the dice everytime you force an immune response. Its very specific between the antigen and the potential for autoimmunity in a particular tissue.

The HPV antibody doesn't attack myelin, congratulations. MS seems to be mediated more by toxins combined with infection, rather than a specific cross reactivity due to the multitude of pathogens that can trigger it. See? Easy. MS is likely one of the exceptions here.

I disagree with the thinking that vaccines are this risk-free panacea of health, so of course more of them, sooner, closer together, perhaps two boosters for good measure, etc, is always good, no matter what.

Because we just have such a solid understanding of the immune system, obviously. What with the decline in autoimmune disorders we are witnessing. /sarc
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Because we just have such a solid understanding of the immune system, obviously. What with the decline in autoimmune disorders we are witnessing. /sarc

Why would we see a decline in autoimmune diseases when we are realizing that improper immune responses underlie more and more conditions? Heaven help us when folks realize what inflammatory states are responsible for.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
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