The politics of anti-vax'ers

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Jodell88

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2007
8,762
30
91
You guys arguing over measles. I'm waiting for polio to make a return personally.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
The onus is on YOU to show anything about the danger/inefficacy of vaccines remotely scientifically credible on anything approaching the scale and quality of studies and hard science proving just the opposite.



I just realized when I read your response that this thread has become just like the infamous 2014 Gasoline Price Forecast thread. More than a few present reality, facts, studies...all swatted aside by one while clamping hands over ears, spouting poorly understood nonsense, never presenting anything resembling research proving the espoused side. Sigh....guess it had to happen.

Well its just the onus probandi & ab auctoritate fallacies.

In reality Buzzfeed, Huffpo, etc has tricked everyone into thinking there is a vaccine crisis when the vaccination rate is 91% anyway. This has turned anyone with even the slightest reservations about vaccines into the boogeyman. Thus far it seems to be overvolt 150, P&N ignorant masses 0, thereabouts. By my count anyway. Welcome to the losers club. I'm going to spread out my kids vaccination schedule a little and skip the flu shots portion. Oh the horror.

Nobody bothered to ask outright, of course, because once I didn't go along with the facebook/huffpo/buzzfeed "anti-vaxxer" bashing a bajillion people feel entitled to repost something they read last week on the internet like they've been working in science for 10 years. Everyone meekly dropped out of the argument except an actual pediatrician, it would seem.

VAERS is a bit of a joke of self-reported nonsense anyway .
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136
Oh wow

<more goalpost shifting snipped>

If you want to have a sensible discussion, don't bother constructing straw men or attempt to shift the argument away from countering points you've made. If some random person somewhere on the Internet claimed that vaccine schedules were infallible, that person is stupid. When you then attempt to reference such an incident to support your argument, it looks like you're attempting to de-rail the discussion.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
If you want to have a sensible discussion, don't bother constructing straw men or attempt to shift the argument away from countering points you've made. If some random person somewhere on the Internet claimed that vaccine schedules were infallible, that person is stupid. When you then attempt to reference such an incident to support your argument, it looks like you're attempting to de-rail the discussion.

So you'd rather go back to the skyrocketing autoimmune disorders and no one knows why its happening so I'd prefer a more 1980's vaccine schedule like the one I had just to be sure?

Developing GBS from the flu vaccine is about as direct an autoimmune disorder as you can get from a vaccine. Its even on the package insert AFAIK. Its also incredibly rare.

Anywho this would be the mechanism that you guys swear up and down doesn't exist.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0008382

Don't get a vaccine when you're already sick. Got that one down pat.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136
So you'd rather go back to the skyrocketing autoimmune disorders and no one knows why its happening so I'd prefer a more 1980's vaccine schedule like the one I had just to be sure?

So your argument here is "I believe the rate of autoimmune disorders being diagnosed is skyrocketing" (I wouldn't use that adjective but I'm sure it's increasing, likely due to the medical profession's increasing understanding of the topic), "no-one knows why it's happening so I'm going to spin the bottle and therefore decide to be against current vaccine schedules!".

Have you applied your argument to a tonne of other things that have changed since the eighties? Perhaps you also wish to return to using leaded petrol? Ban bottled water?

Making such a claim without any evidence only can reasonably result in a shrug and the question "couldn't it be a million other things as well?".
 
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oobydoobydoo

Senior member
Nov 14, 2014
261
0
0
There is no reasonable argument for not vaccinating children. That is why this OverVolt person keeps changing the subject and using strawmen. He appears to be on the wrong forum considering most of us actually know enough about science to understand that vaccinations are necessary for the safety of babies and those that can't be immunized.


Overvolt, do you dictate your posts to your personal "helper"? Many mentally challenged people are given social workers and assistants to help them deal with thing they don't understand. My guess is Overvolt is one of these handicapped individuals, and he uses his assistant to post. So he doesn't understand technology in the same we do, but that's ok.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136
Overvolt, do you dictate your posts to your personal "helper"? Many mentally challenged people are given social workers and assistants to help them deal with thing they don't understand. My guess is Overvolt is one of these handicapped individuals, and he uses his assistant to post. So he doesn't understand technology in the same we do, but that's ok.

 
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OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
There is no reasonable argument for not vaccinating children. That is why this OverVolt person keeps changing the subject and using strawmen. He appears to be on the wrong forum considering most of us actually know enough about science to understand that vaccinations are necessary for the safety of babies and those that can't be immunized.


Overvolt, do you dictate your posts to your personal "helper"? Many mentally challenged people are given social workers and assistants to help them deal with thing they don't understand. My guess is Overvolt is one of these handicapped individuals, and he uses his assistant to post. So he doesn't understand technology in the same we do, but that's ok.

151 I guess.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
So your argument here is "I believe the rate of autoimmune disorders being diagnosed is skyrocketing" (I wouldn't use that adjective but I'm sure it's increasing, likely due to the medical profession's increasing understanding of the topic), "no-one knows why it's happening so I'm going to spin the bottle and therefore decide to be against current vaccine schedules!".

Have you applied your argument to a tonne of other things that have changed since the eighties? Perhaps you also wish to return to using leaded petrol? Ban bottled water?

Making such a claim without any evidence only can reasonably result in a shrug and the question "couldn't it be a million other things as well?".

Oh please what a way to sugar coat it.

http://www.aarda.org/autoimmune-information/autoimmune-statistics/

NIH estimates up to 23.5 million Americans* have an AD. In comparison, cancer affects up to 9 million and heart disease up to 22 million.

And as they are saying, thats a low ball if you limit it to the more classical autoimmune diseases. By splitting the diseases up into every little teeny tiny category it really masks the problem. All combined they'd be up there with heart disease and cancer for mortality I'd suspect. Its the least understood system so I just roll my eyes and go puhhleeezzzzzeeeee whenever someone makes an appeal to medical authority on the subject because they explicitly state that they don't know the answer.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
You missed the point. It doesn't matter if it's even a billion people a day are being diagnosed with autoimmune disorders, saying "we should return to vaccine schedules used in the eighties to be sure it's not that" has about as much scientific basis as claiming that witches must be responsible.

It seems... reasonable to me... so whatever. At least until there is a credible causal link established by medical science that explains the rise in autoimmune disorders that refutes it i'd err on the side of caution personally.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,444
9,348
136
So has anyone gone through the thread, picked out the anti vaxxers and correlated that against their posted political leanings?

I got to post #5 and #6 then lost interest, so I'm gonna call it a wash.

I know a few antivaxxers in my personal life and I'd call their politics as "batshit insane all over the place depending on what conspiracy theory is popular at the moment". I suppose if I had to pin them down (which would be nice if I could do that literally) they would be part of the whacko fringe of the libertarian movement.
In my professional life most of the antivaxxers are just lazy, stupid people with no real political leanings.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136
It seems... reasonable to me... so whatever. At least until there is a credible causal link established by medical science that explains the rise in autoimmune disorders that refutes it i'd err on the side of caution personally.

That's not a viable course of action when millions/billions of people are involved. If you decide to be "cautious" without any scientific merit, then a tonne of other "cautious" actions have just as much merit. Stop using wifi! Stop drinking tap water and drink it from a lake! Don't take any medicine!

It took one study linking vaccines to autism and Crohns that created this complete PR mess in the first place, and even though a multitude of further studies on the point have not found any evidence to back up the claims of the first study (ie. a scientific theory must be reproducible to have any merit), public confidence in vaccines has been seriously affected.

Imagine therefore what would happen if the scientific community rallied around a course of action (such as reverting to eighties style vaccine schedules), without any evidence? Excepting the one-in-a-billion possibility that it just so happened to be the correct course of action, I'm pretty sure that public confidence in science would be so utterly undermined that the acceptance of anything derived from medical science would at best peddle backwards for at least a few generations or at worst the public would reject science and technology utterly. There would also be claims that the scientific community must have evidence/proof that modern vaccines have been harming the public but are suppressing them, and since one can't prove that something doesn't exist yet they made claims without evidence, the scientific community would be completely defenceless. Quack/witch doctors would also start coming out of the woodwork in droves.

Challenging what is considered to be fact in the scientific community is important, but you're attempting to challenge it without any evidence, which is damaging and (to any positive extent) pointless.
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,444
9,348
136
It seems... reasonable to me... so whatever. At least until there is a credible causal link established by medical science that explains the rise in autoimmune disorders that refutes it i'd err on the side of caution personally.

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
It seems... reasonable to me... so whatever. At least until there is a credible causal link established by medical science that explains the rise in autoimmune disorders that refutes it i'd err on the side of caution personally.

The only reason I'm still in this is because you propose to err on the side of a greater potential harm to a child and I don't care if it's your own.

You have made this comment in another thread

You can get autoimmune disorders from vaccines OR the disease itself. There is evidence that autism is an autoimmune disorder for some people.

That is an astounding statement. "You can get autoimmune disorders from vaccines". Why is that true? Because you think so without any understanding of the topic. You further state that the criteria isn't science, but absolute perfect knowledge that even in principle science nor any other method of understanding can provide. You require proving the negative. You refuse to distinguish the difference between tested vaccines (which are not only subject to clinical trials, but mandatory potential complication reporting through VAERS. If autoimmune disease was linked to vaccines it would have shown up. This rather extraordinary means of continual monitoring cannot remotely demonstrate that a connection exists. As others have pointed out there is an equally valid statistical connection between bizarre correlations and autoimmune diseases. "Thinking" something into existence isn't a scientifically demonstrable process. You also act as if schedules are arbitrary and fixed, making a clear distinction between now and 30 or 40 years ago. No, they are constantly evolving. You can read up on that here.

Getting back to your personal scientific requirements, you conflate scientific knowledge sufficient to make determinations of causality in specific cases with complete inerrant knowledge while not having the background to make a legitimate judgement on your own. Likewise I don't have enough background in quantum physics and math to argue with physicists. My "feeling" or "thinking" they are all wrong would be illogical, and the field is hardly settled.

Since the perfection of knowledge is what you require, then I submit that you shouldn't use electricity because the practical theories are "wrong". When you drill down into reality the engineers are using formulas based people like Maxwell, and he is "wrong". Why? Because he might be 99.99999999 correct in predicting a value, but that's not 100% because he didn't know about quantum physics. Know what? Things work anyway, because he was not in fact "wrong", his knowledge was incomplete, but for most practical purposes he was sufficiently correct. We don't have a complete knowledge of gravity. Newton, Einstein, everyone is wrong by your criteria and therefore dismissible by "the think method" of Harold Hill. No, science doesn't work that way.

My father had a tongue in cheek saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up". Well that is still true. We're not going to change your mind and you are going to put your children at increased risk based on your preference, but that is not based on any demonstrably valid reasoning process.

All knowledge is incomplete, but that does not keep the apple from falling nor does it cause vaccines to cause disease because the word "immune" happens to be involved.

You have the legal right to be irresponsible. You won't change your mind because it's more important that you validate your beliefs than properly protect your children. Your ego is more important than your kids.

Maybe, just maybe, someone will change their opinions over this discussion but that's not likely. Even so the process of doing so is cathartic for some of us. We did what we could.
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
2
41
There is so much misinformation about being Pro vaccine as much as there is against getting any vaccine.

The funny part is that so far from my readings/understanding is both sides are correct.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

A child who was not autistic but given 9 vaccines on the same day did become autistic.

People do not become autistic over night people!
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
2
41
The only reason I'm still in this is because you propose to err on the side of a greater potential harm to a child and I don't care if it's your own.

You have made this comment in another thread



That is an astounding statement. "You can get autoimmune disorders from vaccines". Why is that true? Because you think so without any understanding of the topic. You further state that the criteria isn't science, but absolute perfect knowledge that even in principle science nor any other method of understanding can provide. You require proving the negative. You refuse to distinguish the difference between tested vaccines (which are not only subject to clinical trials, but mandatory potential complication reporting through VAERS. If autoimmune disease was linked to vaccines it would have shown up. This rather extraordinary means of continual monitoring cannot remotely demonstrate that a connection exists. As others have pointed out there is an equally valid statistical connection between bizarre correlations and autoimmune diseases. "Thinking" something into existence isn't a scientifically demonstrable process. You also act as if schedules are arbitrary and fixed, making a clear distinction between now and 30 or 40 years ago. No, they are constantly evolving. You can read up on that here.

Getting back to your personal scientific requirements, you conflate scientific knowledge sufficient to make determinations of causality in specific cases with complete inerrant knowledge while not having the background to make a legitimate judgement on your own. Likewise I don't have enough background in quantum physics and math to argue with physicists. My "feeling" or "thinking" they are all wrong would be illogical, and the field is hardly settled.

Since the perfection of knowledge is what you require, then I submit that you shouldn't use electricity because the practical theories are "wrong". When you drill down into reality the engineers are using formulas based people like Maxwell, and he is "wrong". Why? Because he might be 99.99999999 correct in predicting a value, but that's not 100% because he didn't know about quantum physics. Know what? Things work anyway, because he was not in fact "wrong", his knowledge was incomplete, but for most practical purposes he was sufficiently correct. We don't have a complete knowledge of gravity. Newton, Einstein, everyone is wrong by your criteria and therefore dismissible by "the think method" of Harold Hill. No, science doesn't work that way.

My father had a tongue in cheek saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up". Well that is still true. We're not going to change your mind and you are going to put your children at increased risk based on your preference, but that is not based on any demonstrably valid reasoning process.

All knowledge is incomplete, but that does not keep the apple from falling nor does it cause vaccines to cause disease because the word "immune" happens to be involved.

You have the legal right to be irresponsible. You won't change your mind because it's more important that you validate your beliefs than properly protect your children. Your ego is more important than your kids.

Maybe, just maybe, someone will change their opinions over this discussion but that's not likely. Even so the process of doing so is cathartic for some of us. We did what we could.

Causality when there was not cause before the vaccine injection thus proving the vaccine WAS the cause.

Wow your mumbojumbo double talk to defend vaccinations at any and all costs is like listening to a neocon about israel no matter how much of a hell hole it really is.

If you have a child and your child is 9 years old you know perfectly well your child is of sound mind and body and healthy as the most healthy person who is not sick in the slightest and you take your child for vaccination and the next day your child just mumbles or does not talk at all....... using your logic you would still be supportive of vaccination and would not worry that your child can not talk anymore and attribute it to some other psychological factor? Elucidate your thoughts!
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
2
41
"All knowledge is incomplete, but that does not keep the apple from falling nor does it cause vaccines to cause disease because the word "immune" happens to be involved. "
NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE IMMUNE TO VACCINES!
Getting a vaccine does not make one fully immune and the case studies have proven that!
You post your information as if vaccines are ironclad immunity HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

Even when that vaccine has human and animal blood parts in it and has partial active viruses residing in the vaccine swimming along with mercury.


Oh here is an Idea.... let me get a needle and let me inject a 20 CC of mercury into your blood system. You would like that wouldn't you!
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136

Wow, if you are going to deny vaccines, at least go all-out batshit crazy like that link and try to claim that vaccines don't even prevent disease. Its funny how they don't even talk about polio... but who cares, it is moronic links like that which represent the incredible amount of anti-science that rivals flat-Earthers and Jesus-riding Dinosaur creationists.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
Even when that vaccine has human and animal blood parts in it and has partial active viruses residing in the vaccine swimming along with mercury.

Oh here is an Idea.... let me get a needle and let me inject a 20 CC of mercury into your blood system. You would like that wouldn't you!

Which vaccine contains "20 cc" of mercury." The fact you don't even know that a vaccine doesn't even contain 20 cc of fluid shows how moronic these statements are.
 

abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
902
136
It seems... reasonable to me... so whatever. At least until there is a credible causal link established by medical science that explains the rise in autoimmune disorders that refutes it i'd err on the side of caution personally.

For someone who goes around bragging that somehow he's winning in this thread... I'm still waiting for you to respond to my posts, but the sad fact is that you've run and hid from them because your horrible logic and shifting of arguments can't stand any kind of logical analysis. It is quite hiliarious.

You've gone from vaccines are definitely causing autoimmune disease to "well some of those studies showing no link don't count, to now there "isn't a credible" link, but we should err on the side of caution when there is zero evidence behind your dumb statements.

By your absurd logic, we should also ban bottled water because the rise of bottled water consumption corresponds to the rise of autoimmune disease, and until we have credible evidence we should take the moronic approach and ban it too? We need dirty water because of the hygiene hypothesis, right?

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Which vaccine contains "20 cc" of mercury." The fact you don't even know that a vaccine doesn't even contain 20 cc of fluid shows how moronic these statements are.

There are degrees. OverVolt isn't stupid, however as Moonbeam notes ego can be a problem. I believe that he is intellectually capable of understanding that being wrong and doing right is quite a different thing than insisting on being right and doing wrong. The question isn't raw intelligence, it's wisdom and they are distinctly different. Time will tell.

As for "Mr. 20cc" he's either trolling or incapable of processing reality or both. I won't bother with him.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
I am curious about something. How many people here who are pro-vaccine have been getting their 10 year booster shots for Tetanus, Pertussis, and Diphtheria?

We have been having large outbreaks in this area, and one reason is many adults just don't get booster shoots.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136
There is so much misinformation about being Pro vaccine as much as there is against getting any vaccine.

The funny part is that so far from my readings/understanding is both sides are correct.

https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

A child who was not autistic but given 9 vaccines on the same day did become autistic.

People do not become autistic over night people!

A good vague offensive strategy: Say people are wrong, but don't specify where, then bring up one example of a story you read on some blog somewhere to support your argument.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,608
11,311
136
I am curious about something. How many people here who are pro-vaccine have been getting their 10 year booster shots for Tetanus, Pertussis, and Diphtheria?

We have been having large outbreaks in this area, and one reason is many adults just don't get booster shoots.

The official advice in the UK on the topic:
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tetanus/Pages/Introduction.aspx

But then, maybe different vaccines are in use with different dosages over time?
 
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