The problem with execution drugs lately, over shadowed by an even bigger problem

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
1
0
State Executioners: Untrained, Incompetent, and "Complete Idiots" say some experts



Last week's botched execution of Clayton Lockett in Oklahoma has heightened the debate over lethal injection. The United States has encountered a shortage of the drugs historically used in capital punishment as pharmaceutical companies have largely refused to make them, export them, or sell them to prisons for use in executions. Death row inmates have filed dozens of challenges to the lethal injection protocols that states have sought to keep secret. Meanwhile, states are trying ever more desperate measures to procure the old drugs or cook up new cocktails to try on inmates.

But as Lockett's torturous execution showed, the drugs are only part of the problem. In his case, prison staff apparently failed to properly insert the IV into his femoral artery—a procedure that requires professional medical skills—and the drugs were injected into soft tissue rather than the bloodstream, leaving him writhing in pain and forcing officials to halt the execution. (He ended up dying of a heart attack, anyway.)

Historically, lethal injection has been plagued with problems just like those that occurred in Lockett's case, and they are due in large part to the incompetence of the people charged with administering the deadly drugs. Physicians have mostly left the field of capital punishment; the American Medical Association and other professional groups consider it highly unethical for doctors to assist with executions. As a result, the people willing to do the dirty work aren't always at the top of their fields, or even specifically trained in the jobs they're supposed to do. As Dr. Jay Chapman, the Oklahoma coroner who essentially created the modern lethal injection protocol, observed in the New York Times in 2007, "It never occurred to me when we set this up that we'd have complete idiots administering the drugs."

States typically have had few requirements for those serving on an execution team. At one point, in Florida, the only criteria was that a potential executioner be at least 18 years old. Wardens, prison guards, phlebotomists, paramedics, and nurses are sometimes in the mix. After botched executions, judges have occasionally ordered states to have a board-certified anesthesiologist involved—a requirement that tends to prompt a moratorium because few of those doctors will participate. The actual makeup of execution teams is often a state secret that officials work hard to conceal. Not surprisingly, although things often go wrong, individuals are rarely held accountable. On the rare occasions when details about execution teams are released, they only seem to confirm Chapman's observation. Here are a few examples of what's known about people who've been involved in administering lethal injections over the years.

By far the most notorious individual in the history of lethal injection, Dr. Alan Doerhoff was the dyslexic surgeon who oversaw 54 executions in Missouri, where he alone was in charge of deciding how to kill people. Doerhoff was the subject of more than 20 malpractice lawsuits during his career, and he was disciplined by the state medical board for concealing lawsuits from a hospital where he worked. Two Missouri hospitals banned him from practicing in their facilities.

The state worked for years to keep Doerhoff's identity secret. But in a legal challenge by a Missouri death row inmate, he was forced to testify and eventually was unmasked. In his testimony he admitted that his disability made it hard for him to properly combine the death drugs, which he sometimes mixed up, and that, on his own, he'd started "improvising" and reducing the amount of anesthesia given to condemned prisoners by half. Unbelievably, the federal government actually used Doerhoff to create the protocols for federal executions and to oversee them. (He reportedly oversaw the execution of Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh.)

See page five of this report for a graphic illustration of Doerhoff's handiwork on Missouri inmate Timothy Johnson—the botched IV insertion into the femoral artery is the same sort of problem that apparently occurred in the Lockett execution. Doerhoff had defended groin insertions as having "all benefit…There's no way it can fail. And no risk to the inmate."

A federal judge eventually banned Doerhoff from participating in executions in Missouri, which responded by making it a crime to reveal the identity of a current or former member of the state's execution team. Doerhoff's public exposure and track record apparently didn't prevent Arizona from hiring him to oversee an execution there in 2007.

In 2006, testimony in another federal challenge to lethal injection revealed that the execution team leader at California's San Quentin State Prison had been disciplined for smuggling illegal drugs into the facility before he was put on the team. Another team leader had been diagnosed with and was disabled by post-traumatic stress disorder, a problem hugely amplified by participating in executions.

After the botched 2005 execution of Stanley Tookie Williams in California—his vein collapsed after several unsuccessful attempts to insert an IV—the nurse responsible for the IV issues said that the execution team responded to the problems by saying "shit does happen."

In Maryland, during a legal challenge to that state's lethal-injection protocol, it was revealed that the person responsible for injecting drugs into the condemned man had been fired by a local police department after refusing to cooperate with an internal investigation. He had also been charged with poisoning and killing a bunch of neighborhood dogs. This apparently made him the perfect person to join the Maryland execution team, which also included someone who'd been suspended for spitting in inmates' food before it was given to them.

Richard Dieter, director of the Death Penalty Information Center, says that in the wake of all the litigation over their lethal-injection protocols, states have attempted to at least provide better training for the people on their execution teams. But given how few people are really interested in becoming professional killers, especially the doctors needed to make sure the process goes smoothly, botched executions are likely to continue, regardless of what sorts of drugs the states come up with.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
The real problem is we legislate the crap out of how we are allowed to execute inmates. The long drop worked for hundreds of years. Why can't we continue to do that? It costs like $500 to build and is reusable.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
The real problem is we legislate the crap out of how we are allowed to execute inmates. The long drop worked for hundreds of years. Why can't we continue to do that? It costs like $500 to build and is reusable.

Better solution: end state-sponsored murder.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
1
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We just need to get rid of the death penalty all together, and just utilize life in prison. Period.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
We live in a society, where people want others to suffer and feel pain.

The idea that someone, even during death, is being tortured makes certain folks in the country feel good and better about themselves. It's not enough that the person is being executed - but, they want the person on death row to be tortured,... and this is from people who are not even related to the victim. Heck, they probably never even lost a loved one to a murderer!

Simply put, they are ghouls. They have NO stake in what happened to the victim, other than wanting to know that a person who was responsible for a terrible act, is tortured.

It's a pretty simple question; do you want to execute, or torture murderers to death?
 

2timer

Golden Member
Apr 20, 2012
1,803
1
0
The real problem is we legislate the crap out of how we are allowed to execute inmates. The long drop worked for hundreds of years. Why can't we continue to do that? It costs like $500 to build and is reusable.

No, the problem was explained right in the article title, the executioner was an incompetent idiot who botched the execution by missing the vein and injecting into the soft tissue. It's really simple, no need to complicate it.
 
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cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
The compromise that has been pushed to make an execution painless to satisfy the squeamish has created this problem.

There are multiple ways to execute a person that are swift and require no extensive medical training.

But doing so will not appease those that feel sorry for one that had no remorse for another.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
1
0
There are far too many reasons for getting rid of the death penalty all together than keeping it. But as was stated before people really like the "torture, maim, make him/her hurt" idea, because it is a psychopathic need to see them suffer.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
No, the problem was explained right in the article title, the executioner was an incompetent idiot who botched the execution by missing the vein and injecting into the soft tissue. It's really simple, no need to complicate it.

And, if we didn't have people crying about executions, we wouldn't need medical professionals to give an injection of some ridiculous cocktail of chemicals. The long drop is literally idiot proof. They stand on a platform and get a rope around their neck. Any moron can pull a lever.

And, missing the vein is something nurses, doctors, blood donor center workers, etc do ALL the time. The only reason people cry about it here is because someone who took the life of another suffered a little bit. Cry me a river, please.


I am okay with the higher costs in defending and appeal process for death penalty cases (because, it helps insure we put to death those which are guilty with the smallest amount of error possible in our system).

We already have a system set up to punish, not rehabilitate. The most effective punishment is to remove these scumbags from society.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,084
1,505
126
Better solution: end state-sponsored murder.

One thing I will never understand is why there are those on the right who claim to be all about small government but support giving the government the power to legally kill its citizens.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
Cheap and effective death is as simple as seppuku. It would also allow inmates to regain their honor.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
We just need to get rid of the death penalty all together, and just utilize life in prison. Period.

Well at least until to the same people who object to the death penalty instead start working to eliminate life in prison

The top human rights court in Europe ruled Tuesday that a prison sentence of life without parole is inhuman and degrading treatment, and violates the European Convention of Human Rights. The 16-1 ruling calls into question the life sentences of three men convicted of murder in the United Kingdom, holding that inmates must have some opportunity for their sentences to be reviewed and some prospect for release.

Life without parole is a common sentence in the United States, particularly as an alternative to the death penalty as states abolish or limit its use. But as the human rights panel points out, the punishment is significantly less common Europe, with nine countries having no life terms at all, and the majority of others having “a dedicated mechanism for reviewing the sentence after the prisoner has served a certain minimum period fixed by law.” Spain, Germany, and France have already deemed life without parole unconstitutional. No European Union member country has the death penalty, and abolition of the death penalty is a precondition for becoming a member of the European Union.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...-prison-without-parole-inhuman-and-degrading/
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
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One thing I will never understand is why there are those on the right who claim to be all about small government but support giving the government the power to legally kill its citizens.

Because the citizens are made up of "undesirables".

It has nothing to do with justice - it's waiting for someone you don't like to do something bad and then cheer when they get executed.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
And, if we didn't have people crying about executions, we wouldn't need medical professionals to give an injection of some ridiculous cocktail of chemicals. The long drop is literally idiot proof. They stand on a platform and get a rope around their neck. Any moron can pull a lever.

I don't think that hanging is as idiot proof as you may think. If you don't get the rope length right you can have some awkward consequences.

Guillotine is where its at for simple, effective, foolproof execution.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
We live in a society, where people want others to suffer and feel pain.

The idea that someone, even during death, is being tortured makes certain folks in the country feel good and better about themselves. It's not enough that the person is being executed - but, they want the person on death row to be tortured,... and this is from people who are not even related to the victim. Heck, they probably never even lost a loved one to a murderer!

It has nothing to do with justice - it's waiting for someone you don't like to do something bad and then cheer when they get executed.

And? Would you please get to your point? You act like some murderer taking a long time to die is a bad thing?

What is it with you and personal responsibility? The person on death row made a choice. They knew what the punishment would be for those choices.

If you do not like the punishment, do not do the crime. Take responsibility for your actions.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
I don't think that hanging is as idiot proof as you may think. If you don't get the rope length right you can have some awkward consequences.

Guillotine is where its at for simple, effective, foolproof execution.

I looked it up, and you can decapitate someone if you incorrectly calculate the drop length (too far of a drop). But, it is based on height and weight, so a simple chart could be made up and a rope printed with the length markers on it used.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
And? Would you please get to your point? You act like some murderer taking a long time to die is a bad thing?

What is it with you and personal responsibility? The person on death row made a choice. They knew what the punishment would be for those choices.

If you do not like the punishment, do not do the crime. Take responsibility for your actions.

You cut out and did not answer my point;

It's a pretty simple question; do you want to execute, or torture murderers to death?

So, answer it.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
You cut out and did not answer my point;

It's a pretty simple question; do you want to execute, or torture murderers to death?

So, answer it.

Torture sounds good to me.

But for some reason our founding fathers frowned on that kind of treatment.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
You cut out and did not answer my point;

It's a pretty simple question; do you want to execute, or torture murderers to death?

So, answer it.

You are conflating execution with torture, while not realizing keeping a man in a cage for 60 years is also torture.


Execution, by a means only necessary enough to end the life, is the most humane punishment for someone who has taken the life of another. They cannot make up for that, as nothing will bring the back the life they have taken. They can live, in a cage either filled with remorse or not for the rest of their lives, be set free into society, or terminated.

Nobody is suggesting we flay them to death.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
Torture sounds good to me.

But for some reason our founding fathers frowned on that kind of treatment.

Not a problem - you can find plenty of countries that are OK with torture.

Let us know when you move to North Korea, Iran or Eygpt. We'll take care of your chickens for you (we'll BBQ them while celebrating your departure).
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
One thing I will never understand is why there are those on the right who claim to be all about small government but support giving the government the power to legally kill its citizens.

Because there are two options, grant the government the power to kill selected criminals, or grant the government the power to collect more taxes to pay for lifelong shelter and care of same selected criminals. We pick the smallest option.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
The real problem is we legislate the crap out of how we are allowed to execute inmates. The long drop worked for hundreds of years. Why can't we continue to do that? It costs like $500 to build and is reusable.

Only a tiny fraction of the "cost to execute" is contributed by the actual execution. It's the appeals process leading up to the execution that burns money. And if you think we should just execute people within a few weeks of the date they're sentenced, you really need to consider the hundreds (thousands?) of people who have had their death sentences commuted or nullified as a consequence of the appeals process.
 

2timer

Golden Member
Apr 20, 2012
1,803
1
0
And, miss *and then find* the vein is something nurses, doctors, blood donor center workers, etc do ALL the time.

FTFY. After missing once, maybe twice they will find the vein... they would never inject an IV into soft tissue which is the difference between what you stated and what happened here. Have you ever heard of a private nurse or doctor injecting intravenous medicine into soft tissue? Such incompetence would have them fired or targeted by a malpractice lawsuit. I think my point is pretty clear.
 
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2timer

Golden Member
Apr 20, 2012
1,803
1
0
Not a problem - you can find plenty of countries that are OK with torture.

Let us know when you move to North Korea, Iran or Eygpt. We'll take care of your chickens for you (we'll BBQ them while celebrating your departure).

I like you. :thumbsup:

This TexasHiker is fine with demanding things of others as long as he doesn't have to do or witness them. Typical Texas attitude, all about swagger and bravado so long as the blood doesn't get on their hands.
 
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