The R9 295 thread - Reviews are in - Quiet, cooler, fast, $1500

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OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
So according to AT review, on most resolutions the 3Gb TI has a 5% lead, and at high resolutions (4k) this has a 5% lead.......

Is that really worth it over the cost of 2x 290x for identical performance?
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
It's simply a weird suite since Guild Wars 2 is quite old and not exactly known as a "high end" game, Assassins Creed 4 has it's own issues (FPS cap), COD:Ghosts is not a very good PC title (poor CF/SLI, no eyefinity support), and Batman (tessellation abuse). Now, none of these titles on their own are any issue, it's just when they make up for 4/7 titles in the suite, it's no real wonder when stuff looks weird. It just happens they reviewed every game with poor performance, ignoring easy to benchmark and more common titles like Grid 2, Bioshock, Metro:LL, Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider, or Far Cry 3. I don't think it's because TechReport has something against the card/company, it's just a rather obvious example of a poor test suite giving weird results. Using only 7 titles and then giving an average makes the results swing very easily given even one bad test.

Considering TechPowerUp showed the 295X2 having almost perfect crossfire scaling at 4K (290X = 54% of a 295X2 across all titles), it should be clear that the outlier cases on TechReport are very specific cases.

So you'll take Just Cause 2, Crysis 1, Crysis WH and Dirt 3 but suddenly GW2 is too old. GW2, the MMO that sold multi millions of copies worldwide and is still selling. But it's not a valid game. Alrighty. Are you kidding me? And tessellation abuse. I just don't know what to say except, I have no idea why you're offering up excuses for AMD's software team. Blame the party that needs blame. AMD software team. Tessellation abuse. Is that the go to nowadays? *mind blown* Are you kidding me. I can't believe I just read this. Now when NV wasn't able to get SLI in TWR2 I dont' recall an endless array of excuses. The NV fans wanted an SLI profile and didn't offer up excuses. These are good games we're talking about here, Batman: AO (IMO) and GW2. But AMD fans don't deserve crossfire scaling because. Old game. Tessellation abuse. OKAY. If you say so.

Basically, blame the party that requires blame. AMD's software team. Don't blame the website. AMD sent them a card knowing what was to be tested. AMD can either blame themselves for sending a review card to them with that knowledge and shutting the heck up, or they can ask their software team to step it up and fix these issues. End of story. Now the good thing in all this is that the hardware seems to be sound. So there is really no need for you to redirect the blame to where IT DOESNT BELONG. If AMD needs to blame someone for these games specifically, they'd have to look in the mirror. Fortunately, the two options AMD has is to either play the victim card or fix their software. I certainly they opt for the latter. Cuz like I said. The hardware is sound.
 
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Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
81
As far as Crossfire goes, AMD has an enormous backlog of titles to re-optimize. I mean, it should be done by now don't get me wrong, but XDMA Crossfire seems to be working extremely well in current popular titles so if it's just a few outliers here and there then those can wait. Multiple GPUs have never been 100% guaranteed to be functional across the board, and while Nvidia's support is better at the moment, they're not perfect either.

So according to AT review, on most resolutions the 3Gb TI has a 5% lead, and at high resolutions (4k) this has a 5% lead.......

Is that really worth it over the cost of 2x 290x for identical performance?

No, but when has a dual GPU card ever been a value choice?

And as far as value, this isn't the worst by far.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
As far as Crossfire goes, AMD has an enormous backlog of titles to re-optimize. I mean, it should be done by now don't get me wrong, but XDMA Crossfire seems to be working extremely well in current popular titles so if it's just a few outliers here and there then those can wait. Multiple GPUs have never been 100% guaranteed to be functional across the board, and while Nvidia's support is better at the moment, they're not perfect either.

Gloomy, you are correct and I agree fully. Neither party is perfect, but I do feel nvidia is better.

What I find absolutely absurd is to blame the WEBSITE or to blame the GAME. Come on man. AMD fans play these games, because they're popular and high quality games (referring to AC IV, GW2, and Batman: AO). Don't try to diminish the games or the website, ask AMD's software team to fix these things. With nvidia and TW Rome 2, we the fans asked them to fix it. We the fans enjoy the game, it's not like we said "Hey this game doesn't have SLI therefore the gameplay sucks!". It wasn't a situation of "WELL TW Rome 2 HAS TESSELLATION ABUSE" or "OLD GAME". Do you see how absurd this sounds?

Blame belongs where blame lies. Basically. AMD has made strides to improve, this I acknowledge. NOT where they need to be. I think you guys should press them to improve even more. Just my personal .02. To put the blame where it DOESN'T belong is extremely off-putting.
 
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Trust me, I realize most people don't care...

Like enthusiast that overclock their gpus. And oems that have the same bad habits. And professionals that makes gpu, powersuplies, cables or connectors. Everyone and his brother. All in this world.
Right untill today when reviews hit and you declared independence of actual wire gauge, physical connector construction and ohms law.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Obviously it's possible to pull more than spec from a PEG connector, but is it okay for long term? I mean I have pulled 500w from two 8-pin PEG + 16X PCI-E on my GTX 780, but just for benching.. I would like to know how much a 6 and 8 pin are really capable of...?

That was a peak reading. The single highest reading over the test. Average is what matters as that's more like a continuous load.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
It's simply a weird suite since Guild Wars 2 is quite old and not exactly known as a "high end" game, Assassins Creed 4 has it's own issues (FPS cap), COD:Ghosts is not a very good PC title (poor CF/SLI, no eyefinity support), and Batman (tessellation abuse). Now, none of these titles on their own are any issue, it's just when they make up for 4/7 titles in the suite, it's no real wonder when stuff looks weird. It just happens they reviewed every game with poor performance, ignoring easy to benchmark and more common titles like Grid 2, Bioshock, Metro:LL, Sleeping Dogs, Tomb Raider, or Far Cry 3. I don't think it's because TechReport has something against the card/company, it's just a rather obvious example of a poor test suite giving weird results. Using only 7 titles and then giving an average makes the results swing very easily given even one bad test.

Considering TechPowerUp showed the 295X2 having almost perfect crossfire scaling at 4K (290X = 54% of a 295X2 across all titles), it should be clear that the outlier cases on TechReport are very specific cases.

It seems you're tearing the games used down because you didn't like the results. But I could be wrong. Did any other review site use any of those games, and did you call it weird then too?
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
81
It's probably a bug anyway; DX9 frame pacing was confirmed to work in XDMA CF a while ago. And it seems to work below 4k. Seems to fall apart at 4k though:

Skyrim 2560x1440:



Skyrim 4k:




TechReport benched at 4k also. We already know XDMA has no trouble pacing at 4k. So it's an obvious bug; you guys are being extremely ridiculous.
 

96Firebird

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 2010
5,712
316
126
Right untill today when reviews hit and you declared independence of actual wire gauge, physical connector construction and ohms law.

Sorry if its over your head, I like to speak technically... Maybe one day you'll get there.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
2
0
It's probably a bug anyway; DX9 frame pacing was confirmed to work in XDMA CF a while ago. And it seems to work below 4k. Seems to fall apart at 4k though:


TechReport benched at 4k also. We already know XDMA has no trouble pacing at 4k. So it's an obvious bug; you guys are being extremely ridiculous.

FYI: DX9 frame pacing in crossfire doesn't work in eyefinity or surround resolutions even with the 290 and 290X cards. It does work in single screen resolutions. This is what Ryan Shrout at PCPer mentioned in the 290X crossfire review, and he updated after the Mantle beta's to note that it still wasn't fixed for DX9.

Whether it's fixed going forward I don't know. I think AMD is probably focused on DX11 and Mantle. This is just my personal gut feeling, but I think that AMD's software team is underfunded and stretched thin especially with the Mantle thing. That just is the way it seems. Their argument would likely be that more games will utilize DX11 going forward and that would not be incorrect. Is DX9 fixes for surround + CF warranted? It doesn't seem to be their priority, and they could probably make a semi plausible argument for that. I could be wrong though.

How do you feel about it out of curiosity? Gloomy, I applaud you for noting that these are things AMD should fix with regard to the games in the TR review (if I understood you correctly). Neither party is perfect in this respect, but we normally with these types of situations we get a glut of reasons why AMD shouldn't bother fixing their software bugs. I cannot fathom this mindset. As I mentioned earlier, NV fans pressed and pressed for a Rome 2 SLI profile. NV had reasons as to why they had difficulty, but nobody cares. Pressed the issue because NV fans enjoy that game (some of them). It wasn't a situation of "oh hey Rome 2 doesn't support SLI, that means game = terrible". The issue was pressed until NV, despite whatever difficulties were had, fixed their stuff. So on the AMD side, I think that same standard should apply. When 4 games don't properly work in crossfire, that doesn't mean the website sucks. That doesn't mean the games suck. That means AMD software needs more AMD software work.

I personally don't feel that best serves their customer base, but what do I know. I will state that the hardware on the 295x2 is sound and will continue to do so. Just as long as their software team takes that extra step, that is the next thing needed IMO.
 
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wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
It seems you're tearing the games used down because you didn't like the results. But I could be wrong. Did any other review site use any of those games, and did you call it weird then too?

For a review that seems to contradict with most of the other reviews, along with the details about the site mentioned above, why all the focus on this review?
 

Gloomy

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2010
1,469
21
81
How do you feel about it out of curiosity? Gloomy, I applaud you for noting that these are things AMD should fix with regard to the games in the TR review (if I understood you correctly). Neither party is perfect in this respect, but we normally with these types of situations we get a glut of reasons why AMD shouldn't bother fixing their software bugs. I personally don't feel that best serves their customer base, but what do I know.

I think there's no excuse for it to be honest. But 4k frame pacing in DX9 is such a small slice atm that it doesn't really matter whether there's an excuse or not. It's just irrelevant right now. AMD doesn't need an excuse. It doesn't matter outside of arguments in forums.

I think it makes them look bad though and should continue to make them look bad until they fix it. Especially since they're pitching this as a 4k gaming card...
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Sorry if its over your head, I like to speak technically... Maybe one day you'll get there.

Never understand your Hobbit 2 times safety margin that can not be explained in numbers but only feelings. If i with the right setup must stay within 975w - then i can stay within specs using even a single 8pin (450+75). Now that is just for kids. Because who have not left their warrenty long time ago oc their gear ?

Running 2pcx 295x2 on one 8pin that would be something for a starter. Thats when the fun starts and the cables get that nice warm temperature and good smell. The smell of enthusiasm. The apreciation of progress and going to the limit. Thats modding when you have to alter your ps. Lol.

(i once designed and constructed my own power amp with a 560A 36V peak capacity lol that was tough s..t for sure)
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
For a review that seems to contradict with most of the other reviews, along with the details about the site mentioned above, why all the focus on this review?

Because this review looked into frame latency and unless I'm mistaken, no others did.
 

Gikaseixas

Platinum Member
Jul 1, 2004
2,836
218
106
Because this review looked into frame latency and unless I'm mistaken, no others did.

You have another great review to talk about Keys. It's from none other than PCper
Like someone else asked: why only focus on this one? I know it suits some people agendas but c'mon guys.

Edit: the card runs cooler, just as fast as top SLI or CF configs, it's not noisy, etc. Now i ask, isn't it good enough for you?
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
71
So nvidia's new "performance driver" just added an SLI profile to TWR2 and raised the max temp to 88C. Very clever, seems to have fooled everyone.

As for the card. This a Dual GPU card I would buy.

Crossfire profiles? Do you know how many games don't have an SLI profile? I bet you don't since the only game you can mention is TWR2. There are metric crap ton of games that niether nVidia nor AMD have a profile for. The games nvidia has a profile for and vice versa.

Some games are just no AFR friendly. Like COH2 so you need help from devs too. Anyone remember Titanfall had to patch in multi-GPU support.

Whatever though. I planned on getting 2 more 290s for my 4K display, but I might just sell them and get a pair of these as they would be perfect since hot air is not a problem at all.
 

sushiwarrior

Senior member
Mar 17, 2010
738
0
71
So you'll take Just Cause 2, Crysis 1, Crysis WH and Dirt 3 but suddenly GW2 is too old. GW2, the MMO that sold multi millions of copies worldwide and is still selling. But it's not a valid game. Alrighty. Are you kidding me? And tessellation abuse. I just don't know what to say except, I have no idea why you're offering up excuses for AMD's software team. Blame the party that needs blame. AMD software team. Tessellation abuse. Is that the go to nowadays? *mind blown* Are you kidding me. I can't believe I just read this.

No, those are all horribly outdated titles. I just gave a list of reasonable alternative titles that was longer than the amount of titles that TechReport even tested.

Now when NV wasn't able to get SLI in TWR2 I dont' recall an endless array of excuses. The NV fans wanted an SLI profile and didn't offer up excuses. These are good games we're talking about here, Batman: AO (IMO) and GW2. But AMD fans don't deserve crossfire scaling because. Old game. Tessellation abuse. OKAY. If you say so.

Basically, blame the party that requires blame. AMD's software team. Don't blame the website. AMD sent them a card knowing what was to be tested. AMD can either blame themselves for sending a review card to them with that knowledge and shutting the heck up, or they can ask their software team to step it up and fix these issues. End of story. Now the good thing in all this is that the hardware seems to be sound. So there is really no need for you to redirect the blame to where IT DOESNT BELONG. If AMD needs to blame someone for these games specifically, they'd have to look in the mirror. Fortunately, the two options AMD has is to either play the victim card or fix their software. I certainly they opt for the latter. Cuz like I said. The hardware is sound.

TWR2 SLI profile may look good on benchmarks but Anandtech had this to say about the game

In the case of Rome II NVIDIA’s previous drivers were incapable of getting good multi-GPU scaling out of the game, and with R337 they have apparently finally surmounted Rome’s AFR-unfriendly nature. However it should be noted that for the moment Rome II is suffering from (or causing) graphical glitches on both NVIDIA and AMD multi-GPU setups, so both vendors still have some work to do when it comes to Rome II.

So sure, they have an SLI profile, but it's still a bad experience on both sides, maybe this should point to the fact that the problem doesn't lie with the graphics drivers (from AMD or Nvidia) but rather the game engine?

Gloomy, you are correct and I agree fully. Neither party is perfect, but I do feel nvidia is better.

What I find absolutely absurd is to blame the WEBSITE or to blame the GAME. Come on man. AMD fans play these games, because they're popular and high quality games (referring to AC IV, GW2, and Batman: AO). Don't try to diminish the games or the website, ask AMD's software team to fix these things. With nvidia and TW Rome 2, we the fans asked them to fix it. We the fans enjoy the game, it's not like we said "Hey this game doesn't have SLI therefore the gameplay sucks!". It wasn't a situation of "WELL TW Rome 2 HAS TESSELLATION ABUSE" or "OLD GAME". Do you see how absurd this sounds?

Blame belongs where blame lies. Basically. AMD has made strides to improve, this I acknowledge. NOT where they need to be. I think you guys should press them to improve even more. Just my personal .02. To put the blame where it DOESN'T belong is extremely off-putting.

I didn't say anything about Nvidia not being better, what I specifically said was that TR happened to have a tiny test suite filled almost completely with titles that are outlier cases. Hence what I'm saying is it is a poor review since it isn't comprehensive or even remotely self-aware about the fact that the test suite is poor. Think about it like a scientific study, something like this would get torn to shreds.

And Re: Tessellation abuse, it's something that's been brought up before in articles like this. I agree with their point - yes, Nvidia has better performance at the end of the day, but it isn't because of poor software support like you are claiming (you're literally going on about how AMD has poor software support, yes?). It's because the game engine/benchmark is that way. And no amount of AMD drivers can change that. Furthermore, the benchmark may be that way because unnecessary and excessive tessellation makes Nvidia look better, but that's a different point.

It seems you're tearing the games used down because you didn't like the results. But I could be wrong. Did any other review site use any of those games, and did you call it weird then too?

I don't recall any review sites using Guild Wars 2, but I may be wrong. I'm tearing the games apart because I don't really like the conclusion, this is an outlier review which got results that are quite different from any other site because of their poorly chosen test suite. If someone only tested with Thief, BF4, Tomb Raider, Dirt: Showdown, and Far Cry 3, then that would also be a poor review, it's horribly biased. I'm calling a spade a spade.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
76
They are using 290X DirectCu2 OC (1050/1350).

What do you think the gtx780ti is boosting to? [H] stated the nvidia super driver had their gpu running at higher clockspeeds than they had previously seen. So much for those CPU optimizations....
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
You have another great review to talk about Keys. It's from none other than PCper
Like someone else asked: why only focus on this one? I know it suits some people agendas but c'mon guys.

Edit: the card runs cooler, just as fast as top SLI or CF configs, it's not noisy, etc. Now i ask, isn't it good enough for you?

You guys should back up a notch as I am only really asking questions. I didnt know PCPer did a frame latency segment, until I asked and someone told. So folks, lets cut down the defensive stance shall we?
To make a lot of you feel at ease, I'll say this card is far better than expected.

Now off to read PCPer review and compare.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
76
You guys should back up a notch as I am only really asking questions. I didnt know PCPer did a frame latency segment, until I asked and someone told. So folks, lets cut down the defensive stance shall we?
To make a lot of you feel at ease, I'll say this card is far better than expected.

Now off to read PCPer review and compare.

PCper got far better results with the card than other reviews I read. Maybe someone needs to test dual GPUs on motherboards in the future see if they have any effect.
 

KaRLiToS

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2010
1,918
11
81
So according to AT review, on most resolutions the 3Gb TI has a 5% lead, and at high resolutions (4k) this has a 5% lead.......

Is that really worth it over the cost of 2x 290x for identical performance?

Four HD 7970 are even much better and for cheaper? Is the R9 295x2 really worth it?

You reasonning is not good.

______

I am almost 100% certain you are aware that the pricing on Dual GPUs is a little different, it always been the case.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
PCper got far better results with the card than other reviews I read. Maybe someone needs to test dual GPUs on motherboards in the future see if they have any effect.

Which one would you say carries more weight? PCPer or TP based on what you've seen here and why?
 
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