the real reason Israel is destroying Gaza....

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BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,785
1,500
126
I can't discount the major premise originating this thread.

First, anyone who ever examined the topic of "causal analysis" will tell you that a single event or result may have multiple -- even interdependent causes.

Second, my appraisal of "average" voters and the manifestation of public opinion in "letters to the editor" leads me to a conclusion that most people only want to admit one cause for anything. The interplay between myth and elections can be as dangerous as the German election of 1932.

Third, before you dismiss the notion that "strategic mineral deposits" are causative in the strife between Israel and the Palestinians, you'd best look at history -- a good part of it intersecting American policy, American wars, American initiatives and American mistakes.

The Balfour Declarations carving up the Middle East derives from British intentions about oil, and thus give us the history through Saddam Hussein and afterward.

Hitler split the Wehrmacht and Panzer divisions prior to the Battle of Stalingrad: one part converging on that city, the other part rushing to take control of the Baku oil-fields. Revisit that region now, with the trouble in eastern Ukraine. Of course, some may argue that the German army provisioned itself through "foraging," but you'd also best examine the oil output history of Germany over a long period.

Then there was George Kennan's "strategic dogma" and call-to-arms against "World" Communism. Add the great "Yellow Peril" myth spawned by the Japanese "Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere." What were Japan's interests with that euphemism, by the way? Certainly, the Australians were traumatized by "the Myth" -- their northern islands were actually invaded by the Japanese.

On the surface, those ideological motives drove us to war in Vietnam, even after the SEATO allies had abandoned the cause. But there were rumors of oil and mineral deposits in the South China Sea. Today, Vietnam produces oil, and there is conflict over . . . strategic mineral deposits in the South China Sea.

What about Cuba? Definitely, there was a great fear of a Soviet presence. But the missile deployments were actually a response to our own Atlas missiles deployed in Turkey -- close to Russia. Who was involved in "Operation Zapata" or the Bay of Pigs Invasion? There's sufficient evidence that a CIA "asset" -- founder of the Zapata Oil Company, congressman from Houston, RNC Chairman, CIA Director, Vice-President and then President -- financed the three ships, met with Cuban Exiles under CIA auspices.

Cuba is projected to become very rich in the next century, probably with risks similar to the Deep Horizon disaster of 2010.

Then there's Iran. On the surface, we're concerned about a theocracy of extremists, who think the Holocaust is a myth and bent on depriving Israel's right to exist. But ask any Iranian. The CIA overthrew Mossadegh in the early 1950's, replacing him with the Shah and the secret police known as SAVAK. The American people were told that Mossadegh was a socialist, bent on leaning toward Moscow. But the real motive has been explained as British desire to avoid paying royalties for oil extraction when the Iranian workers were being paid $0.60/diem. The deal-making involved American covert operations in Iran, and the British commitment to assist in the Korean War.

Anyone who'd read document declassifications and histories of the Cold War could conclude in the year 2000 what would unfold for the next 8 years -- with or without the 9/11 attack. Iraq holds the third largest oil reserve in the world, and the spigot had been cut to a trickle with sanctions. Two groups of conservatives had different opinions about the fruits of military intervention: neo-cons thought that the world price of oil would plummet, opening a new age of prosperity and cheap oil; the inner-circle of GOP oil-men and financiers wanted to control Iraqi oil, to keep the price at a relatively high level, and the latter prevailed.

At this point, I've become weary of explaining all this to any number of people. Folks really believe that the main issues in elections can be "abortion" or "socialism versus free-market solutions" or "I don't like his last name." One young woman working a 7/11 counter late at night after the 2000 election told me she voted for Bush because of "Clinton and that Monica thing."

And it doesn't matter of "Climate Change" is a myth, or that the costs are overblown. The extraction costs continue to rise, and the Earth has a finite supply. The Creationists and Bible-Thumpers deny that it took 200 million years to put that black goop in the ground. Lord knows how much of it we've put back into the atmosphere over the last couple hundred years.

If you could make energy costless or inexpensive (including the future costs unaccounted for regarding health, climate, agriculture and other things), politics would be clarified, more simple -- domestically and geopolitically.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
It's one religion, versus the other.

Enough said.

We pass this when people become educated enough to realize Religion is stupid.

-John
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
These things are never that cut and dried.

As Bonzai has pointed out many examples, if they were the worlds problems would have been solved long ago.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,785
1,500
126
These things are never that cut and dried.

As Bonzai has pointed out many examples, if they were the worlds problems would have been solved long ago.

Actually, I'm inclined to turn this around and accept Zorkorist's idea at face value. It isn't religion which complicates the strategic oil issues; it's the other way around.

I have never fully understood this issue of the Palestinians, except that Arabs in general objected to the establishment of the State of Israel back in the late 1940's. "Whose homeland is it?" The Jews were there before Caesar, but many of them scattered elsewhere. The Arabs can claim they've been there for a millennium.

With that sort of history, and Israel as a relatively young modern state of perhaps 60 years, I can see how this has never been resolved.

What I cannot get over is how - or why -- they've never been able to resolve this, instead choosing to widen the religious and cultural rift.

Solve the Palestinian problem with Israel in such a way that doesn't imperil the State of Israel, and a lot of the other troubles would go away. We're threatened by ISIS because we support Israel. The goal should be to make it a non-issue. But apparently, there's no compromise with the Arab extremists. "Israel has to go!" THEY aren't all torn up about the world oil supply; they simply want to make it a weapon against the West. They may despise our meddling in Middle Eastern politics, but the fundamental issue is one they refuse to resolve through some sort of compromise.

We're all torn up about the oil complexities and the terrorists.

It is very tiring and disturbing to think about this stuff for too long. . . .
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
If this is about oil and gas extraction, then why did the Palestinians invest their resources in rockets and kidnapping/murder tunnels and not in oil and gas extraction?
 

SandEagle

Lifer
Aug 4, 2007
16,813
13
0
If this is about oil and gas extraction, then why did the Palestinians invest their resources in rockets and kidnapping/murder tunnels and not in oil and gas extraction?

hamas is an israeli creation. no paleatinians have claimed responsibility for firing those bottle rockets. wouldnt surprise me if some fake hamas guys were lobbying these to continue the land grab. hell, they already caught jews pretending to be mooslims and alqaeda before. oldest trick in the book; create the enemies you need.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsUtvOW6SR0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2550513.stm
http://henrymakow.com/2014/01/Al-Cia-da-is-False-Opposition .html


 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You decided to try to attack the two sentences of my post on their own despite the clear fact that they were in relation to each other for the overall meaning.

Yes, clearly one major component of Iron Dome is the rocket magnet that sucks up all the Palestinians' rockets (which are built only because they have nothing else to eat and rockets are quite filling as well as making excellent foster parents for orphaned children) and thus makes them appear to be attacking Israel.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
It's one religion, versus the other.

Enough said.

We pass this when people become educated enough to realize Religion is stupid.

-John

You say this a lot, but Israelis are really not that religious. ie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Israel and this certainly applies to most of the Israeli people I've known. Being Jewish means a lot more than religious beliefs to a lot of people in and out of Israel. Compare with this for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States

The orthodox do have a disproportionate influence on the government (at least that seemed apparent to me), but it's far less than what you get in most Arab states with a Muslim majority.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
31
91
Wow, the Israelis want to go to war over that oil so bad they agreed to a cease-fire. And the Palestinians want peace so bad it took them two hours to break the cease-fire by killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping a third.

I dunno... perhaps the reason Israel is destroying Gaza is because the Palestinians are terrorists.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
I LOLed at the OP, especially the quote where they emphasized that Israel was attacking houses and not military installations. Well DUH! Are they just supposed to go find unrelated military installations somewhere else and bomb them?! Are they just supposed to throw their hands up in the air, ignore every cache they have located, and keep spending $100,000 per Iron Shield launch just because there is not military installation to retalliate against? If they did, understand that there will be a LOT more Iron Shield activations when they can't eliminate them at the source. How can you condemn them BOTH for trying to eliminate the source without spending $100,000 per inbound missile AND for spending $100,000 per inbound missile? Damned if they do, damned if they don't: STFU.

That "houses" statement is leading just like when someone tries to justify a weapons ban by asking "why do you need X weapon for hunting?" when they know good and well that the right to bear arms has nothing to do with hunting. Then it goes on to say that the Israeli death toll is "zero" right after talking about the confirmed dead children! Only a bigot would read that and not laugh at the willfull ignorance of reality in it.

Sandy, please change or leave AT for good next time. You are brainwashed with hate and we don't need this crap.

Did you forget that Israel just gave Gaza back in 2005 (not that Palestine was ever a country in the first place)? They only invaded to protect thenselves. Period.
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Actually, I'm inclined to turn this around and accept Zorkorist's idea at face value. It isn't religion which complicates the strategic oil issues; it's the other way around.

I have never fully understood this issue of the Palestinians, except that Arabs in general objected to the establishment of the State of Israel back in the late 1940's. "Whose homeland is it?" The Jews were there before Caesar, but many of them scattered elsewhere. The Arabs can claim they've been there for a millennium.

With that sort of history, and Israel as a relatively young modern state of perhaps 60 years, I can see how this has never been resolved.

What I cannot get over is how - or why -- they've never been able to resolve this, instead choosing to widen the religious and cultural rift.

Solve the Palestinian problem with Israel in such a way that doesn't imperil the State of Israel, and a lot of the other troubles would go away. We're threatened by ISIS because we support Israel. The goal should be to make it a non-issue. But apparently, there's no compromise with the Arab extremists. "Israel has to go!" THEY aren't all torn up about the world oil supply; they simply want to make it a weapon against the West. They may despise our meddling in Middle Eastern politics, but the fundamental issue is one they refuse to resolve through some sort of compromise.

We're all torn up about the oil complexities and the terrorists.

It is very tiring and disturbing to think about this stuff for too long. . . .

We pass this, when people realize Religion is stupid.

-John

If this is about oil and gas extraction, then why did the Palestinians invest their resources in rockets and kidnapping/murder tunnels and not in oil and gas extraction?

So in other word's it's still not that cut and dried?
 

lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
808
1
41
Wow, the Israelis want to go to war over that oil so bad they agreed to a cease-fire. And the Palestinians want peace so bad it took them two hours to break the cease-fire by killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping a third.

I dunno... perhaps the reason Israel is destroying Gaza is because the Palestinians are terrorists.

The Israelis "agreed to a cease-fire" but never actually removed their troops or stood down their operations in Gaza. So they didn't actually comply with the cease-fire, just agreed to it.

What's that old saying about... something something cries out in pain as he strikes you.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
The Israelis "agreed to a cease-fire" but never actually removed their troops or stood down their operations in Gaza. So they didn't actually comply with the cease-fire, just agreed to it.

What's that old saying about... something something cries out in pain as he strikes you.
What are the details of the cease-fire, because it appears that you know them? Was Israel obligated to remove troops or stand down operations? Or was the deal simply to stop shooting/firing/bombing each other?

And which group more often actually doesn't observe the requirements of a cease-fire, Israel or Hamas?

I think we all know the answer to that question.
 

poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
<-- very old news....everybody who is anybody knows about this..including your fellow Comrades!!

its news to me and i'm sure hundreds of millions of other people. Not all of us are fully into the israeli/palestine issue 24/7 and just occasionally read up about it. So color me surprised to find out about this.

I stopped following the Israeli/palestine issue as its just depressing, but lets be honest here, the Palestinians are the underdogs and all the cards are in Israel's hands. Everyday Israel's treatment and actions against them provides new fighters for Hamas. You're Hamas' greatest recruitment tool with the way u treat common Palestinians.

Israeli's don't see them as people, u see them as animals/non humans, how else can you justify such an absurd death toll ratio with no sympathy? The same way Europeans saw natives in North America as subhuman and not entitled to their land...and when the natives fought back they were called savages.

It's just so ironic the Germans viewed Jews as subhuman in the 30s and 40s and their treatment of Jews in Europe led to the creation of Israel...only to have the Jews do it to another people.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
its news to me and i'm sure hundreds of millions of other people. Not all of us are fully into the israeli/palestine issue 24/7 and just occasionally read up about it. So color me surprised to find out about this.<-- well don`t be mad that you came to the party late!! You need to follow the news more closely...the Levant Basin has been known to the world since at least 2010.....

I stopped following the Israeli/palestine issue as its just depressing, but lets be honest here, the Palestinians are the underdogs and all the cards are in Israel's hands. Everyday Israel's treatment and actions against them provides new fighters for Hamas. You're Hamas' greatest recruitment tool with the way u treat common Palestinians. <-- your blinded by Hamas propaganda and your a tool of Hamas!! Lets be honest your not being honest. Your being a tool! Hamas doesn`t care if they kill Israeli citizens...but they don`t care if Palestinian civilians die...for Hamas until recently having Palestinians die has been a huge public relations coup for Hamas!! To Hamas that is a win, win!!

It has been said that Israel is using a missile defense system to protect its citizens and Hamas is using it`s citizens to protect it`s missiles!

If Hamas had the opportunity or the weapons they would kill the maximum number Israeli`s they could....
Yet Israel has the opportunity to kill way more people and they do not.....


Israeli's don't see them as people, u see them as animals/non humans, how else can you justify such an absurd death toll ratio with no sympathy? The same way Europeans saw natives in North America as subhuman and not entitled to their land...and when the natives fought back they were called savages. <-- you have no clue what your talking about!! Let me ask you a question -- why are the Palestinian people treated like second class citizens by other Arab nations? Why do their brothers and sisters in those other Arab nations turn their backs on them?

It's just so ironic the Germans viewed Jews as subhuman in the 30s and 40s and their treatment of Jews in Europe led to the creation of Israel...only to have the Jews do it to another people. <-- you really are out to lunch!!

Now let me tell you a fact -- If the Palestinian people would get rid of Hamas there would be a negotiated and lasting peace!! Hamas is the problem! The problem is Hamas has used the Palestinian people to hide arms...to dig tunnels under their homes. Hamas sees the Palestinian people as fodder for their own propaganda!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
The Israelis "agreed to a cease-fire" but never actually removed their troops or stood down their operations in Gaza. So they didn't actually comply with the cease-fire, just agreed to it.

Why do they let children post on these forums??
A cease fire means stop fighting!
There was no agreement that both sides would withdraw.......
Stay in school kid!!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Wow, the Israelis want to go to war over that oil so bad they agreed to a cease-fire. And the Palestinians want peace so bad it took them two hours to break the cease-fire by killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping a third.

I dunno... perhaps the reason Israel is destroying Gaza is because the Palestinians are terrorists.
<-- There probably is more truth than you know!! That would explain why the tunnels are dug under Palestinian homes and why rockets and munitions are stored in the tunnels and in schools and Hospitals...very interesting hypothesis!!
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,167
3,862
136
Now let me tell you a fact -- If the Palestinian people would get rid of Hamas there would be a negotiated and lasting peace!! Hamas is the problem! The problem is Hamas has used the Palestinian people to hide arms...to dig tunnels under their homes. Hamas sees the Palestinian people as fodder for their own propaganda!

Stop with your non sense, you re using Hamas as a shield to cover your war crimes.

 

lagokc

Senior member
Mar 27, 2013
808
1
41
Why do they let children post on these forums??
A cease fire means stop fighting!
There was no agreement that both sides would withdraw.......
Stay in school kid!!

Hamas claims Israel advanced 2.4km during the ceasefire. That should really violate the terms.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91

Your cute poster forgot one of the logical fallacies!--Posting an image of a logical fallacies poster in an attempt to point out that someone is allegedly committing a logical fallacy while failing to explain the nature of the fallacy.
 
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