THe Sandia Cooler - Breakthrough in Air Cooling design

Page 10 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
You can clearly see the SP for air changes at different temperatures + Pressure in a system.

I hope someone can double-check my conclusions. Ah, but look more closely at what you are citing, and notice that specific heat capacity is shown changing as a function of pressure, not temperature? Also, notice the pressure scale is shown in decade/logarithmic, to better show any changes at all by compressing the chart horizontally? Without that compression, the chart would be very very flat near the 1 bar or atmosphere mark.

And here are some reasons why I think heat capacity of air is not important. 1) the changes in pressure across this Sandia cooler system are very small, almost negligible, especially when you see how it takes a whole lot of pressure change to make a very small change in heat capacity. 2) temperature is not a factor that affects heat capacity of air. 3) Even changing the heat capacity of air for this cooler shouldn't really affect how it works, the neat parts of it.

The part that is confusing to me is how that value can be uniform everywhere on the plate even with laminar flow.

The heat capacity depends on pressure. We'll discuss the pressure for the fluid bearing part, and the pressure for the spinning fan fins part, and tie it back to heat capacity. Regardless, just looking at the chart for heat capacity, you see that even some changes in pressure would still lead to almost no change in heat capacity.

For the fluid bearing, I think it's the fluid-dynamic type where pressure would be rather constant, therefore making the heat capacity rather constant. But even if the fluid-bearing is hydrostatic, because the fluid is so turbulently mixed around in there, it can easily transfer heat between the surfaces, so we wouldn't even care if the heat capacity varies inside. And even if the pressure varies, we already see from your chart above that the varying pressure still doesn't really change the heat capacity. So for the fluid bearing, it doesn't really matter.

For the spinning fans, we see that the pressure would somewhat increase at the fan blades, increasing heat capacity across the fan. But that's a good thing, because the air could then absorb more heat, though I still think it would be a small increase anyway.

More specifically, I believe the very cool effect is how the sandia cooler changes the flow behavior, the arrangement of the laminar/turbulent layers etc. (someone else can use the proper description) where the air meets the surface of the blade. So it's not that the air changes its specific heat capacity. Rather, you get a very nice effect even with the same specific heat capacity, because the way the air interacts with surfaces is changed due to how layers are formed under the pressure of spinning/centripetal forces.

Notice that neat effect is lost in traditional coolers, because the spinning fans in traditional coolers are just plastic blades that aren't cooling the air, just moving it. The traditional heatsink is stationary, so it doesn't get a chance to change the layering behavior of air when the moving air encounters the stationary heatsink.

The F is obviously directed at the center... its like a black hole which shoots air out.
Then i would assume a pressure would be formed at the center of the disk.

Do you have this backwards? The spinning fan throws air outward, creating a low pressure vacuum at the center of the fan. So the fan draws its own air. You seem to suggest there is some force directing air toward the center that forms a pressure? I'm not sure what you mean. Maybe you are saying the fan somehow blows air into the fluid bearing to pressurize it (hydrostatic)? Or are you talking about the part of the spinning section that has the fins, facing away from the fluid bearing?

This is where i am getting confused. The value for air will not the same at the center then it is on the edges.

Again, are you sure about that? See the chart, and how at 1 atmosphere, the heat capacity doesn't change much even when you increase or decrease the pressure. Even increasing the pressure to 10 atmospheres, the heat capacity barely changes.

So, I think you are talking about negligible effects, even any changes would be very negligible.

But, also, can you see that the interesting effect is not only due to specific heat capacity, but other effects? More of how the air behaves/flows/layers.
 

Michael Meio

Member
Jul 2, 2011
48
0
0
There is another thread under Hardware and Technology > Cases & Cooling about the topic.. If you guys are interested, take a peek:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2177963&highlight=

To this day, I still find Sandia Labs device has an interesting approach but it is very difficult to build as it requires demanding tolerances which should be maintained over long periods of time, making it a very expensive setup which I doubt people will pay for, considering present market conditions.

I recall there is some claim that the device is dust-proof and we discussed that on the above mentioned thread. With a 0.001IN gap, it's hard to keep dust out.. -not impossible- just difficult and I don't think it belongs in an average Joe's gaming rig.

The mechanics are there, the effect of the air bearing/cushion is true but the conditions under which the device must operate belong to a lab.

Adios
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,022
599
126
everyone seems to forget what the original target application for this coolers was: low profile, low weight, non clogging cooler for military electronics in adverse environment.

military vehicles with advanced electronics(jets/helo/afv) need to be able to survive massive inertial moments(high g-force, high frequency bouncing) and a 16cm tall tower HS jutting off any bracket would rip the pcb apart in short order.

the sandia cooler is low profile and sits close to the pcb, so no leverage. the razorblade-esque impeller array is high rpm to throw off dust, and more than likely loud as a blender(no one other than submariners care about noise.) the main thing is that the cooling performance is on par or slightly better than a larger tower hs which cant be used in the military environment.

in other words: THIS ISNT MEANT FOR YOU(consumer hobbyist system builders).

[also in the original videos, the developer states that the open top fin array(sharp bits) can be covered, so it wouldnt expose the edges.]

Seems to me (a layman) that having such a high angular momentum would be detrimental in those applications. I would think it would act as a gyroscope, causing additional force to be generated during any acceleration.
 
Last edited:

Xpage

Senior member
Jun 22, 2005
459
15
81
www.riseofkingdoms.com
i would think starting and stopping the fan many times will scour the smoothness of the fan as it starts up to make an air bearing. Plop this in those vegetable oil baths some servers are in and this would be awesome
 

yournamehere485

Junior Member
Oct 10, 2012
12
0
61
I think king touched on it, but this is not a pressure driven system, and even if it were the pressure delta needed to generate an equivalent air flow is such that, that specific heat capacity is not an issue.

P.S. Look into the differences between absolute, gauge, and especially in this case, differential pressure.

Also, as an M.E. I can state that the manufacturing tolerances are not necessarily impressive. I do have a few questions regarding transient operations with a relatively massive fan (compared to forced convection heat sinks).

I would be interested to see any FEA data. Aside from actually prototyping, FEA should be fairly conclusive.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
Why, in 2013, do we still not have any actual product to test? If I had to guess I would say that its because the parts they have spinning away in their labs for extended periods all show degrading performance, and the performance degradation curve shows acceleration.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
If I had to guess I would say that its because the parts they have spinning away in their labs for extended periods all show degrading performance, and the performance degradation curve shows acceleration.

Can you elaborate on how you arrived at this? Are you saying that when things are spinning, they will degrade? I think the point of the air bearing is that the parts don't physically contact each other once they've spun up, so are you thinking there is something else going on to degrade it?
 

Tsavo

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2009
2,645
37
91
Can you elaborate on how you arrived at this? Are you saying that when things are spinning, they will degrade? I think the point of the air bearing is that the parts don't physically contact each other once they've spun up, so are you thinking there is something else going on to degrade it?

Spinning things gather dust. The faster it spins, the greater the gathering of dust. They say it won't gather dust due to its rotational speed...but not everyone lives/works in a filtered air atmosphere like people at Sandia do.
 

yournamehere485

Junior Member
Oct 10, 2012
12
0
61
Spinning things gather dust. The faster it spins, the greater the gathering of dust. They say it won't gather dust due to its rotational speed...but not everyone lives/works in a filtered air atmosphere like people at Sandia do.

A CPU fan does not increase air intake into the system. Particulate fouling of the entire system will be be among other things a function the volumetric flow rate of air through the entire case.

Certain components will of course draw a greater percentage of this fouled air through them, and thus accumulate fouling at a greater rate. However this itself will be a function of component properties (surface charge, geometric fan properties, and a few others), but also a function of the volumetric flow rate across/through the particular component.

Because this device is unique, we don't know the flow rate through the cooler itself, we also don't know the relative air speed through cooler. Without knowing these values, it is hard to really determine fouling factor.

Generally speaking, high velocity, low mass flow rates, have reduced fouling, as the high velocity reduces the likely-hood that particulates will drop out of the flow, and low mass flow rates cause a reduction in the intake off fouled matter.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
I wonder if the dust accumulation for the Sandia cooler follows the behavior of the blower-type fans? Those seem to be really good at avoiding dust buildup. In contrast to the traditional fan blades that you see trapping dust on their leading edges.

I think it's something to do with the centripetal forces in the blower-style fans and how the blades are perpendicular to those forces. Not sure how centripetal forces will affect dust in Sandia style, but I think it's definitely different than the analogies to ceiling fans or other traditional bladed fans where their leading edges get knocked into the dust.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,282
3,903
75
Looking at that, I was just thinking what a great laptop cooler it would make. I wonder if they're going to try that smaller form factor? It would be really nice if laptop chips could run as fast as desktop chips, at least when plugged into a wall outlet.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Looks like an interesting concept, still hadn't looked at how it transfers the heat too much myself I guess.

Keeping it stable over time with out going off axis would worry me a bit I'd imagine, but I guess HDD's have been doing it for years.

Seems it would be highly prone to any shock damage in something like a laptop to me.
 
Last edited:

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Looks like an interesting concept, still hadn't looked at how it transfers the heat too much myself I guess.

Keeping it stable over time with out going off axis would worry me a bit I'd imagine, but I guess HDD's have been doing it for years.

Seems it would be highly prone to any shock damage in something like a laptop to me.

Except HD's are sealed and can stop/snap the heads back if they need to. A heatsink can't just cease to operate due to movement.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
glad its finally coming out and that a big name like coolermaster is part of it.

now if we could only get that stirling engine powered cooler that msi showed off years ago.
 

alyarb

Platinum Member
Jan 25, 2009
2,444
0
76
hopefully we will see a return to single-slot video cards in the high end, and perhaps even chip designers will see it as a means of getting away with higher power parts.
 
Last edited:

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,796
11,143
136
What's funny is that if you read earlier in this thread, you see that the Sandia guys were basically targeting low/mid-range mass-market systems for office/industry and suchlike.

This product is being aimed at the enthusiast/gamer market.

I would rather see what they could do with this thing in a 1U rack-type situation.

edit: I know this thread is ancient and therefore not necessarily a great place for off-topicness, but reading some fairly-to-extremely intelligent people post here about real-world "thermo" (heat transfer?) involving a bunch of non-equilibrium, steady-state stuff that makes collegiate-level material less-than-useful in practice piqued my interest.

I have studied enough heat transfer to know what is a thermal boundary layer as well as a few things that can reduce the thickness of said layer (turbulence, coolant velocity, stuff like that). If there are any (economically) accessible materials available to help "unteach" someone who has been exposed to collegiate heat transfer materials, it would be great if you could post links to it here or otherwise provide some indication of where one might find such material.

After all, it could go a long way to helping readers here understand how the Sandia hsf works.
 
Last edited:

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,033
4,798
136
I hope this type of cooling works out. My biggest concern is the fact that the entire unit is the fan. If it should fail will you be forced to replace the entire unit or just the fan portion like a conventional hsf?
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
2,582
162
106
I hope this type of cooling works out. My biggest concern is the fact that the entire unit is the fan. If it should fail will you be forced to replace the entire unit or just the fan portion like a conventional hsf?
Probably just the fan, unless of course firms would push for a full replacement, simply trying to make more money out of it.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |