The single mother of eight children planning a lavish Christmas - all funded by ...

[Jhhnn]

The world is becoming like farming. Only a few people are required to keep the whole thing running. The 97% that used to do other things will be unemployed. The unconscious knowledge that it's coming is probably what makes some so bitter. They're going to wind up nobodies too.

There's some perverse sort of self righteousness in the right wing state of denial. Somehow, it's about pride, which can be a good thing, too. About independence. It's about competition & winning, as well.

It's about a lot of positive values being twisted & exploited to maintain that denial. It's about finding something egregious to apply as a tarbrush, even if they have to reach across the Atlantic to find it. It's about demonizing a whole group of people left w/o work derived incomes using the most extreme examples available.

It's about hiding the fact that our capitalist masters need us less and less, even as they become more insulated from the economic swings their hyper competitive financial & business practices dictate. No billionaire experienced any real hardship in the demise of the Ownership Society. More than a few got richer on the way up, richer on the way down & richer through asset purchases at fire sale prices. That's not what happened to a lot of regular people who were working at the time, however.

Believing in the same things & following the same leadership will arrive at more of the same results, harder & deeper. It's the economic version of Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[MongGrel]

We need much more than a safety net. We need a society that is less dangerous to the self respect and natural desire people have to take care of themselves. We need a society that cooperates to build, not one playing king on the mountain. We need to repair broken people and prevent our children from becoming broken in the first place. We need a revolution in the way we see things.

This.

 

[himkhan]

I love watching progressives trip over each other to not only validate, but support such nonsense. It just further proves what a perverse mental illness that liberalism is.

Just like this post proves you used to post as someone else before you were banned. Yawn.

 

[bshole]

I agree with you about the safety net. However, I have a problem when some of the people are using the safety net as a hammock, climbing into it before they ever need it to stop them from falling, and who are intent on never leaving the net, intending instead to gain even more of the net.

I used to have a problem with that. I really did. I have since changed my mind and decided that that problem is only a symptom of a vastly larger problem. Human productivity has improved unabated for over a century now. For a long period of time, compensation moved right along with productivity. As workers became more productive, their share of the wealth increased in proportion. As illustrated by Matt1970, that trend ENDED in the 1970s. Incrementally, the pay for jobs that used to afford middle class lifestyles has eroded to the point that two such jobs and massive debt are required to maintain the same lifestyle. America and much of western civilization appears to be in an irreversible death spiral where each successive generation is a little worse off than the one before. It is a scary time in history. I have real worries for my children and grandchildren. Remember that the Romans had bread and circuses for their citizenry, welfare is a concept that has been around about as long as civilization. Civilizations don't fall based on welfare, they fall when they lose the ability to design, manufacture and produce their own goods.

 

[Moonbeam]

There's some perverse sort of self righteousness in the right wing state of denial. Somehow, it's about pride, which can be a good thing, too. About independence. It's about competition & winning, as well.

It's about a lot of positive values being twisted & exploited to maintain that denial. It's about finding something egregious to apply as a tarbrush, even if they have to reach across the Atlantic to find it. It's about demonizing a whole group of people left w/o work derived incomes using the most extreme examples available.

It's about hiding the fact that our capitalist masters need us less and less, even as they become more insulated from the economic swings their hyper competitive financial & business practices dictate. No billionaire experienced any real hardship in the demise of the Ownership Society. More than a few got richer on the way up, richer on the way down & richer through asset purchases at fire sale prices. That's not what happened to a lot of regular people who were working at the time, however.

Believing in the same things & following the same leadership will arrive at more of the same results, harder & deeper. It's the economic version of Stockholm Syndrome.

The deeper the state of competition becomes the greater the risk of failure. The greater the risk of failure the greater the fear of it. The greater the fear of failure the more contemptuous we become of any weakness in ourselves and the more overjoyed we are to see weakness in others. Competition, our market god, is nothing more than hate. In a world of hatred where competition is for work, the greater the number who have more to attend to in life that a single minded focus on making themselves economically viable will fall behind. Those without the money for education, not raised in a well connected family, taking care of family members who are young old or sick, who are isolated, grow up in bad conditions, etc, will fail at a higher rate that young single focused males or females. And when those kind win, they will preen themselves about how they made all the right moves and did all the right things, because of their personal discipline.

The first sign of a successful human being is compassion for those who haven't. That's why I feel so sorry for these so called successful types who have failed as human beings. They won the race they were running but lost the real one.

 

[WelshBloke]

The safety net is supposed to be there for those who try and fail. This woman aparetly lacked the "try".

Clearly she should have her children sold into enforced labour and herself put into the workhouse.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

The first sign of a successful human being is compassion for those who haven't. That's why I feel so sorry for these so called successful types who have failed as human beings. They won the race they were running but lost the real one.

Newsflash, genius: while you are in here showing false compassion for people that are stuck in a semi-permanent rut, I've been out there countless times showing people how to get themselves out their rut and show them their innate ability to live a positive life that is fulfilling. I'm putting my own money on the line giving these people a chance to right their paths, and to regain whatever confidence in themselves that they lost at some point.

I do this often times because it is easier to train someone to do a particular skill than to work with someone that is already set in their ways. Someone that wants that skill bad enough is often times hungry enough to do well at it. And I enjoy watching someone pick themselves up and succeed.

If that is your definition of a failed human being, then so be it. I'm happy with what I have accomplished. And I will continue to do so.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Just like this post proves you used to post as someone else before you were banned. Yawn.

I'll wager you are most certainly wrong on that. But keep guessing

 

[MongGrel]

Clearly she should have her children sold into enforced labour and herself put into the workhouse.

Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

 

[OverVolt]

When you've been gaming the system for generations they get pretty good at it.

 

[WackyDan]

Clearly she should have her children sold into enforced labour and herself put into the workhouse.

When people are forced to suffer for their poor decisions then they will learn valuable lessons, as will their children who won't repeat those same mistakes.

 

[Moonbeam]

When people are forced to suffer for their poor decisions then they will learn valuable lessons, as will their children who won't repeat those same mistakes.

This is so true. I never saw anybody yet who starved to death twice.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

There are lots of these stories regularly from the UK. I've seen about 6-8 and I try to ignore the threads that seem to be about them.

Marie's festive dreams come true when she discovers towards the end of the programme that they will be given a larger council house with a garden before Christmas - and her previous rent arrears are written off.


Edit: Now I remember why I don't read these threads about the UK, it just makes me sick that women just have 8+ kids, then spend all the "benefit" money they get on whatever they feel like, rack up debt, and have 0 repercussions.

At first I thought you were talking about financial institutions.

 

[Matt1970]

Clearly she should have her children sold into enforced labour and herself put into the workhouse.

Because when you can't afford one, 7 more will do the trick?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Because when you can't afford one, 7 more will do the trick?

Why do you care? It was in England and you're an American.

All kidding aside, what's your answer? Sterilization? Seizing the children and putting them up for adoption? Not providing anything at all, leave them to die on the street? Just provide the very barest necessary for survival like in the old poor house system? What?

 

[feralkid]

Newsflash, genius: while you are in here showing false compassion for people that are stuck in a semi-permanent rut, I've been out there countless times showing people how to get themselves out their rut and show them their innate ability to live a positive life that is fulfilling. I'm putting my own money on the line giving these people a chance to right their paths, and to regain whatever confidence in themselves that they lost at some point.

I do this often times because it is easier to train someone to do a particular skill than to work with someone that is already set in their ways. Someone that wants that skill bad enough is often times hungry enough to do well at it. And I enjoy watching someone pick themselves up and succeed.

If that is your definition of a failed human being, then so be it. I'm happy with what I have accomplished. And I will continue to do so.

And that makes you sound like a self-righteous asshole. Hero in your own mind.

 

[Matt1970]

Why do you care? It was in England and you're an American.

Well played.

All kidding aside, what's your answer? Sterilization? Seizing the children and putting them up for adoption? Not providing anything at all, leave them to die on the street? Just provide the very barest necessary for survival like in the old poor house system? What?

Nobody wants anyone dying in the streets. What we all want, I hope, is for people to take a little responsibility and having 8 kids when you can't even afford one is not taking responsibility for your own actions.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

And that makes you sound like a self-righteous asshole. Hero in your own mind.

Ten times over!

 

[feralkid]

Nobody wants anyone dying in the streets. What we all want, I hope, is for people to take a little responsibility and having 8 kids when you can't even afford one is not taking responsibility for your own actions.

Agreed, but what now? Time machine to change reality or feed the kids?


Seriously, some people here would lecture their kids about playing with matches while the house is burning down around them.




.

 

[Moonbeam]

Newsflash, genius: while you are in here showing false compassion for people that are stuck in a semi-permanent rut, I've been out there countless times showing people how to get themselves out their rut and show them their innate ability to live a positive life that is fulfilling. I'm putting my own money on the line giving these people a chance to right their paths, and to regain whatever confidence in themselves that they lost at some point.

I do this often times because it is easier to train someone to do a particular skill than to work with someone that is already set in their ways. Someone that wants that skill bad enough is often times hungry enough to do well at it. And I enjoy watching someone pick themselves up and succeed.

If that is your definition of a failed human being, then so be it. I'm happy with what I have accomplished. And I will continue to do so.

Now that we've established the fact you're a person of decent intentions, perhaps now we can move on to the real issue, how best to help people who need help to help themselves. A one man show, even multiplied many times, isn't going to cut it. The question I would ask you is why do you enjoy seeing people pick themselves up. Isn't it because success is self rewarding, not that it makes you better than other people when gained and worthless if not? You have to find a way to encourage the discouraged and not run them down when they fail.

 

[Zorkorist]

He's saying he has helped many people, personally, Moonbeam.

Meanwhile, our Government, is at a 17 Trillion Dollar Deficit, and purports, to help people.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

On topic... I'm pretty sure her Christmas won't be lavish.

Lowest common denominator.

-John

 

[justoh]

Actually watched a few episodes of that series (Benefits Britain). They had a very critical episode featuring foreigners coming to the UK just to apply for benefits. Like this guy who bought a cell-phone and skateboard with tax-payers money.

Must make a lot of conservatives really angry.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

Now that we've established the fact you're a person of decent intentions, perhaps now we can move on to the real issue, how best to help people who need help to help themselves. A one man show, even multiplied many times, isn't going to cut it.

Don't I know it.

The question I would ask you is why do you enjoy seeing people pick themselves up. Isn't it because success is self rewarding, not that it makes you better than other people when gained and worthless if not?

I've often asked myself the same thing. Maybe it's because someone gave me that same chance when I was down and out, even though there was absolutely no reason for him to.
However, he didn't make it easy for me. He showed me what to do, and gave me the barest of resources in which to work with. And he warned me that if I played him, he'd drop me like hammer. But he managed to show me the possibilities that were open to me.
I could go on and on. And maybe I will sometime. But nevertheless, I try to 'pay it forward' when I find the opportunity.

You have to find a way to encourage the discouraged and not run them down when they fail.

No. You have to find a way to motivate them, to convince them that its either the straight and narrow, or their fucked. No other choices. If you take away the option of free money to live off of, one of two things will occur:

1) they will grab onto that, and fish like they never have.

or

2) they will never learn to fend for themselves, which makes you wonder if they are worth the money? Yes, that sounds cold and callous, and I would never truly want someone to be left out in the cold. But it makes you wonder what hope there is for such people. Some people are simply unrecoverable. And with that, they need to live with that choice.

How to do you provide that motivation en masse? That is a fair question. One I've been tempted to open a thread on for opinions. Again, maybe I will at some point.

But in short, I believe jobs training (and mean good jobs training), limited funds that are provided only when certain benchmarks are attained by the recipient. They need to show good, hard, confirmable progress to get to the next level of assistance. And these 'plans' need to be custom-designed for each recipient, according to their needs.
They need to be aware that assistance is time-limited, and that the opportunity has a small window. Blow it, and thats thats. You live with that consequence.
But that recipient must also be given an attainable goal, again dependent on his/her situation.

How would a massive bureaucracy perform this task? I think it should be done at the local level, assisted by the state for funding. But thats it. Keep it at the local level as much as possible. Keep it out the feds hands, because that bureaucracy is too massive to even be effective.

I think the closest analogy I can think of is the Welfare reform program that was initiated in WI back in 96 or 97. Something similar to that, but on steroids. Be firm, but compassionate.

 

[Sir Thumpsalot]

However, something like that would need to take time to slowly get traction in a society that thinks that getting something for nothing is okay. I feel that such teachings are like a cancer to a society that was born with liberty and individualism in mind.

I don't claim to know all the answers. I only see that what we have now simply doesn't work. While you may alleviate the symptoms of poverty with these massive incredibly expensive social programs, you are not curing or alleviating the problems of poverty. You are only perpetuating them in the name of 'compassion and kindness'

If you want to show them compassion and assistance, give them a carrot by which to guide them to a better life. Don't give them an albatross at the expense of the taxpayers.

Do this, and they will eventually thank you for it. And so will the taxpayers.