The speed of...

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Just wondering, with light's speed through a vacuum being ~300.000 km/sec, and being "the fastest", you still keep hearing people talking about electric signals traveling at "the speed of light", though I guess that's more or less just a way of saying "fast as hell", since I(being a sysadmin who hasn't read physics since school ) would guess that depends on the medium, same as the speed of light depends on the medium.

Anyways, are there any other forms of radion that travel at the speed of light for example, or have any relations to it?
Or by all means, any kind of signals, including previously mentioned electrical signals?

Quite possibly a stupid question I know, and probably not very HT if you know anything more than basic physics, but I didn't really feel like posting this in OT, considering the general state of affaris with regards to anything related to science in OT.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
I think electric, magnetic and gravitational fields propagate at the speed of light. Electric signal do indeed travel at the speed of light since the electrons are moving as a result of a propagated electric field which moves at the speed of light.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Ned Flanders
Releated Q: Can light be speeded up or is it always constant?

Amateur answer incoming:
c is the speed of light in a vacuum, and it's just under 300.000 km/sec
As far as I know, that's the fastest it'll go, but it'll slow down when traveling through water, glass, etc.
 

andyandyandy

Member
Mar 25, 2006
26
0
0
As a continuing answer to Sunner, Speed of light in a vaccum and air are roughly 3.00x10^8..i dont know which one is faster though. In certain mediums such as glass or water they have different optically density and therefore slow down the light more (speed of light in glass is only 2.00x10^8!) which you guessed it refracts it more, and we get a Refractive Index. Gamma rays also travel at the speed of light, beta rays being electrons travel at around .9 C and Alpha rays at a mere .1 C
Btw i am still in high school doing physics..so i tried.

Andy
 

PsYcHoCoW

Member
Mar 29, 2005
133
0
0
I know from my telecomms class that signals don't travel "at" the speed of light. Depending on the conductor, it can be like 90% of the speed of light, for example.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
All EM waves will travel at the speed of light. The only difference is that the 'speed of light' is not a universal constant - it's a material property. Thus, the speed of light will depend on the medium of transmission, with the upper maximum value occurring in an absolute vacuum.
 

stupidkid

Member
Jun 21, 2006
113
0
0
Originally posted by: TuxDave
I think electric, magnetic and gravitational fields propagate at the speed of light. Electric signal do indeed travel at the speed of light since the electrons are moving as a result of a propagated electric field which moves at the speed of light.

Electrons do not travel at the speed of light since electrons have a non-zero mass.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Sometimes people like to use misleading numbers for the speed of propagation down a waveguide (ie: cable). The simplest to talk about is a rectangular waveguide, a rectangular shell made of an excellent conductor. What we care about is the motion of the waves along the axis of the waveguide, but a plane wave front does not propagate along the axis. Instead, the wave front bounces back and forth along the walls, at an angle to the waveguide axis. Since we are only concerned in the propagation along the axis of the waveguide, we can get misleading velocity values. The wavelength is spread out at an angle to the axis, as such, the apparent wavelength along the z-axis is shorter than the actual wavelength. So the apparent velocity of the phase front of the wave along the z-axis is larger than the actual velocity of the wave. So when people talk about the guide phase velocity, the actual velocity reported is not the velocity of energy and it can actually be greater than c. The actual velocity of the energy (or information) of the signal lags behind the phase front and travels at the group velocity, which is always slower than light. We can think of the phase front as being a carrier signal while the group is the information modulated into the carrier. The carrier signal travels faster than the information, and can travel faster than the speed of light. But since the carrier signal does not transmit any energy or information, then this does not result in any violations.

When we talk about radiation, any electromagnetic radiation will travel at the speed of light. For example, gamma rays or x-rays. These radiations are simply photons with high energy. Other forms of radiation, like beta or alpha, transmit elementary particles like electrons or neutrons and protons and thus must travel at speeds less than c.

And as TuxDave said, electrical signals like currents are the result of electromagnetic waves (and electromagnetic waves are the result of currents, yay reciprocity!). As such, they do travel at the speed of light. But due to the fact that light does not travel as fast as c inside a medium other than a vacuum, and due to the fact that it does not always propagate exactly along the axis of our waveguide, the actual speed of the signal is going to be less than c and less than the speed of light in that material.


EDIT:
Electrons do not travel at the speed of light since electrons have a non-zero mass.
Electrons are not the mechanism by which electricity flows. Electricity flows as a result of electromagnetic waves. So as soon as an EM wave reaches a point on a conductor, it is going to excite currents there. However, as I stated, in a waveguide, EM waves do not flow perfectly in the direction of the waveguide, the generally bounce back and forth and thus the velocity of information is going to be less than the actual velocity of the wave in the waveguide's material. Other factors are due to the fact that our electrical devices generally do not react to the EM wave, but to the electrons that flow because of it. In that case we are limited to the velocity of the electrons, but for simple transfer of information down a wire or a trace, that mechanism is from the EM wave. A signal is information, so it depends on how we are transfering that information. So when transfering down a wire, the EM wave transmits the information, only at the device do we start using the electrons to receive and interpret the information.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: stupidkid
Originally posted by: TuxDave
I think electric, magnetic and gravitational fields propagate at the speed of light. Electric signal do indeed travel at the speed of light since the electrons are moving as a result of a propagated electric field which moves at the speed of light.

Electrons do not travel at the speed of light since electrons have a non-zero mass.

Electrons start moving as a result of a propagated EM wave (speed of light). I'm not saying the electrons themselves move at the speed of light. In fact the electron's drift velocity is very very slow. HOWEVER, in order to receive the electric signal we don't have to wait for the electron at the beginning of the conductor to move from beginning to end. All we need is the EM wave to get to the end of the conductor and excite the electron on the very end.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
The speed at which electrons travel through a medium when conducting electricity is known as the electron drift velocity, which is normally in the low mm/s ranges
 

Spinne

Member
Sep 24, 2003
57
0
0
Are you sure about that? It seems more likely that it's a domino type effect. If all that we're doing is waiting for an EM signal to transfer, then why have a conductor at all? In conventional electronics, it's a domino effect with the electrons that transmits signals. I think what you're describing is more of a fibre-optic type system.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: Spinne
Are you sure about that? It seems more likely that it's a domino type effect. If all that we're doing is waiting for an EM signal to transfer, then why have a conductor at all? In conventional electronics, it's a domino effect with the electrons that transmits signals. I think what you're describing is more of a fibre-optic type system.

The conductor forms the basis of the waveguide, it directs the wave along the desired path.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: Born2bwire
Originally posted by: Spinne
Are you sure about that? It seems more likely that it's a domino type effect. If all that we're doing is waiting for an EM signal to transfer, then why have a conductor at all? In conventional electronics, it's a domino effect with the electrons that transmits signals. I think what you're describing is more of a fibre-optic type system.

The conductor forms the basis of the waveguide, it directs the wave along the desired path.

:thumbsup: Was about to post the same thing you did.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Well, I got more than I asked for it seems, interesting nevertheless, thanks for all the info
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
3,112
0
0
It will slow even when travelling thru air - and some particles can travel faster than light in air. I think this is called Cherenkov radiation, when you have protons flying thru air faster than speed of light in air (but NO faster than speed of light in a void).
 

RossGr

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2000
3,383
1
0
Photons ALWAYS propagate at c, the absolute speed of light in a vacuum. When in a medium they are adsorbed, then after a short delay, reemitted. The reemitted photon may or may not be the same energy (wavelength). A sort of good analogy is driving down a street with a speed limit. If you have stop signs every block, it takes longer to go a mile, then if you drive a mile without stopping. In a medium photons encounter many stop signs.

Propagation in a crystalline medium is much more complicated. It involves vibrations of the crystal structure called Phonons.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
94
91
Originally posted by: RossGr
Photons ALWAYS propagate at c, the absolute speed of light in a vacuum. When in a medium they are adsorbed, then after a short delay, reemitted. The reemitted photon may or may not be the same energy (wavelength). A sort of good analogy is driving down a street with a speed limit. If you have stop signs every block, it takes longer to go a mile, then if you drive a mile without stopping. In a medium photons encounter many stop signs.

Propagation in a crystalline medium is much more complicated. It involves vibrations of the crystal structure called Phonons.

that analogy is decent, but the car encounters several accelerations, which the photons do not.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
Originally posted by: TuxDave
I think electric, magnetic and gravitational fields propagate at the speed of light. Electric signal do indeed travel at the speed of light since the electrons are moving as a result of a propagated electric field which moves at the speed of light.

Actually, that's not quite true. There is a constant electric field within a wire or a circuit. Usually electrons travelling through a circuit or wire travel much slower than the speed of light, but they are still moving very very fast! The electromagnetic field indeed propogates at the speed of light.

In fact, there is a lot of excitement over the substance graphene because it allows a current of electrons to travel near the speed of light, which is usually only possible if you're using a source of beta radiation (high energy electrons) or an electron accelerator (such as a magnetron). Scientists are considering using graphene as a means of obtaining high-energy electrons without having to spend the time and money on using an accelerator.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Ned Flanders
Releated Q: Can light be speeded up or is it always constant?

Normally, light in a vacuum can not be sped up.

However, there are some optical tricks one can use to "speed up" a light signal using special optical fibres and other devices. I'm not really familiar with the exact specifications, but you can probably google for it.

Light in a vacuum is constant, light in other mediums is variable and sometimes even "apparently" faster than vacuum through strange optical properties.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
Originally posted by: Calin
It will slow even when travelling thru air - and some particles can travel faster than light in air. I think this is called Cherenkov radiation, when you have protons flying thru air faster than speed of light in air (but NO faster than speed of light in a void).

There are relativistic effects that would otherwise make a particle seem to travel faster than the speed of light. For example, muons that form in the atmosphere can be detected on the surface. However, the detectable lifetime of these particles is incredibly short, and in order to be detectable on the surface it would have to get there with a speed that is greater than the speed of light in a vacuum. Luckily relativity comes along and shows that spacetime curves so that the muon shows up just fine while only moving near the speed of light.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: Eeezee
Originally posted by: TuxDave
I think electric, magnetic and gravitational fields propagate at the speed of light. Electric signal do indeed travel at the speed of light since the electrons are moving as a result of a propagated electric field which moves at the speed of light.

Actually, that's not quite true. There is a constant electric field within a wire or a circuit. Usually electrons travelling through a circuit or wire travel much slower than the speed of light, but they are still moving very very fast! The electromagnetic field indeed propogates at the speed of light.

In fact, there is a lot of excitement over the substance graphene because it allows a current of electrons to travel near the speed of light, which is usually only possible if you're using a source of beta radiation (high energy electrons) or an electron accelerator (such as a magnetron). Scientists are considering using graphene as a means of obtaining high-energy electrons without having to spend the time and money on using an accelerator.

It was clarified above that I did not mean that the electrons are moving at the speed of light. It was the fact that the final electron at the end of the wire starts to move after the electric field finally propagates to the end of the wire. That propagation moves at the speed of light). I'm not sure what you mean by the electrons moving really fast. The electrons may be moving very fast in random directions however the net motion towards the direction against the electric field is known as drift velocity and that is very very slow.
 
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