The Tesla 3 will probably be a bust

[desura]

From the earnings reports, essentially all of Tesla's gross profits on auto sales are used up by the operating side, ie the cost of all those service centers. Tesla's R&D and capital expenditures are financed by new equity offerings and loans. Capital expenditures also only affect profit/loss at a modest level since they have a long lifespan.

When people point out that Tesla has unusually high gross margin (for an American car manufacturer), they forget to mention that it also has high operating costs.

Yeah, each supercharging station must be half a mil, and there are hundreds of them, right? You have to buy the land and equipment and then hire someone to maintain it all. They also employ some guy with a van ready to drive a spare tire to any Tesla driver who gets a flat. And they have custom service centers, right? because most mechanics have no idea how to handle a Tesla. And they own a bunch of mall stores to showcase Tesla products, and they don't rely on entrepreneur dealers, so that is another added cost. And on top of that the usual customer service stuff and recalls, etc.

I never saw how they could be profitable. Especially with Musk keeping on pushing esoteric elitist designs. Even the Model 3 looks a little too sleek IMO.

 

[desura]

They should have made an electric pickup truck instead of the Model 3. The Model 3 resembles the Model S too much and it will likely cannibalize too much of the Model S sales.

Pickup trucks are the most popular vehicles in the USA. I think Musk's cultural snobberies can be seen in the esoteric Model X gull wing doors and in not having a pickup truck yet.

 

[K1052]

They should have made an electric pickup truck instead of the Model 3. The Model 3 resembles the Model S too much and it will likely cannibalize too much of the Model S sales.

Pickup trucks are the most popular vehicles in the USA. I think Musk's cultural snobberies can be seen in the esoteric Model X gull wing doors and in not having a pickup truck yet.

Most people probably aren't cross shopping $68K cars against $35K cars.

 

[WackyDan]

They should have made an electric pickup truck instead of the Model 3. The Model 3 resembles the Model S too much and it will likely cannibalize too much of the Model S sales.

Pickup trucks are the most popular vehicles in the USA. I think Musk's cultural snobberies can be seen in the esoteric Model X gull wing doors and in not having a pickup truck yet.

The S is considered a luxury model compared to the 3. The 3 is an economy EV that is SMALLER than the S.

No... The US market is not ready for an EV pickup truck. The demographic that would buy one just doesn't exist in large numbers. Pickup truck owners want to lift them and hear the V8 through the dual exhaust. WHile I would be ok with the idea of an EV pick up, the main problem for me is that an EV pickup would suck at towing my 8000 pound camper and so forth long distances.

 

[K1052]

No... The US market is not ready for an EV pickup truck. The demographic that would buy one just doesn't exist in large numbers. Pickup truck owners want to lift them and hear the V8 through the dual exhaust. WHile I would be ok with the idea of an EV pick up, the main problem for me is that an EV pickup would suck at towing my 8000 pound camper and so forth long distances.

The market is probably ready for luxury electric SUVs though that don't haul anything heavier than an only child and a few bags from Whole Foods. At least Mercedes and BWM appear to think so. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen such vehicles towing anything.

Pickup tucks will probably be last (if ever) however there seems to be growing interest in fleet users for plug in hybrid trucks. The Workhorse platform appears to be increasingly popular with UPS (among others) and they are supposed to start producing a work truck this year I think.

 

[desura]

Most people probably aren't cross shopping $68K cars against $35K cars.

A lot of people only bought the S for the battery range. Steve Woz is one. He says that he prefers the Bolt now.

They didn't have to create a new platform. They should have simply created a lower trim of the S.

A light pickup truck for hauling appliances and doors and just general contractor stuff would be popular. Also, most people only have trucks as fashion statements. Heavy duty might have to wait, but wouldn't the high torque of electric motors be a good thing here? Trucks are short range vehicles mostly, so you might be able to get away with a lower battery capacity. Also, I believe some Prius owners modified their cars to tow boats, so it can probably be done with a pure electric.

 

[NutBucket]

Creating a lower trim level S cheapens the car and then it will lose it's high end appeal. There are lots of folks buying an S because of image.

 

[K1052]

A lot of people only bought the S for the battery range. Steve Woz is one. He says that he prefers the Bolt now

I submit that Steve Wozniak is not "most people".

 

[desura]

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla-model-s-has-been-an-utter-night.aspx

This is not good. Guy got rear-ended by an uninsured driver. 8 months later the Tesla is still in the repair shop because Tesla didn't send the parts for the repair. Wtf.

If they're having his hard a time with the regular Model s, how can they dream of getting it done with the Model 3?

 

[LTC8K6]

Does anyone know if Tesla cars recognize traffic lights / signs and respond to them?

Was behind a Model S yesterday and it breezed right through a red light as if it was the boss. Pure luck that there was no cross traffic.

Got me to wondering if it obeys traffic laws when it's driving itself, or why it wouldn't, given it's sophisticated self driving capabilities.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I thought the self driving features weren't enabled yet. Only "auto pilot", that matches the speed of the cars in front of you, keeps the car centered in the lane, and can change lanes to pass slower traffic. It can't go point a to b including stop lights and stop signs yet.

I also agree on the utility and likely case for small utility vehicles. Like the Ford Transit Connect (small work van thing)... if they could make one of those in the $40k price I'd think tons of small businesses, delivery vehicles, and govt agencies would want them. 250 miles is fine for most of those vehicles' daily driving probably and you'd have fast chargers all over town for lunch breaks and shift changes to zip them back to full.

I work at an auto shop and most small delivery companies we work with now drive priuses (and have for several years). The ups and FedEx guys probably need bigger trucks but you can see their fleet is facing major service and upkeep issues. Stinky trucks and oil spills all over the ground every time they come by. It must be a lot of work to keep them on the road. Electric would be huge for this industry imo.

 

[desura]

I thought the self driving features weren't enabled yet. Only "auto pilot", that matches the speed of the cars in front of you, keeps the car centered in the lane, and can change lanes to pass slower traffic. It can't go point a to b including stop lights and stop signs yet.

I also agree on the utility and likely case for small utility vehicles. Like the Ford Transit Connect (small work van thing)... if they could make one of those in the $40k price I'd think tons of small businesses, delivery vehicles, and govt agencies would want them. 250 miles is fine for most of those vehicles' daily driving probably and you'd have fast chargers all over town for lunch breaks and shift changes to zip them back to full.

I work at an auto shop and most small delivery companies we work with now drive priuses (and have for several years). The ups and FedEx guys probably need bigger trucks but you can see their fleet is facing major service and upkeep issues. Stinky trucks and oil spills all over the ground every time they come by. It must be a lot of work to keep them on the road. Electric would be huge for this industry imo.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...238-mile-electric-car-shows-challenges-remain

THis lady took her Bolt on a 800 mile trip...

Spent $88 on electric charging. And it was a hassle finding the charging stations and they were not optimal either.

 

[tweakmonkey]

How is that relevant to what I posted? I'm talking about delivery vehicles meaning around town, and these companies would have their own fast chargers. That's not even a Tesla so it can't use the supercharger network (about the only way a road trip in an ev makes sense). The link you posted only reminds us of the obvious fact - non Teslas suck for long drives.

Also, on the cost... you pay way less to charge when you do it at home/work etc. It costs me double to charge my car at school than it does at home and 4x+ to charge at a chargepoint etc.

 

[Yuriman]

800 miles for $88 is roughly equivalent to 20 miles per gallon in terms of cost. A better metric is 11 cents per mile.

Really depends on how much you pay for electricity at home. Here, it's about 17 cents per kWh.

Playing with some numbers:

Nissan Leaf - 24kWh battery, ~21.3kWh usable, 84 miles EPA estimated range
17 cents per kWh means charging to full at home in Vermont is about $3.60 before charging efficiency, which is about 80% at 110v and 90% at 220v. If we assume 85%, that brings us up to ~$4.25 to charge up. That works out to about 5 cents per mile charging at home.

Gasoline here is about $2.20-2.40 per gallon, which is 10-20 cents cheaper than neighboring upstate NY. 5 cents per mile is roughly gasoline equivalent to 46 miles per gallon, which is a little above a Fit and a little below a Prius or Civic hybrid on the highway, and works out to about twice as expensive per mile as my 1st-gen Insight, which admittedly doesn't have the same utility - I can tow 1000lbs behind my car and still get 60mpg, with unlimited range.

I'm not trying to say electric cars are uneconomical, especially with off-lease vehicles being as cheap as they are. At this point it's really a wash, which is impressive to me when I consider how far they've come. I'd probably buy an EV if I did mostly intra-city driving. But, electric cars are not significantly cheaper to operate, either, even if you factor out initial purchase.

 

[desura]

800 miles for $88 is roughly equivalent to 20 miles per gallon in terms of cost. A better metric is 11 cents per mile.

Really depends on how much you pay for electricity at home. Here, it's about 17 cents per kWh.

Playing with some numbers:

Nissan Leaf - 24kWh battery, ~21.3kWh usable, 84 miles EPA estimated range
17 cents per kWh means charging to full at home in Vermont is about $3.60 before charging efficiency, which is about 80% at 110v and 90% at 220v. If we assume 85%, that brings us up to ~$4.25 to charge up. That works out to about 5 cents per mile charging at home.

Gasoline here is about $2.20-2.40 per gallon, which is 10-20 cents cheaper than neighboring upstate NY. 5 cents per mile is roughly gasoline equivalent to 46 miles per gallon, which is a little above a Fit and a little below a Prius or Civic hybrid on the highway, and works out to about twice as expensive per mile as my 1st-gen Insight, which admittedly doesn't have the same utility - I can tow 1000lbs behind my car and still get 60mpg, with unlimited range.

I'm not trying to say electric cars are uneconomical, especially with off-lease vehicles being as cheap as they are. At this point it's really a wash, which is impressive to me when I consider how far they've come. I'd probably buy an EV if I did mostly intra-city driving. But, electric cars are not significantly cheaper to operate, either, even if you factor out initial purchase.

I'm surprised that the infrastructure is so bad for electric cars. I have looked on maps to see charge station and it appears that they are all over, but in practice, she makes it sound pretty bad. And she lives in Cali which is one of the better areas for it.

It does make me reconsider my desire for an electric car probably 5 years from now. I might just stick with plug-in hybrids.

 

[ElFenix]

They didn't have to create a new platform. They should have simply created a lower trim of the S.

Lower trim S? That car is already pretty Spartan.

 

[WackyDan]

800 miles for $88 is roughly equivalent to 20 miles per gallon in terms of cost. A better metric is 11 cents per mile.

Really depends on how much you pay for electricity at home. Here, it's about 17 cents per kWh.

Playing with some numbers:

Nissan Leaf - 24kWh battery, ~21.3kWh usable, 84 miles EPA estimated range
17 cents per kWh means charging to full at home in Vermont is about $3.60 before charging efficiency, which is about 80% at 110v and 90% at 220v. If we assume 85%, that brings us up to ~$4.25 to charge up. That works out to about 5 cents per mile charging at home.

Gasoline here is about $2.20-2.40 per gallon, which is 10-20 cents cheaper than neighboring upstate NY. 5 cents per mile is roughly gasoline equivalent to 46 miles per gallon, which is a little above a Fit and a little below a Prius or Civic hybrid on the highway, and works out to about twice as expensive per mile as my 1st-gen Insight, which admittedly doesn't have the same utility - I can tow 1000lbs behind my car and still get 60mpg, with unlimited range.

I'm not trying to say electric cars are uneconomical, especially with off-lease vehicles being as cheap as they are. At this point it's really a wash, which is impressive to me when I consider how far they've come. I'd probably buy an EV if I did mostly intra-city driving. But, electric cars are not significantly cheaper to operate, either, even if you factor out initial purchase.

I'll disagree in part.

I pay .08 per kWh here in NC. Gas is sitting about $2.20 currently.

AS for EV's costing the same as ICE or being a wash....

• I don't have to change the oil on an EV
• I don't have to worry about other maintenance related to an ICE
• I don't have the same complexity in drive train that might require attention.

I do believe in more savings than just the cost of charging as compared to gas. The additional time savings in avoiding maintenance is a plus too. I have a model 3 on reservation. Fits our use case just fine and I have two other motor vehicles for unlimited range and towing anyway.

 

[K1052]

I'm surprised that the infrastructure is so bad for electric cars. I have looked on maps to see charge station and it appears that they are all over, but in practice, she makes it sound pretty bad. And she lives in Cali which is one of the better areas for it.

It does make me reconsider my desire for an electric car probably 5 years from now. I might just stick with plug-in hybrids.

I read her story and yes CCS charging is still spotty in much of CA and some of the chargers (Chargepoint) only push 25kw. There are tons of level 2 chargers but they are of limited utility on a long distance trip. My main takeaways from the trip she took is that she drives too fast in a car with questionable aerodynamics and didn't pick somewhere to stay overnight that had destination charging. Non-Tesla infrastructure still has a ways to go but the kind of trip she took would be more easily doable, and cheaper, minus a couple avoidable mistakes.

The availability of the charging network is one more reason that I have a Model 3 reservation as a contender to replace my BMW i3 Rex when the lease is up.

 

[Yuriman]

I'll disagree in part.

I pay .08 per kWh here in NC. Gas is sitting about $2.20 currently.

AS for EV's costing the same as ICE or being a wash....

• I don't have to change the oil on an EV
• I don't have to worry about other maintenance related to an ICE
• I don't have the same complexity in drive train that might require attention.

I do believe in more savings than just the cost of charging as compared to gas. The additional time savings in avoiding maintenance is a plus too. I have a model 3 on reservation. Fits our use case just fine and I have two other motor vehicles for unlimited range and towing anyway.

I have a 17 year old hybrid vehicle which has only ever needed oil changes every 10k miles, 2 12v batteries, and some tires. It's still on factory brake pads and spark plugs. The factory hybrid battery doesn't have nearly the same capacity as when it was new, but in a hybrid it isn't really a big deal if you're down to only ~40% original capacity, it still functions as it should. What other maintenance are you referring to?

I do my own oil changes. I have a fumoto valve which I can reach just by opening the hood, and kick a catch pan underneath the car, and the total process takes 10 minutes. It takes 2.6 quarts of oil, with a $4 filter, and I use Mobile One so we can round it up to $20 per change. The car has had 22 oil changes, totaling ~$440. I changed the transmission fluid once (5MT) but it's a sealed unit and the fluid going out looked like the fluid I put in. The car's tracked lifetime fuel economy is 67mpg as per the computer, which includes lots of city driving and light towing. I have a small cargo trailer I use frequently and, as an example, a few weeks back I pulled an F150 out of a ditch after a fresh snow.

Admittedly this isn't your typical ICE vehicle, but how will your big EV battery be doing in 17 years? How far will you be able to go before charging? NiMH was chosen for hybrids in part because it ages much better than most lithium chemistries and, even when the battery does finally quit holding a charge at all, I can still drive around at 70mpg on gasoline alone, if with a bit less spunk.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I have a 17 year old hybrid vehicle which has only ever needed oil changes every 10k miles, 2 12v batteries, and some tires. It's still on factory brake pads and spark plugs. The factory hybrid battery doesn't have nearly the same capacity as when it was new, but in a hybrid it isn't really a big deal if you're down to only ~40% original capacity, it still functions as it should. What other maintenance are you referring to?

As a former Insight owner (I had one for 7 years, plus two co-workers at our shop also had them for several years) and now a current owner an EV I've gotta say you seem a bit delusional. You're using what is by far one of the cheapest cars to operate of all time, that you bought after its full depreciation, and is a tiny (1800 lbs) 2 seater with mountains of rattly tradeoffs as a justification for EVs being less efficient than gas cars.

The Insight is a fantastic car, don't get me wrong. I loved mine. The engine is very reliable, and requires very little upkeep.

But it has a gas engine, therefore it will eventually need all of these parts that WILL eventually wear out, possibly all at 200k, 300k etc.. but they will die:
-Valve seals
-Bottom end bearings
-Valve adjustments (http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...alve-adjustment-proceedure-write-up-pics.html)
-Piston rings (it will burn oil eventually, if it doesn't already. Mine did by 160k, but not a lot)
-Oil pump (maybe at 500k, but some day)
-Oil changes should be every 7500 miles and once a year minimum
-Engine air filter
-Spark plugs (I changed mine every 100k. If you take them out you'll see they look awful by then. Also they're expensive on these cars)
-Injectors (eventually!), injector seals, fuel pump (maybe 200-300k depending on luck), fuel filters
-Clutch master and slave cylinders (these are notorious to fail on Insights and S2000s around 150k miles)
-Timing chain
-Timing chain tensioner
-Water pump and all related plumbing
-Mass air sensor
-Catalytic converter (mine threw a P0420 check engine lighat round 150k and it was always triggering this light. I guarantee the stock cat was failing. Google it, super common on Insights.)
-O2 sensors at the same time
-Muffler, exhaust manifold (maybe t'll last 500k miles)
-Clutch disc, pressure plate, and flywheel (mine was heavily worn by 130k miles and shuddered badly by the time I sold it at 200k. If your IMA goes, the clutch takes WAY more abuse because the long gearing)
-12V Starter motor (if your IMA dies, you'll have to use this instead)
-PCV, EGR, EVAP, related vac and fuel lines...

I could go on, but to use your reliable car as evidence that it will never require maintenance is silly. Shit breaks on gas cars all the time, especially over miles and years. They generate much more heat and have way more moving parts than an EV. I have a parts catalog and a huge repair manual for the Insight. It wouldn't exist if they didn't break.

I do my own oil changes. I have a fumoto valve which I can reach just by opening the hood, and kick a catch pan underneath the car, and the total process takes 10 minutes. It takes 2.6 quarts of oil, with a $4 filter, and I use Mobile One so we can round it up to $20 per change. The car has had 22 oil changes, totaling ~$440. I changed the transmission fluid once (5MT) but it's a sealed unit and the fluid going out looked like the fluid I put in.

Cool, but not everyone can do that. Oil changes can be a burden for many people that live in apartments or houses that don't have tools. Also your engine is extremely small (1 liter, 3 cyl) compared to most people. I work at an auto shop and have all those tools, and oil changes still suck because I have to bring it here and spend an hour on the lift, buy oil filters, buy oil, empty our barrel sooner because of it and so-on. That hassle is multiplied as an engine gets bigger. Even if you don't do the work, you have to take the car somewhere and wait for it, get a rental car, follow-up and so-on.

My girlfriend has a Honda Fit. I do all her oil changes. It sucks that I have to take her car to work on those days and service it. I'd rather drive my EV.

The car's tracked lifetime fuel economy is 67mpg as per the computer, which includes lots of city driving and light towing. I have a small cargo trailer I use frequently and, as an example, a few weeks back I pulled an F150 out of a ditch after a fresh snow.

Admittedly this isn't your typical ICE vehicle, but how will your big EV battery be doing in 17 years?

Time will tell but look at the Teslas and first gen Lithium EVs. They're good so far. How's the NIMH battery going to be? Dead. I know because I have replaced 3 of these on Insights. And my co-workers original Rav4 EV was traded in when the NIMH battery died and the replacement was $15k.

How far will you be able to go before charging? NiMH was chosen for hybrids in part because it ages much better than most lithium chemistries and, even when the battery does finally quit holding a charge at all, I can still drive around at 70mpg on gasoline alone, if with a bit less spunk.

The car is GUTLESS without the IMA. 0-60 feels like 20 seconds, and the 0-30 is borderline dangerous. Also it's going to put more wear and tear on all the ICE components and really mixed driving gets about 45 MPG like that. Not 70 except at freeway speeds. I had mine disabled for 2-months while I waited on a replacement for the NIMH battery back when they were less common and only one guy was making them. It cost me about $1300 to replace myself then. Try turning it off for a couple weeks and you'll see how bad the car is without it.

NIMH was chosen at the time your car was created because it was the best part. Now it's not. New hybrids use Lithium AFAIK.

Lithium Ion was new, not practical, and not cheap at the time your car was created. NIMH has much lower density, so putting those in an EV means the battery pack weighs 50%+ more. If NIMH was still the best choice I think Tesla and others would be using them. Maybe this will all change with new battery chemistry in the future.

Hybrid batteries also see WAY more charge/discharge cycles than EVs, and that's what kills both types of these batteries. If you drive an Insight around town for 2 hours you might go through a dozen charge cycles. An EV (especially a Tesla or Bolt) would use one charge cycle every 240 miles. Hybrid batteries should wear out faster than large EV batteries. They're being used way more frequently.

800 miles for $88 is roughly equivalent to 20 miles per gallon in terms of cost. A better metric is 11 cents per mile.

Really depends on how much you pay for electricity at home. Here, it's about 17 cents per kWh.

Playing with some numbers:

Nissan Leaf - 24kWh battery, ~21.3kWh usable, 84 miles EPA estimated range
17 cents per kWh means charging to full at home in Vermont is about $3.60 before charging efficiency, which is about 80% at 110v and 90% at 220v. If we assume 85%, that brings us up to ~$4.25 to charge up. That works out to about 5 cents per mile charging at home.

Gasoline here is about $2.20-2.40 per gallon, which is 10-20 cents cheaper than neighboring upstate NY. 5 cents per mile is roughly gasoline equivalent to 46 miles per gallon, which is a little above a Fit and a little below a Prius or Civic hybrid on the highway, and works out to about twice as expensive per mile as my 1st-gen Insight, which admittedly doesn't have the same utility - I can tow 1000lbs behind my car and still get 60mpg, with unlimited range.

I don't believe you can get 60 MPG towing a 1000 lb trailer unless it's streamlined and you're driving like 30 MPH. Also you're doing something pretty dangerous to be towing a 1000 lb trailer in an 1800 lb aluminum car designed to carry only 380 pounds including the driver, passenger, and cargo. You've got range, that's for sure. That's the real advantage of an ICE, and luckily I have 4 cars in my household for 2 people so I have a lot of choices. I know not everyone's this lucky and that's why I'm arguing only the cost benefits of EVs, not the practicality here.

I'm not trying to say electric cars are uneconomical, especially with off-lease vehicles being as cheap as they are. At this point it's really a wash, which is impressive to me when I consider how far they've come. I'd probably buy an EV if I did mostly intra-city driving. But, electric cars are not significantly cheaper to operate, either, even if you factor out initial purchase.

Ignoring all the maintenance of our gas cars, 87 octane is $2.67/gallon average here. My girlfriend's Fit averages 35 MPG mostly freeway driving. This works out to $0.076 per mile before the maintenance, oil changes, time spent at gas stations, etc. Until we were switched to solar/wind, I monitored our electricity usage with the Smart meter system several times a week and our EV was going 45 miles (our average daily use) on 10.56 kW at $0.11 - $0.12/kWH. This works out to $1.16 - $1.27, or about $0.026 to $0.028 per mile, considerably less than even my Insight cost to run gas at 60 MPG and 1/3 the cost of the Fit. Gas is cheaper there and electricity is more there - so that benefits the gas car. Maybe if you have an EV you can get a power plan with cheaper rates at night (we did).

I'm sure many people in California are buying EVs because they are more economical here. We did the math and the EV is much cheaper. We drive the EV everywhere we can, especially on weekends and around town errands, short out of town trips etc. It's also quieter, more comfy (since the Fit is a buzzy high revving car at freeway speeds), and a lot zippier. She only uses the Fit for commuting, when we need the luggage space, or for long drives which we make a couple times per year. This way we have to do minimal maintenance on it and gas stops. Time = Money. Speaking of which, this is the biggest post I've ever made!

IMO the only gamble is the lithium drive battery. If it fails or needs repair, all this may be moot. If it doesn't in the time you own it, the EV is way cheaper from what I've seen, and saves a lot of time, especially if you get a used one. If it's cheapish, you might still come out ahead.

 

[desura]

As a former Insight owner (I had one for 7 years, plus two co-workers at our shop also had them for several years) and now a current owner an EV I've gotta say you seem a bit delusional. You're using what is by far one of the cheapest cars to operate of all time, that you bought after its full depreciation, and is a tiny (1800 lbs) 2 seater with mountains of rattly tradeoffs as a justification for EVs being less efficient than gas cars.

The Insight is a fantastic car, don't get me wrong. I loved mine. The engine is very reliable, and requires very little upkeep.

But it has a gas engine, therefore it will eventually need all of these parts that WILL eventually wear out, possibly all at 200k, 300k etc.. but they will die:
-Valve seals
-Bottom end bearings
-Valve adjustments (http://www.insightcentral.net/forum...alve-adjustment-proceedure-write-up-pics.html)
-Piston rings (it will burn oil eventually, if it doesn't already. Mine did by 160k, but not a lot)
-Oil pump (maybe at 500k, but some day)
-Oil changes should be every 7500 miles and once a year minimum
-Engine air filter
-Spark plugs (I changed mine every 100k. If you take them out you'll see they look awful by then. Also they're expensive on these cars)
-Injectors (eventually!), injector seals, fuel pump (maybe 200-300k depending on luck), fuel filters
-Clutch master and slave cylinders (these are notorious to fail on Insights and S2000s around 150k miles)
-Timing chain
-Timing chain tensioner
-Water pump and all related plumbing
-Mass air sensor
-Catalytic converter (mine threw a P0420 check engine lighat round 150k and it was always triggering this light. I guarantee the stock cat was failing. Google it, super common on Insights.)
-O2 sensors at the same time
-Muffler, exhaust manifold (maybe t'll last 500k miles)
-Clutch disc, pressure plate, and flywheel (mine was heavily worn by 130k miles and shuddered badly by the time I sold it at 200k. If your IMA goes, the clutch takes WAY more abuse because the long gearing)
-12V Starter motor (if your IMA dies, you'll have to use this instead)
-PCV, EGR, EVAP, related vac and fuel lines...

I could go on, but to use your reliable car as evidence that it will never require maintenance is silly. Shit breaks on gas cars all the time, especially over miles and years. They generate much more heat and have way more moving parts than an EV. I have a parts catalog and a huge repair manual for the Insight. It wouldn't exist if they didn't break.



Cool, but not everyone can do that. Oil changes can be a burden for many people that live in apartments or houses that don't have tools. Also your engine is extremely small (1 liter, 3 cyl) compared to most people. I work at an auto shop and have all those tools, and oil changes still suck because I have to bring it here and spend an hour on the lift, buy oil filters, buy oil, empty our barrel sooner because of it and so-on. That hassle is multiplied as an engine gets bigger. Even if you don't do the work, you have to take the car somewhere and wait for it, get a rental car, follow-up and so-on.

My girlfriend has a Honda Fit. I do all her oil changes. It sucks that I have to take her car to work on those days and service it. I'd rather drive my EV.



Time will tell but look at the Teslas and first gen Lithium EVs. They're good so far. How's the NIMH battery going to be? Dead. I know because I have replaced 3 of these on Insights. And my co-workers original Rav4 EV was traded in when the NIMH battery died and the replacement was $15k.



The car is GUTLESS without the IMA. 0-60 feels like 20 seconds, and the 0-30 is borderline dangerous. Also it's going to put more wear and tear on all the ICE components and really mixed driving gets about 45 MPG like that. Not 70 except at freeway speeds. I had mine disabled for 2-months while I waited on a replacement for the NIMH battery back when they were less common and only one guy was making them. It cost me about $1300 to replace myself then. Try turning it off for a couple weeks and you'll see how bad the car is without it.

NIMH was chosen at the time your car was created because it was the best part. Now it's not. New hybrids use Lithium AFAIK.

Lithium Ion was new, not practical, and not cheap at the time your car was created. NIMH has much lower density, so putting those in an EV means the battery pack weighs 50%+ more. If NIMH was still the best choice I think Tesla and others would be using them. Maybe this will all change with new battery chemistry in the future.

Hybrid batteries also see WAY more charge/discharge cycles than EVs, and that's what kills both types of these batteries. If you drive an Insight around town for 2 hours you might go through a dozen charge cycles. An EV (especially a Tesla or Bolt) would use one charge cycle every 240 miles. Hybrid batteries should wear out faster than large EV batteries. They're being used way more frequently.


I don't believe you can get 60 MPG towing a 1000 lb trailer unless it's streamlined and you're driving like 30 MPH. Also you're doing something pretty dangerous to be towing a 1000 lb trailer in an 1800 lb aluminum car designed to carry only 380 pounds including the driver, passenger, and cargo. You've got range, that's for sure. That's the real advantage of an ICE, and luckily I have 4 cars in my household for 2 people so I have a lot of choices. I know not everyone's this lucky and that's why I'm arguing only the cost benefits of EVs, not the practicality here.



Ignoring all the maintenance of our gas cars, 87 octane is $2.67/gallon average here. My girlfriend's Fit averages 35 MPG mostly freeway driving. This works out to $0.076 per mile before the maintenance, oil changes, time spent at gas stations, etc. Until we were switched to solar/wind, I monitored our electricity usage with the Smart meter system several times a week and our EV was going 45 miles (our average daily use) on 10.56 kW at $0.11 - $0.12/kWH. This works out to $1.16 - $1.27, or about $0.026 to $0.028 per mile, considerably less than even my Insight cost to run gas at 60 MPG and 1/3 the cost of the Fit. Gas is cheaper there and electricity is more there - so that benefits the gas car. Maybe if you have an EV you can get a power plan with cheaper rates at night (we did).

I'm sure many people in California are buying EVs because they are more economical here. We did the math and the EV is much cheaper. We drive the EV everywhere we can, especially on weekends and around town errands, short out of town trips etc. It's also quieter, more comfy (since the Fit is a buzzy high revving car at freeway speeds), and a lot zippier. She only uses the Fit for commuting, when we need the luggage space, or for long drives which we make a couple times per year. This way we have to do minimal maintenance on it and gas stops. Time = Money. Speaking of which, this is the biggest post I've ever made!

IMO the only gamble is the lithium drive battery. If it fails or needs repair, all this may be moot. If it doesn't in the time you own it, the EV is way cheaper from what I've seen, and saves a lot of time, especially if you get a used one. If it's cheapish, you might still come out ahead.

A lot of wear in lithium batteries relies on how they are taken care of. I've heard that Tesla and GM Volts hold up pretty well because they liquid cool their batteries. The Nissan Leaf has really bad deterioration from what I have heard because they have no cooling at all for the batteries.

I have heard stories of early Teslas having to replace electric motors.

I wonder how much it would cost to install an electric charging station in a parking lot. If I owned a restaurant I would do this as electric car people probably would be good customers.

 

[Fardringle]

Does anyone know if Tesla cars recognize traffic lights / signs and respond to them?

Was behind a Model S yesterday and it breezed right through a red light as if it was the boss. Pure luck that there was no cross traffic.

Got me to wondering if it obeys traffic laws when it's driving itself, or why it wouldn't, given it's sophisticated self driving capabilities.

I'd say it's more likely that it was not in self-driving mode and the driver just ignored the light.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

GM has a phenomenal EV charger network - all they have to due is take their massive dealer network of Cadillac, Buick, GM and Chevy dealers and install chargers that can be accessed 24/7.

Cadillac alone has 900 dealers.

 

[Kaido]

Tesla Model 3 - first drive of the Release Candidate:

 

[sontakke]

is it piping artificial noise outside?