The threat of godless ideologies

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: judasmachine
This whole premise is stupid. More xenophobia by the religious right. If you are not a Christian out there picketing Planned Parenthood then you are a threat and must be converted or destroyed. You people never stop, you're like a virus, and you won't stop until the whole planet has be remade in your image. Do you not know that this planet would rather die first. Your victory will be a Pyrrhic one. Scorched earth is what you'll inherit.

Who's trying to destroy you?

As long as there are those that are lost, there will be others trying to show them the light.

That's just it, when you bring other cultures to your way, you effectively destroy that way of life. I personally feel that how one lives is his own morality, and he doesn't nessecarily need the morality of others. Beyond a basic understanding that the other has his way too. Your kind did actually try and for the most part succeed in destroying my culture.

You have tunnel vision. Jesus was a great guy in my book, but those who claim to follow him have done some horrible things in his name.

 

[Taejin]

Don't bother, judasmachine.

Riprorin has yet to address the atrocity our forefather's committed. And many settlers committed in the name of God and conversion.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Taejin
Don't bother, judasmachine.

Riprorin has yet to address the atrocity our forefather's committed. And many settlers committed in the name of God and conversion.

Yeah you're probably right. Again, he has tunnel vision. I will applaud him for his conviction, but his misunderstanding of it is just sad.

On the grander scale, I just feel that everyone has and deserves their own culture. If this makes me some whacko then so be it. I think Nature has succeeded by diversity. This homogenization of culture cannot be good. We will never evolve if we don't face adversity. The more sameness, the less adversity. The less adversity, the less we'll evolve.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

OK, I'm apparently not making something clear to you. Let's start simply:

The good: That which benefits or improves life in a rational manner (eg, without the need to sacrifice or be sacrificed by others)

The evil: That which harms or destroys life in an irrational manner (eg unprovoked attack, fraud, etc.)

Now, I do good because, yes, properly defined, it benefits my life without directly or intentionally harming others. That's simplified, but valid.

I do NOT do evil, but it isn't out of threat of punishment. For example, even if I knew I COULD get away with killing my annoying neighbor I STILL wouldn't do it. WHY? Because I place value on human life and on the idea that each man *ought* to be free to live as he believes so long as he doesn't sacrifice others to himself.

It is VERY important that you understand the difference here. I carefully try to consider what is good and what is evil and what falls into the "cracks" between those two extremes and stay within the "good" area not because of fear of punishment, but because I CARE about doing what I believe is RIGHT. There's a WORLD of difference between a man who is "good" merely out of fear of punishment and the man who is "good" because he actually *wants* to be good.

A lawless society isn't something I would ever advocate. The rule of law should be considered sacred, but it's also important not to hold it so sacred that we don't question it or hold it accountable "to the people" by means of a system of checks and balances in the courts, legislature and executive. Authority IS important, but it should by no means be supreme. There should never be such a thing as an authority so great that it can choose who lives or dies or has what rights based solely on whim or belief rather than based on reason and Natural Law. Man must ALWAYS be free to question, to judge, to choose how he lives, what values he holds and what life he leads. The ONLY limitations upon this are that there can be no such thing as the "freedom" to sacrifice others to oneself. That's not freedom--it's barbarism.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: Taejin
Don't bother, judasmachine.

Riprorin has yet to address the atrocity our forefather's committed. And many settlers committed in the name of God and conversion.

Yeah you're probably right. Again, he has tunnel vision. I will applaud him for his conviction, but his misunderstanding of it is just sad.

On the grander scale, I just feel that everyone has and deserves their own culture. If this makes me some whacko then so be it. I think Nature has succeeded by diversity. This homogenization of culture cannot be good. We will never evolve if we don't face adversity. The more sameness, the less adversity. The less adversity, the less we'll evolve.

You're right, but I do think there are certain limitations. Just as an example, we should never grant validity to cultures that feel they have the right to murder or oppress others without provocation or reason. Just as an example, the middle-eastern (potentially Islamic, though that seems hotly debated right now) view that Palestinians and Isrealites have some devine justification to blow each other up at every turn should NOT be considered just another part of diversity to be tolerated.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: judasmachine
This whole premise is stupid. More xenophobia by the religious right. If you are not a Christian out there picketing Planned Parenthood then you are a threat and must be converted or destroyed. You people never stop, you're like a virus, and you won't stop until the whole planet has be remade in your image. Do you not know that this planet would rather die first. Your victory will be a Pyrrhic one. Scorched earth is what you'll inherit.

Who's trying to destroy you?

As long as there are those that are lost, there will be others trying to show them the light.

And there will be those of us who enjoy the humorous irony that those most in the dark would so desperately try to show others the light!

Jason

We were all created for a purpose: to serve our Creator. Life is really about living for God not self.

Without a personal relationship with God, life makes no sense.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: judasmachine
This whole premise is stupid. More xenophobia by the religious right. If you are not a Christian out there picketing Planned Parenthood then you are a threat and must be converted or destroyed. You people never stop, you're like a virus, and you won't stop until the whole planet has be remade in your image. Do you not know that this planet would rather die first. Your victory will be a Pyrrhic one. Scorched earth is what you'll inherit.

Who's trying to destroy you?

As long as there are those that are lost, there will be others trying to show them the light.

And there will be those of us who enjoy the humorous irony that those most in the dark would so desperately try to show others the light!

Jason

We were all created for a purpose: to serve our Creator. Life is really about living for God not self.

Without a personal relationship with God, life makes no sense.

Sorry, I refuse to be a tool for some mythical entity.

 

[kage69]

We were all created for a purpose: to serve our Creator. Life is really about living for God not self. Without a personal relationship with God, life makes no sense.

Rip, from one hunter to another: get help.

 

[SuperTool]

If god wanted you to believe in him, why did he give you a brain? Think about it.

 

[sao123]

If God only wanted brainless worship & love he could have the rocks & trees do that.

Authentic love and worship must come from the heart and be a decision made within the realm of free choice.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
We were all created for a purpose: to serve our Creator. Life is really about living for God not self.

Without a personal relationship with God, life makes no sense.

What a very narrow, sad view of the world you have.

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." --John Galt, Atlas Shrugged.

Jason

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: judasmachine
This whole premise is stupid. More xenophobia by the religious right. If you are not a Christian out there picketing Planned Parenthood then you are a threat and must be converted or destroyed. You people never stop, you're like a virus, and you won't stop until the whole planet has be remade in your image. Do you not know that this planet would rather die first. Your victory will be a Pyrrhic one. Scorched earth is what you'll inherit.

Who's trying to destroy you?

As long as there are those that are lost, there will be others trying to show them the light.

And there will be those of us who enjoy the humorous irony that those most in the dark would so desperately try to show others the light!

Jason

We were all created for a purpose: to serve our Creator. Life is really about living for God not self.

Without a personal relationship with God, life makes no sense.

Sorry, I refuse to be a tool for some mythical entity.

Your choice.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: sao123
If God only wanted brainless worship & love he could have the rocks & trees do that.

Authentic love and worship must come from the heart and be a decision made within the realm of free choice.

So what's the reason for baptism? Clearly a baby doesn't have any free choice?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Who's views are shared with many other systems and not only Christian.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.
[/quote]

Uh, yeah...right. It's unsettling to see one as self-deluded as you are. I hope you get help.

Jason

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Are you saying it's OK to kill from Buddhist perspective?
At least after millenia of persecuting Jews it's now Judeo-Christian.
Maybe by year 4000, you'll get that it's common sense.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: sao123

I will repeat it again for you.

Given: A uneducated child will exhibit this exact form of behavior and will continue in this path until it is taught to exhibit moral behavior.
Given: This applies to every child including the first child ever born.
Conclusion: No human could ever be the first to exhibit morallity. It had to come from some external source.

Bullsh8! Kind and ethical behavior make sense from an engineering perspective because it is a more efficient, preferred social model. If you think about it, most of the ten commandments are a bunch of rules intended to keep a small microcosm of wandering Jews from self descructing while running across the desert for years, and most of then are based on the theory of avoiding BAD VIBES.

Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't hit on your friend's SO. Why? Easy -- It causes BAD VIBES in the society.

Honor your father and mother. Why? They took care of you when you were too young to do it for yourself. Now that they're older, it's your turn to return the favor. Anything else causes BAD VIBES.

Honor the sabbath. Why? Without rest, human beings burn out and get mean. In other words, it causes (yep, you guessed it) BAD VIBES. For convenience, we'll all do it on the same day.

The same is true for all but one of the commandments, the first. When your society is so small and so busy taking care of merely supporting life, and you don't have enough manpower for a police. So, when the question arises, why we should obey these laws, the answer is GOD SAID SO! and all the little sheep people say Oh! and comply without question. :Q

The good news is, for the most part, the underlying rules are just common sense. The bad news is, too many idiots think some kind of deity is necessary for it to be so. The truth is, it isn't. The truth is, it doesn't take freaking god to figure that out society is better off, and certainly more enjoyable, when people don't act like assholes and cause bad vibes. No deity required.

Stupid people should not be allowed to post in the highly technical forum.

It's still in your sig, so I will repeat it for you -- By that reasoning, closed minded dogmatists should not be allowed to post in a P&amp;N. < hint > < hint > :beer:

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: aidanjm
Man's soul isn't evil, it just is what it is. The nature of man is that we are cooperative, for the most part, particularly with those we see as being part of our own little group (or tribe, city, nation, race). It has obviously been advantageous for us to cooperate with each-other throughout 'our' (humans') evolutionary history. It is also a part of man's nature to be suspicious of people who we perceive as different to ourselves; and this suspicion easily turns to hatred if we are not careful, leading to fighting, war. (As long as we maintain our notion of some people being the same as us, and some people being different to us, we can be cooperative and war-like simultaneously.) I'd guess a certain amount of suspicion of other 'tribes' would also have been advantageous during our evolutionary history.

Man is born "Tabula Rasa" (that's Blank Slate for those of you who didn't pay attention in Latin). He can be "programmed" to be good or to be evil or any variation in between. Unfortunately most parents, most PEOPLE, don't consider the importance of that programming, even when they become educated enough to program *themselves*. As a result they end up a hodge-podge of platitudes and beliefs that may or may not have any real relationship with the world we live in.

Sad, really. Man is born with SO much potential, and it is so rarely explored to its fullest.

Jason

Jason, I agree with a great deal of what you've been saying in this thread, however I'm not sure that this idea of man as "blank slate" at birth is terribly credible.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Uh, yeah...right. It's unsettling to see one as self-deluded as you are. I hope you get help.

Jason[/quote]

Thanks for sharing. All the best and Merry Christmas!

-Charlie

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: aidanjm
Man's soul isn't evil, it just is what it is. The nature of man is that we are cooperative, for the most part, particularly with those we see as being part of our own little group (or tribe, city, nation, race). It has obviously been advantageous for us to cooperate with each-other throughout 'our' (humans') evolutionary history. It is also a part of man's nature to be suspicious of people who we perceive as different to ourselves; and this suspicion easily turns to hatred if we are not careful, leading to fighting, war. (As long as we maintain our notion of some people being the same as us, and some people being different to us, we can be cooperative and war-like simultaneously.) I'd guess a certain amount of suspicion of other 'tribes' would also have been advantageous during our evolutionary history.

Man is born "Tabula Rasa" (that's Blank Slate for those of you who didn't pay attention in Latin). He can be "programmed" to be good or to be evil or any variation in between. Unfortunately most parents, most PEOPLE, don't consider the importance of that programming, even when they become educated enough to program *themselves*. As a result they end up a hodge-podge of platitudes and beliefs that may or may not have any real relationship with the world we live in.

Sad, really. Man is born with SO much potential, and it is so rarely explored to its fullest.

Jason

Jason, I agree with a great deal of what you've been saying in this thread, however I'm not sure that this idea of man as "blank slate" at birth is terribly credible.

Fair enough, perhaps you would care to tell me why that is? I'll sum up my position a little better:

Man is born with certain *genetic* predispositions, but no two men are born with precisely the *same* genetic predispositions.

Genetic predispositions are only *part* of the equation; his mind, meaning his particular "store of knowledge and experience", is completely blank. The possible exception I can think of to this is that there *are* some who theories that certain kind of intense memories may become hard-coded into the genetic structure of parents and get passed on in some form to their kids. This isn't conclusive, but I've heard the theory from more than one source.

In any case, it's the *combination* of a man's genetic predispositions and his life experiences that make up who he becomes. He is not, however, inherently good nor inherently evil; he can make the choice to become one or the other.

Jason

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: sao123

Ok... if we want to play the hypothetical game.... if I was the leader of a group of cavemen, I would say the reasoning is that first there needs to be unity and we need to work together. We need to rely on each other for survival and if you don't we'll all die. Hence, comes the first rule and probably a good start in the direction of morality. "Don't do to others which you don't want done to yourself."

This comes from you...an educated man. If you were an uneducated cave man... I believe things would be more like survival of the fittest. This is my cave, my food, my fire, and my woman.

A child does not need to be taught how to be greedy, it comes natural. A child needs to be taught how to share. No human could have ever invented this concept of cooperation if he had not previously experienced it in some form. It had to come from some non-human origin, henceforth again some sort of necessary deity to create civilization out of anarchy.

Ah, so because YOU cannot conceive of any notion of charity or good will or cooperation without being told to do so, you assume that all of the rest of mankind is as base and morally bereft as yourself?

Jason

Mankind is base and morally berefit. As you pointed out, you help others out of selfish motives.

What's good about being selfish?

it makes the world go 'round?

 

[sao123]

It's still in your sig, so I will repeat it for you -- By that reasoning, closed minded dogmatists should not be allowed to post in a P&amp;N.


Bush LIED! Over 1200 American troops DIED!
Bush LIED! Thousands more people DIED!
Bush LIED! The U.S. Constitution DIED!

Neither should narrow-minded Californian Democrats.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Are you saying it's OK to kill from Buddhist perspective?
At least after millenia of persecuting Jews it's now Judeo-Christian.
Maybe by year 4000, you'll get that it's common sense.

You say that you don't advocate a lawless society. Neither do I. Thats why I'm glas that our laws have their basis in the Ten Commandments.