The threat of godless ideologies

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Are you saying it's OK to kill from Buddhist perspective?
At least after millenia of persecuting Jews it's now Judeo-Christian.
Maybe by year 4000, you'll get that it's common sense.

You say that you don't advocate a lawless society. Neither do I. Thats why I'm glas that our laws have their basis in the Ten Commandments.

your statements do not follow... what would logically follow is "that is why i'm glad that we have laws". where do the ten commandments come into play?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Are you saying it's OK to kill from Buddhist perspective?
At least after millenia of persecuting Jews it's now Judeo-Christian.
Maybe by year 4000, you'll get that it's common sense.

You say that you don't advocate a lawless society. Neither do I. Thats why I'm glas that our laws have their basis in the Ten Commandments.

your statements do not follow... what would logically follow is "that is why i'm glad that we have laws". where do the ten commandments come into play?

I think a good democrat said it best:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

I think a good democrat said it best:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

And yet some other famous person ratified something that went along the lines of....

"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion..."

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

 

[gopunk]

You say that you don't advocate a lawless society. Neither do I. Thats why I'm glas that our laws have their basis in the Ten Commandments.

your statements do not follow... what would logically follow is "that is why i'm glad that we have laws". where do the ten commandments come into play?

I think a good democrat said it best:

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." - Democratic President Harry S. Truman

then the reason you are glad that our laws are based in part on the ten commandments, is not because you do not advocate a lawless society (as you implied), but because you don't want to end up with a totalitarian government. the "that's why" part of your post throws everything off.

 

[mossad]

Lets look into this Christian leaders "BASE" and family history looks like a bunch of little hitlers to me.

 

[chevas]

First, we need to establish that whether you are a Christian or not, PEOPLE are just screwed up in general. Christians are people too, and Christianity has made mistakes. Athiests are people too and athiesm has made mistakes. Religious fanaticism and Godless fanaticism is fueled by people who make mistakes. So, when you take out the variable of people, what is the ideology or faith that you want to be left with?

You can bitch and complain all you want about how some group here wronged this group there, and how this people here killed that people group over there...It just goes to show how rampant selfish indulgence | group think mentalities | lack of any accountability | people's good intentions that turn into desutrctive forces all contribute to atrocities, current and historical.

As good as it is to weigh in the negative and the positive, there has been a gross imbalance of emphasis on the negative. What good has come from any of these things? Personally, when people are removed from the equation, I'd rather be left with God. A lot of you probably all developed your ideologies | faiths from books. We wouldn't have books without the influence of Christianity because there wouldn't be a printing press. You probably are learned how to read those books in school and we wouldn't have had public education if it wasn't for Christianity's influence in developing public education. All of our ivy league schools in the USA were Christian universities in their beginnings. There are places in the world where people don't have great moral judgements like we do. Those places are scarcely influenced by Christianity. The reason any of us have the capacity to make moral judgements on what is right and wrong is because of the influence of God.

I'm not denying that there are good things that come out of other ideologies | faiths, but looking at the whole, I think Christianity is the most honest about people: we're screwed up. It lays bare how screwed up we are and how there is no hero in history, no heroic thinking or ideology that will fix our plight. There is no peace and no "tolerance" that can enable people to live in total peace because people cannot agree on what that means. There is no system that can function, no philosophy that can solve, no culture that can satisfy, no theory that can prove what will work and mend the world's problems.

The world's problem is people and people's problem is sin, and the only hero that can come out of the whole ordeal is God because he's the only one who doesn't screw things up. He showed perfect love and sacrificed his Son Jesus. Jesus is the only hero and the only solution to any of our problems. Call me preachy, but chew on some of this, instead of casting it off as "another religious freak."

 

[g8wayrebel]

RIP
I am not going to get in to the dynamics of idealism or secular societies and their affects on religion or world leaders , but I will point out that you failed to consider one thing in your beginning posts. Technology. Not only does technology bring people together,and there are many many more now than then ,it does it much faster than prior to the time frame you are using for your point. It allows man to kill in much greater numbers both through proximity and ability. There weren't even that many people involved in the crusades, let alone that they didn't have technologies above swords and boiling oil.Well , maybe they had a catapult or two ,but you can't mow down a platoon with a catapult.

 

[Netopia]

Here is a wish to all that they have a wonderful Holiday Season with their family. Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it.

Enjoy this Christmas and this past Thanksgiving my AnandTech friends... they are both based on Religious beliefs and if secularism has it's way, they should, by the most strict and legalistic misinterpretation of the Constitution, be removed from the list of governmentally observed holidays because of thier religious history.

Everyone enjoy your holiday brought to you by religion.... it may not be time off in the future.

Joe

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: Taejin
Don't bother, judasmachine.

Riprorin has yet to address the atrocity our forefather's committed. And many settlers committed in the name of God and conversion.

Yeah you're probably right. Again, he has tunnel vision. I will applaud him for his conviction, but his misunderstanding of it is just sad.

On the grander scale, I just feel that everyone has and deserves their own culture. If this makes me some whacko then so be it. I think Nature has succeeded by diversity. This homogenization of culture cannot be good. We will never evolve if we don't face adversity. The more sameness, the less adversity. The less adversity, the less we'll evolve.

You're right, but I do think there are certain limitations. Just as an example, we should never grant validity to cultures that feel they have the right to murder or oppress others without provocation or reason. Just as an example, the middle-eastern (potentially Islamic, though that seems hotly debated right now) view that Palestinians and Isrealites have some devine justification to blow each other up at every turn should NOT be considered just another part of diversity to be tolerated.

Jason

I do agree with you, but if left alone, it would never be more than a local dispute. If we stopped giving Israel unlimited funds and military toys, they wouldn't be able to slaughter the Palestinians as effectively. And it would die down to two local groups slapping the crap out of each other. I'd love to convince them that niether of their gods give a crap, but that's very unlikely. I say get out and let them duke it out between each other as local bordering tribes would do anyway.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: chevas

I'm not denying that there are good things that come out of other ideologies | faiths, but looking at the whole, I think Christianity is the most honest about people: we're screwed up.

That is most definitely your opinion (and I'm glad you said "I think") because I couldn't disagree more. It is christian thinking that gets a lot of people screwed up because if the bible is taken literally it is quite restrictive in a lot of ways and makes people feel guilty. The effects of puritan ideals in this country are still messing with people's heads today. If you want to say religion is the root of our society then you have to say it also caused the problems within it. A society where people are thought to think on their own will be best (of course my opinion).

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Riprorin
DMA, if I understand correctly you do "good" because you benefit from it and you don't do "evil" because of the threat of punishment.

And what about people who derive satisfaction from hurting others and live in a lawless society where there's no retribution for evil?

They're just the mirror image of you.

The reason that you're "good" and they're "bad" is that we have an external set of standards handed down by our Creator.

I might also point out that there is clearly something *wrong* with a person who derives satisfaction from harming others. Witness people who wait at the scene of executions and then cheer and applaud when the deed is done. I'm no enemy of capital punishment, but it's NOTHING to cheer about nor to be happy about. It's *TRAGIC* when a life has to be ended because of an individual's extreme crimes.

Jason

I'm glad that you look at things from a Judeo-Christian perspective.

Are you saying it's OK to kill from Buddhist perspective?
At least after millenia of persecuting Jews it's now Judeo-Christian.
Maybe by year 4000, you'll get that it's common sense.

You say that you don't advocate a lawless society. Neither do I. Thats why I'm glas that our laws have their basis in the Ten Commandments.

Our laws aren't primarily based on the Ten Commandments, they are primarily based upon the Common Law, which traces it's roots to around 500AD, WELL BEFORE the Normans invaded Brittania and brought the Ten Commandments with them.

Ignorant fop.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: chevas
Athiests are people too and athiesm has made mistakes.

How has Atheism made any mistakes? I might point out: Atheism ISN'T a system of belief nor a philsophy. BY DEFINITION Atheism is simply a matter of NOT believing in a deity. This is one of the reasons I hate to ask a supposed Atheist what they believe in. They invariably say "I'm an atheist", which is nice, but it doesn't answer the question. I didn't ask "what DON'T you believe in?".

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Netopia
Here is a wish to all that they have a wonderful Holiday Season with their family. Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it.

Enjoy this Christmas and this past Thanksgiving my AnandTech friends... they are both based on Religious beliefs and if secularism has it's way, they should, by the most strict and legalistic misinterpretation of the Constitution, be removed from the list of governmentally observed holidays because of thier religious history.

Everyone enjoy your holiday brought to you by religion.... it may not be time off in the future.

Joe

Well if you want to get right to the facts of the matter, Christmas is a holiday the Christians STOLE from a variety of other sources including the Celts (winter Solstice), the Vikings (Yule) and, of course, Michaelmas.

Enjoy your pagan holiday!

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: Taejin
Don't bother, judasmachine.

Riprorin has yet to address the atrocity our forefather's committed. And many settlers committed in the name of God and conversion.

Yeah you're probably right. Again, he has tunnel vision. I will applaud him for his conviction, but his misunderstanding of it is just sad.

On the grander scale, I just feel that everyone has and deserves their own culture. If this makes me some whacko then so be it. I think Nature has succeeded by diversity. This homogenization of culture cannot be good. We will never evolve if we don't face adversity. The more sameness, the less adversity. The less adversity, the less we'll evolve.

You're right, but I do think there are certain limitations. Just as an example, we should never grant validity to cultures that feel they have the right to murder or oppress others without provocation or reason. Just as an example, the middle-eastern (potentially Islamic, though that seems hotly debated right now) view that Palestinians and Isrealites have some devine justification to blow each other up at every turn should NOT be considered just another part of diversity to be tolerated.

Jason

I do agree with you, but if left alone, it would never be more than a local dispute. If we stopped giving Israel unlimited funds and military toys, they wouldn't be able to slaughter the Palestinians as effectively. And it would die down to two local groups slapping the crap out of each other. I'd love to convince them that niether of their gods give a crap, but that's very unlikely. I say get out and let them duke it out between each other as local bordering tribes would do anyway.

Maybe we should give both sides Neutron bombs, then when everyone is dead and the radiation's blown over in a few months, give teh territory and assets to someone who can act like an adult instead of a spoiled child

Jason

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Ignorant fop.

Jason[/quote]

Thanks for sharing!

Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year!

-Charlie

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

You say that you don't advocate a lawless society. Neither do I. Thats why I'm glas that our laws have their basis in the Ten Commandments.

Do you realize how many of the 10 are actually laws

*edit*

according to the American courts?

 

[oslama]

This country would run and be better under non judeo-christian-islamic politicians.

The Dalai Lama for President.

This country need a dose of the 4 noble truths.

Christianity and Islam are the two of the worst religions that God/Man has created.

 

[NarcoticHobo]

Yes, lets forget the crusades, the 100 years war, the 30 years war, the inquisition, etc.

Not to mention like someone said, NAZIsm had a religious basis, Hitler was obsessed with it (Indiana Jones movies aren't too far off he did actually send people after the holy grail). Then all of the terrorism in the middle east, the terrorism between Isrealites and Palestinians, the terrorism between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland/Scotland.

On top of all that lets not forget the statistical relevancy. In context of the time periods the wars I listed above were more deadly than the wars you listed (yes a lot more people died even in ratio to the amount of people fighting, butyou must take weapon power and general killing efficiency into the mix).

Oh and I almost forgot the persecution of the Christians by the Romans, then the total flipping to the Romans being christian and persecuting Muslims, and Constantinople, oh and Spain when they forced the Moors out, jeeze I better stop now there is just so much...

 

[NarcoticHobo]

Oh and whoever mentioned the ten commandments being a basis of our laws, do you realize that all of the moral ideals (not the ones like "don't worship idols", rather "don't kill people") existed well prior to the existence of the ten commandments in the form of Hammurabi's code, I would hardly call it basing the laws on the 10 commandments when none of the actual unique commandments are part of our law.

Edit: Oh and just for shites and jiggles, here are the real ten commandments, the ones written on the stone tablets:

1. I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. Obey what I command you today.
2. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
3. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.
4. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles [That is, symbols of the goddess Asherah].
5. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
6. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.
7. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
8. Do not make cast idols.
9. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
10. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
11. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck.
12. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
13. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
14. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year [That is, in the fall].
15. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel.
16. I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
17. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
18. Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
19. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.



As you can see they are quite different. Don't believe me? Grab a bible and turn to Exodus 34:27-28 which follows those statements.

 

[SocialDeviance]

What gets me in this whole thing is this:

The people who are pushing all of this stuff dont seem to have American Ideoligies. I am humored by the fact that these "NEOCONS" would like to get America back to its MORAL BASE. What is this Moral Base they are trying to restore? America has came a long ways in many libertarian movements and I would hate to think that to be a American now means to regress back to the days of segregation and socialy acceptable displays of hatred. I dont know what book they read but I fear they quote the same one I have read. funny how we get 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT messages. The main message I get is peace, love, tolerance, forgiveness, compassion.... love.....

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Netopia
Here is a wish to all that they have a wonderful Holiday Season with their family. Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it.

Enjoy this Christmas and this past Thanksgiving my AnandTech friends... they are both based on Religious beliefs and if secularism has it's way, they should, by the most strict and legalistic misinterpretation of the Constitution, be removed from the list of governmentally observed holidays because of thier religious history.

Everyone enjoy your holiday brought to you by religion.... it may not be time off in the future.

Joe

Well if you want to get right to the facts of the matter, Christmas is a holiday the Christians STOLE from a variety of other sources including the Celts (winter Solstice), the Vikings (Yule) and, of course, Michaelmas.

Enjoy your pagan holiday!

Jason

This is true... makes Christmas an EVEN MORE religious holiday, huh?

Joe

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: NarcoticHobo
Oh and whoever mentioned the ten commandments being a basis of our laws, do you realize that all of the moral ideals (not the ones like "don't worship idols", rather "don't kill people") existed well prior to the existence of the ten commandments in the form of Hammurabi's code, I would hardly call it basing the laws on the 10 commandments when none of the actual unique commandments are part of our law.

Edit: Oh and just for shites and jiggles, here are the real ten commandments, the ones written on the stone tablets:

1. I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. Obey what I command you today.
2. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
3. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you.
4. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles [That is, symbols of the goddess Asherah].
5. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
6. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.
7. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
8. Do not make cast idols.
9. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
10. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.
11. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck.
12. Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
13. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
14. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year [That is, in the fall].
15. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel.
16. I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
17. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
18. Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
19. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.



As you can see they are quite different. Don't believe me? Grab a bible and turn to Exodus 34:27-28 which follows those statements.

Astonishing.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

so it's come down to comparing raw body count, eh Rip ?

Godless ideologies have been by far the greatest source of death and destruction and human misery in the modern world.

Um, no...

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: sao123
What destroys men is the ABANDONMENT of FAITH in favor of REASON.

What destroys men is the urge to to DISCOVER and LEARN rather than to BELIEVE.

What destroys men is the idea of KNOWLEGDE & WEALTH held in higher regard than the idea of SELF DENIAL for the purpose of EXAULTING GOD.

What destroys men is the idea of EARTHLY FREEDOM held in higher regard than the idea of ETERNAL REWARD.

In Secularism your FAITH is placed in yourself. You hold that you are in control of your own destiny and no OMNIPOTENT BEING or HIGHER POWER exists, because you can not find, measure, touch, or prove his existance through any means within the comprehension of the MORTAL MIND.

You can place your faith in whatever you want, I'll choose GOD.



In your quest for knowledge never forget the evil tree in the garden of eden was the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life. Since that point, man has forever persued the quest of knowledge and wealth, instead of eternal life with God.

WHAT A CROCK!!! :frown: I'll take reasoned conclusions drawn from obverved evidence over some ooga booga mythology any day.

Stupid people should not be allowed to post in the highly technical forum.

By that reasoning, closed minded dogmatists should not be allowed to post in a P&amp;N. < hint > < hint > :beer:

Observed evidence cannot resolve our every problem. We still cannot prove how life first started in the universe or how universe got started. Instead we created the "theories" of Big Bang and evolution.The theories of evolution and Big bang are still just that, theories. We cannot discredit someone's beliefs and faith just on theories and obeservation. We need more evidence and clear hard facts. And I think the existence of God is a fact.
Jason[/quote]

This is true... makes Christmas an EVEN MORE religious holiday, huh?

Joe[/quote]
Christmas has always been a religious holdiay. And Christians didn't borrow it from the Pagans since in Russia it is celebrated on January 7th.(different calendar.etc)
[/quote]

Godless ideologies have been by far the greatest source of death and destruction and human misery in the modern world.[/quote]
Um, no...

[/quote]
Actually yes. Even though the Inquision was done by Catholics which I am not part of, it was done by people that shouldn't be in any church like the pope. These people were scapegoaters and aren't true and real Christians by my standards

 

[Netopia]

Christmas has always been a religious holdiay. And Christians didn't borrow it from the Pagans since in Russia it is celebrated on January 7th.(different calendar.etc)

I'm a fairly devout Christian, so it's not like I go off half cocked on things Christian. Christmas was pretty much a designed holiday and it's timing was such that it would keep converted pagans content since they had lost a pagan holiday, Saturnalia, which reached it's zenith on December 24 (Christmas Eve).

Read some of the history of England. Christmas celebration was illegalized at one point because it was normally celebrated with drunken licentiousness, riots and stealing... not exactly our current celebratory experience, is it?

Regardless of the long term history of Christmas, the fact is that it has been seen as an AMERICAN holiday in our history and culture. It is religious, but so have been the people of this nation. Our Government is a people for/by/of those same religious people. Though I do not believe in some sort of theocracy, to ignore the historical religiosity and culture of our nation, EXSPECIALLY in the school system and the public square is idiocy.

Joe