The threat of godless ideologies

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia

If that were to happen it would suck for those who are not of European Protestant ancestry.

This is somewhat true. But which is the greater evil, to take away the culture of the majority so that a minority doesn't have to experience it, or to leave things as they have been and as they progressed from the decendants of the people who created the nation and allow others to slowly add their diversity to the melting pot?

I'll tell you what I think is happening... the far left is being very vocal and is using the courts to get their way. The far right is their enemy (perceived) but what they don't realize is that they are alienating huge numbers of those in the moderate middle who neither want a Theocratic nor an Atheistic government, but a government which reflects the actual population of the nation. Most people don't have a problem with nativity scenes, for instance.... and even many who aren't religious like them just because it is the culture of their childhood and their fond memories.

Joe

No doubt the extremists are going to far . Of course if you were to look back in our history our culture wasn't something to really be proud of. It's better now for everybody than it has ever been.

 

[coolVariable]

Sorry, but what a nut.

Religion has been the No. 1 killer and war reason throughout history.
In the 20th century even the Holocost would NOT have happened without religion.
(Sorry to disappoint you but Jews are NOT a RACE ... so Hitler's hate [even though he did not beleve in god] was a religious hate.)


What I find rather ironic is that christians started of as anarchist terrorists.
The poor Romans had their hads full with the crazy nuts who were willing to go to their death for their religion (and tried to take as many people with them as possible).

And the Jews? .... I would suggest reading up on terrorism in the Middle East during the 40's and 50's.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Sorry, but what a nut.

Religion has been the No. 1 killer and war reason throughout history.
In the 20th century even the Holocost would NOT have happened without religion.

That assumption is nearly as stupid as saying that atheism is the biggest killer in history. War is started by leaders of nations and those leaders in the past chose to use religion as a rallying point. They could just as easily have used something else like say...starting a war because a country has a different economic system than yours (communism, etc.). It's really just about the lust to dominate a larger scope of the planet and also to keep your own citizens' hate directed at an outside source instead of directed at the leaders of their own country.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Sorry, but what a nut.

Religion has been the No. 1 killer and war reason throughout history.
In the 20th century even the Holocost would NOT have happened without religion.

That assumption is nearly as stupid as saying that atheism is the biggest killer in history. War is started by leaders of nations and those leaders in the past chose to use religion as a rallying point. They could just as easily have used something else like say...starting a war because a country has a different economic system than yours (communism, etc.). It's really just about the lust to dominate a larger scope of the planet and also to keep your own citizens' hate directed at an outside source instead of directed at the leaders of their own country.

Expect athesim isnt a killer! True, they use religion as a rallying point but there a plenty of people who do see it has a 110% religious issuse.

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Sorry, but what a nut.

Religion has been the No. 1 killer and war reason throughout history.
In the 20th century even the Holocost would NOT have happened without religion.

That assumption is nearly as stupid as saying that atheism is the biggest killer in history. War is started by leaders of nations and those leaders in the past chose to use religion as a rallying point. They could just as easily have used something else like say...starting a war because a country has a different economic system than yours (communism, etc.). It's really just about the lust to dominate a larger scope of the planet and also to keep your own citizens' hate directed at an outside source instead of directed at the leaders of their own country.

Expect athesim isnt a killer! True, they use religion as a rallying point but there a plenty of people who do see it has a 110% religious issuse.

Ok, take regimes like those that put forth the crusaders and call them religious.
Then take regimes like those that put forth communism and call them atheist. (Russia, China, N. Korea)
You tell me which has caused more death... regimes built around theism or atheism?
I think you'll find that those regimes built around atheism have caused more death and suffering than possibly all religious regimes put together throughout history. Stalin was responsible for 20,000,000 deaths and that's just HIS OWN PEOPLE!

Joe

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Originally posted by: Tabb

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Sorry, but what a nut.

Religion has been the No. 1 killer and war reason throughout history.
In the 20th century even the Holocost would NOT have happened without religion.

That assumption is nearly as stupid as saying that atheism is the biggest killer in history. War is started by leaders of nations and those leaders in the past chose to use religion as a rallying point. They could just as easily have used something else like say...starting a war because a country has a different economic system than yours (communism, etc.). It's really just about the lust to dominate a larger scope of the planet and also to keep your own citizens' hate directed at an outside source instead of directed at the leaders of their own country.

Expect athesim isnt a killer! True, they use religion as a rallying point but there a plenty of people who do see it has a 110% religious issuse.

Ok, take regimes like those that put forth the crusaders and call them religious.
Then take regimes like those that put forth communism and call them atheist. (Russia, China, N. Korea)
You tell me which has caused more death... regimes built around theism or atheism?
I think you'll find that those regimes built around atheism have caused more death and suffering than possibly all religious regimes put together throughout history. Stalin was responsible for 20,000,000 deaths and that's just HIS OWN PEOPLE!

Joe

If Richard the Lion Hearted had the technoligies at his disposal that Stalin did there wouldn't be any Jews or Muslims in the world today.

 

[Netopia]

While that may be true Red, he didn't so he couldn't.

The truth is that the more technologicly minded the world has become, the less wars have been over religion and the more they have been about territory and non-religious idiologies. So are still culturally related (Tutsi/Hutu's) but most aren't even that.

Joe

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Netopia
While that may be true Red, he didn't so he couldn't.

The truth is that the more technologicly minded the world has become, the less wars have been over religion and the more they have been about territory and non-religious idiologies. So are still culturally related (Tutsi/Hutu's) but most aren't even that.

Joe

Maybe that's because the more technologically advanced we become the less we are likely to be led to slaughter by antiquated mythical beliefs.

 

[coolVariable]

No. It only proves that
1. in religious wars people didn't care how many opponents were killed (while atheists did care)
2. we do not know how many were killed by a) the crusades b) the inquisition c) previous religious wars (e.g. 70 A.D.) d) religious intolerance and stupidity (e.g. black death alone killed 30 million)
3. "religionists" (what a stupid made-up word) are hypocrits: they justify their actions because they are/were done in the name of god (e.g. the nut who started this threat)

 

[InfectedMushroom]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
No. It only proves that
1. in religious wars people didn't care how many opponents were killed (while atheists did care)
2. we do not know how many were killed by a) the crusades b) the inquisition c) previous religious wars (e.g. 70 A.D.) d) religious intolerance and stupidity (e.g. black death alone killed 30 million)
3. "religionists" (what a stupid made-up word) are hypocrits: they justify their actions because they are/were done in the name of god (e.g. the nut who started this threat)

:thumbsup:

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Netopia
While that may be true Red, he didn't so he couldn't.

The truth is that the more technologicly minded the world has become, the less wars have been over religion and the more they have been about territory and non-religious idiologies. So are still culturally related (Tutsi/Hutu's) but most aren't even that.

Joe

Maybe that's because the more technologically advanced we become the less we are likely to be led to slaughter by antiquated mythical beliefs.

Then wouldn't it be much more practical to spend less time argueing against religious people than against atheistic regimes? If religion isn't the threat, why do people treat it as such?

Joe

 

[Netopia]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
No. It only proves that
1. in religious wars people didn't care how many opponents were killed (while atheists did care)
2. we do not know how many were killed by a) the crusades b) the inquisition c) previous religious wars (e.g. 70 A.D.) d) religious intolerance and stupidity (e.g. black death alone killed 30 million)
3. "religionists" (what a stupid made-up word) are hypocrits: they justify their actions because they are/were done in the name of god (e.g. the nut who started this threat)

And what do use to justify your actions in life? If you are an atheist, then by logic you MUST admit that life has no inherent meaning... only what individuals decide it means... in which case, one person's opinion is no better than another. If that is the case, then how can you possibly look down on religion or anything else without being a hypocrite?

Joe

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
Sorry, but what a nut.

In the 20th century even the Holocost would NOT have happened without religion.

And your proof is?

Here what a holocaust survior had to say on this issue:

WHY DID HITLER KILL THE JEWS?
by Alexander Kimel - Holocaust Survivor

There is no rational explanation for the madness of the Final Solution. At the time of the Holocaust, the Jews were stripped of their possessions, walled in ghettos, powerless and docile. They had no power, no land, nothing. The Jews were not a danger to Hitler's rule.

On the contrary, the destruction of the Jewry, affected negatively the German war effort, destroyed valuable industrial manpower, strained the transportation system, eliminated 25% of the medical professions and crippled the German research institutions, especially in the field of atomic physics. In addition, the racial discrimination laws excluded from military service about 300,000 Jews and half-Jews. The Wehrmacht lost about fifteen divisions, that could have been fielded.

World War II was decided not only on the battlefields, but also in the scientific laboratories. The invention of radar, breaking of the secret codes, building of superior aircrafts and tanks, decided the outcome of the war. Killing of scientists, doctors or other valuable manpower in time of war, was sheer lunacy. The Final Solution was against the interest of the German people and the Nazi party , and there is only one explanation for this lunacy .... madness.

Only a sick, compulsive mind, living in his own distorted world, could conceive such a Kafkasian horror. Hitler had such a mind. Despite outward appearance of strength, he was a sick, paranoid man, full of delusions. He believed that he is the greatest German who ever lived, the greatest master builder, the greatest military leader, the greatest philosopher, a liberator of humanity. His paranoia, delusions, detachment from reality, brutality, lack of moral scruples were signs of general paresis, a sickness that is caused by the dilapidating disease of syphilis.

It can be proven, that Hitler was infected with syphilis in 1908, and thirty years later, the dormant illness entered the tertiary stage, causing inflammation of the brain, called general paresis. The fact that Hitler was in his youth infected with syphilis, is mentioned in the memoirs of many Nazi dignitaries. Speer for example, mentions that Hitler was treated by Dr. Morell, a specialist in skin and venereal diseases. Earnst Hanfstaengel talks of Hitler congenital diseases, due to syphilis infection.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hitler ordered the killing, because he believed that the Jews were his powerful enemies, bent on destroying him. For Hitler the Jews were like windmills to Don Quixote. The best proof of Hitler's sickness is his behavior at the end of the war. When the Russians were only miles away, he was holed in the bunker and spent his time shuffling non-existing divisions or ordering increased production of tanks and aircrafts, in non-existing factories. He lost completely the touch with reality. His outward appearance was pitiful; his hands trembled, and he walked scooped, with difficulty. It looked like that he suffered from Parkinson's disease, but medical experts say that Parkinsonism affects only the motor coordination. It doesn't cause detachment from reality. There is no doubt that Hitler suffered from general paresis and a powerful nation, followed a syphilitic leader, on a path of war and destruction. The insanity of one man was superimposed on a whole nation.

The Holocaust is not the only indication of Hitler's derangement. Nazi Germany was full of the bizarre. For example: Germany had human breeding farms, where volunteer teenage girls were impregnated by blond, blue-eyed SS- men, to bear children for the Fuhrer . . . Hitler considered the creation of a new religion, where he would play the role of a Redeemer of mankind, and all future generation of Germans would pray to him. . . . In Auschwitz Mengele conducted experiments on twins, to find ways of improving the breeding methods for the German women . . . An uneducated corporal, was commanding an army of 5 million people, slowly grinding it down, while the propaganda minister, Goebbels, ran the country.

God created man in his image and Hitler tried to create a new man in his own brutal image. His vision of a new world is outlined in the "Table Talks" a book based on Hitler's own monologues. It is a chilling picture of a world order based on slavery, brutality and . . . nonsense. There is no doubt that the Hitler was a charismatic leader, who was able to infect with his paranoia a whole generation the German people. The Holocaust was the first stage of the new world order and a few of Hitler's admirers in this country would be surprised to learn, that they would have been the next victims.

It is tragic, that for the satisfaction of the whim of one man, a whole nation was crucified and the world, conditioned by two thousand years of anti-Semitism, looked on in silence, indifferent. Nothing was done to stop the killings.

WHY DID HITLER KILL THE JEWS?

No mention of religion here.

 

[Riprorin]

Anyone who threatened Hitler was at risk of being sent to a concentration camp or being killed on the spot including gypsies, the handicaped, intellectuals, Christians, clergy, members of labor unions, communists, etc.

 

[Netopia]

Plus there were plenty of non-religous Jews (probably even some Christian ones) who were slaughtered, so I don't think you can point to religion on this one. Remember that being a Jew isn't just about religion. My boss is a Jew and an atheist.

Joe

 

[0roo0roo]

interesting series Jonathan Millers Atheism Tapes Parts 1 & 2 of 6

parts 3-4

5-6

In 2004 he wrote and presented a series on atheism, 'Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief' (on-screen title; but more commonly referred to as 'Jonathan Miller's Brief History of Disbelief') for BBC Four TV, exploring the roots of his own lack of belief and investigating the history of atheism. Individual conversations, debates and discussions for the series that could not be included, due to time constraints - were individually aired in a six-part series entited Atheism Tapes.

hopefully the torrents work, otherwise you have to register with the site.

and jews and hitler? of course religion was involved. he LOVED the passion plays. u know.. kinda like that mel gibson movie? cept way more antisemstic. sad thing eh... rips started off attacking atheism,and ended up defending hitler

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
interesting series Jonathan Millers Atheism Tapes Parts 1 & 2 of 6

parts 3-4

5-6

In 2004 he wrote and presented a series on atheism, 'Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief' (on-screen title; but more commonly referred to as 'Jonathan Miller's Brief History of Disbelief') for BBC Four TV, exploring the roots of his own lack of belief and investigating the history of atheism. Individual conversations, debates and discussions for the series that could not be included, due to time constraints - were individually aired in a six-part series entited Atheism Tapes.

hopefully the torrents work, otherwise you have to register with the site.

and jews and hitler? of course religion was involved. he LOVED the passion plays. u know.. kinda like that mel gibson movie? cept way more antisemstic. sad thing eh... rips started off attacking atheism,and ended up defending hitler

Can you please point out where I defended Hitler?

Here's a toll of how many who were killed by godless communists:

The authors? research offers a rough exposition of the crimes of communism: USSR, 20 million deaths; China, 65 million deaths; Vietnam, 1 million deaths; North Korea, 2 million deaths; Cambodia, 2 million deaths; Eastern Europe, 1 million deaths; Latin America, 150,000 deaths; Africa, 1.7 million deaths; Afghanistan, 1.5 million deaths; the international communist movement and communist parties not in power, about 10,000 deaths.

Link

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Here's toll of how many who were killed by godless communists...

Great. Now, tell us how many were killed in the name of your deity. You can start with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials, and go from there. And yes, you can include Hitler, who used the same bullsh8 to justify his murderous rampage.

Religion is just another exercise in political power based on igorance, fear and myth. It's also a bad excuse for philosophy, the main difference being that, at least, in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer.

What a waste.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Here's toll of how many who were killed by godless communists...

Great. Now, tell us how many were killed in the name of your deity. You can start with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials, and go from there. And yes, you can include Hitler, who used the same bullsh8 to justify his murderous rampage.

Religion is just another exercise in political power based on igorance, fear and myth. It's also a bad excuse for philosophy, the main difference being that, at least, in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer.

What a waste.

How many were killed by deists: far, far, far less than the 100 or so million killed by atheistic communists in the last century alone.

By the way, I'm sure it pleases you to think that the crusades were "Holy Wars" fought by religious fanatics and power-hungry popes.

The reality is that the wars to the East were waged to turn back Muslim agression and prevent Christian lands from being overrun.

Do you have a problem with self-defense?

I've already demonstrated in this thread that Hitler's killing of the Jews had nothing to do with relgion so I don't know why you persist.

 

[slurmsmackenzie]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Here's toll of how many who were killed by godless communists...

Great. Now, tell us how many were killed in the name of your deity. You can start with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials, and go from there. And yes, you can include Hitler, who used the same bullsh8 to justify his murderous rampage.

Religion is just another exercise in political power based on igorance, fear and myth. It's also a bad excuse for philosophy, the main difference being that, at least, in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer.

What a waste.

How many were killed by deists: far, far, far less than the 100 or so million killed by atheistic communists in the last century alone.

By the way, I'm sure it pleases you to think that the crusades were "Holy Wars" fought by religious fanatics and power-hungry popes.

The reality is that the wars to the East were waged to turn back Muslim agression and prevent Christian lands from being overrun.

Do you have a problem with self-defense?

I've already demonstrated in this thread that Hitler's killing of the Jews had nothing to do with relgion so I don't know why you persist.

so is god keeping score? are self serving religious factions somehow less accountable for their death toll because the toll happens to be less (that's assuming that it were, of course). what sword did jesus yield against his oppressor.... or in defense of his father's name? the same desire for power that drives the athiest war machine is the same that fueled the one's of the dark ages. it just so happens that faith was a means to control the people.

 

[slurmsmackenzie]

3 mos dead before you dragged this one back, rip.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Here's toll of how many who were killed by godless communists...

Great. Now, tell us how many were killed in the name of your deity. You can start with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials, and go from there. And yes, you can include Hitler, who used the same bullsh8 to justify his murderous rampage.

Religion is just another exercise in political power based on igorance, fear and myth. It's also a bad excuse for philosophy, the main difference being that, at least, in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer.

What a waste.

How many were killed by deists: far, far, far less than the 100 or so million killed by atheistic communists in the last century alone.

By the way, I'm sure it pleases you to think that the crusades were "Holy Wars" fought by religious fanatics and power-hungry popes.

The reality is that the wars to the East were waged to turn back Muslim agression and prevent Christian lands from being overrun.

Do you have a problem with self-defense?

I've already demonstrated in this thread that Hitler's killing of the Jews had nothing to do with relgion so I don't know why you persist.

so is god keeping score? are self serving religious factions somehow less accountable for their death toll because the toll happens to be less (that's assuming that it were, of course). what sword did jesus yield against his oppressor.... or in defense of his father's name? the same desire for power that drives the athiest war machine is the same that fueled the one's of the dark ages. it just so happens that faith was a means to control the people.

It's quite obvious that godlessness is a far greater threat to humanity than deism.

Only the blind wouldn't see that.

 

[slurmsmackenzie]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Here's toll of how many who were killed by godless communists...

Great. Now, tell us how many were killed in the name of your deity. You can start with the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch trials, and go from there. And yes, you can include Hitler, who used the same bullsh8 to justify his murderous rampage.

Religion is just another exercise in political power based on igorance, fear and myth. It's also a bad excuse for philosophy, the main difference being that, at least, in philosophy, I don't know is an acceptable answer.

What a waste.

How many were killed by deists: far, far, far less than the 100 or so million killed by atheistic communists in the last century alone.

By the way, I'm sure it pleases you to think that the crusades were "Holy Wars" fought by religious fanatics and power-hungry popes.

The reality is that the wars to the East were waged to turn back Muslim agression and prevent Christian lands from being overrun.

Do you have a problem with self-defense?

I've already demonstrated in this thread that Hitler's killing of the Jews had nothing to do with relgion so I don't know why you persist.

so is god keeping score? are self serving religious factions somehow less accountable for their death toll because the toll happens to be less (that's assuming that it were, of course). what sword did jesus yield against his oppressor.... or in defense of his father's name? the same desire for power that drives the athiest war machine is the same that fueled the one's of the dark ages. it just so happens that faith was a means to control the people.

It's quite obvious that godlessness is a far greater threat to humanity than deism.

Only the blind wouldn't see that.

what you are failing to understand is that wrong is wrong. God doesn't give a hoot about who's more wrong. you're keeping score in a game with no winners. what's more obtuse than that?

 

[Riprorin]

100 or so million people were killed by communism alone in the last century.

"It's quite obvious that godlessness is a far greater threat to humanity than deism."

I don't know how else to say it to make you understand.

 

[slurmsmackenzie]

it's simple, rip.

Jesus does not advocate such killing, so...

if you are a so called christian murderous regime... even if the numbers are a percent of that of athiest warmongers, you're still of that system which God's system will bring to ruin. this is why you're taking score amongst a bunch of losers. 1st place and second place get the same prize, so who cares who killed more. seperate yourself as jesus did and watch mr. breeze unfold. the power both fight so vehemently to hold onto is fleeting.