The threat of godless ideologies

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cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
You can add about 20,000,000 Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Yugoslaves, Frenchmen, and other nationalities who were killed by the Nazis.

Nazism was not a godless ideology. Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles embossed with the words "Gott mit uns" and priests blessed SS units. Nazism also didn't have a godless leader.

Hitler was brought up to hate the Jews by the Christian church in Austria, which kept the part of its liturgy about perfidious Jews well after WW2 ended. Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938. During WW2, he told his staff that he was a Christian and would always be one.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: Netopia
Plus there were plenty of non-religous Jews (probably even some Christian ones) who were slaughtered, so I don't think you can point to religion on this one. Remember that being a Jew isn't just about religion. My boss is a Jew and an atheist.

Joe

Just because non-religious Jews were killed doesn't mean that the killing wasn't about religion. You need to look at the religion of the perpetrators, not the victims.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
100 or so million people were killed by communism alone in the last century.

"The authors? research offers a rough exposition of the crimes of communism: USSR, 20 million deaths; China, 65 million deaths; Vietnam, 1 million deaths; North Korea, 2 million deaths; Cambodia, 2 million deaths; Eastern Europe, 1 million deaths; Latin America, 150,000 deaths; Africa, 1.7 million deaths; Afghanistan, 1.5 million deaths; the international communist movement and communist parties not in power, about 10,000 deaths."

You have to use famines to get this figure. In China, where most of the deaths listed above occured, the vast majority were due to famines. However, China had many large famines before Communism as well as during, so it's not obvious that Communism was to blame for them. Over 24 million people died in China during the 1907 famine alone, and there was a major famine, killing millions in China in every decade before WW2 except the teens.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: conjur
*cough* *cough*

Damn, Rip. Stop bumping your old threads. The dust and mold are KILLING my allergies!

True. But Dave is 10x as guilty.

*rabble, rabble, rabble*

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: conjur
*cough* *cough*

Damn, Rip. Stop bumping your old threads. The dust and mold are KILLING my allergies!

True. But Dave is 10x as guilty.

*rabble, rabble, rabble*
At least Dave updates his threads with new information related to the topic (like oil reaching record highs, jobs numbers, etc.)

Rip is just being a narcissist.
 

Mean MrMustard

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2001
3,144
10
81
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: Riprorin
100 or so million people were killed by communism alone in the last century.

"The authors? research offers a rough exposition of the crimes of communism: USSR, 20 million deaths; China, 65 million deaths; Vietnam, 1 million deaths; North Korea, 2 million deaths; Cambodia, 2 million deaths; Eastern Europe, 1 million deaths; Latin America, 150,000 deaths; Africa, 1.7 million deaths; Afghanistan, 1.5 million deaths; the international communist movement and communist parties not in power, about 10,000 deaths."

You have to use famines to get this figure. In China, where most of the deaths listed above occured, the vast majority were due to famines. However, China had many large famines before Communism as well as during, so it's not obvious that Communism was to blame for them. Over 24 million people died in China during the 1907 famine alone, and there was a major famine, killing millions in China in every decade before WW2 except the teens.

But but but...

...the famines happened because they were evil.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: ELP
Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: Riprorin
100 or so million people were killed by communism alone in the last century.

"The authors? research offers a rough exposition of the crimes of communism: USSR, 20 million deaths; China, 65 million deaths; Vietnam, 1 million deaths; North Korea, 2 million deaths; Cambodia, 2 million deaths; Eastern Europe, 1 million deaths; Latin America, 150,000 deaths; Africa, 1.7 million deaths; Afghanistan, 1.5 million deaths; the international communist movement and communist parties not in power, about 10,000 deaths."

You have to use famines to get this figure. In China, where most of the deaths listed above occured, the vast majority were due to famines. However, China had many large famines before Communism as well as during, so it's not obvious that Communism was to blame for them. Over 24 million people died in China during the 1907 famine alone, and there was a major famine, killing millions in China in every decade before WW2 except the teens.

But but but...

...the famines happened because they were evil.
Maybe it was God himself who was responsible for those deaths to punish the Chinese for being Godless. If that's the case then you'd have to mark that up to Religion

Communism, Facism and Theocracy are all terrible forms of Government and usually are responsible for countless innocents dying.

 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
667
0
0
This is actually a current topic at the hill.

It always gets somebodies panties in a bunch. LOL.
Link

 
Published on Monday, March 7, 2005 by the Columbus Free Press / Ohio
Senator Byrd is Correct to Equate Bush With Hitler
by Harvey Wasserman

The U.S. Senate's senior Constitutional scholar has correctly equated Bush with Hitler, and the usual attack dogs are howling. But they are wrong, and Americans must now face the harsh realities of an increasingly fascist and totalitarian GOP.

Octogenarian Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia made the equation in the context of Bush's attack on Senate procedures which might slow or halt his on-going attempt to pack the courts with extreme right-wing fanatics. Byrd said Bush's moves to destroy time-honored Senate rules parallel Hitler's ramming fascist legislation through his gutted Reichstag. "Hitler never abandoned the cloak of legality," said Byrd. "He recognized the enormous psychological value of having the law on his side. Instead, he turned the law inside out and made illegality legal."

Anti-Defamation League Director Abraham Foxman has played the holocaust card for the Republicans, saying "It is hideous, outrageous and offensive for Senator Byrd to suggest that the Republican Party's tactics could in any way resemble those of Adolph Hitler and the Nazi Party.

GOP Chair Ken Mehlman has labeled Byrd's remarked "reprehensible and beyond the pale," remarks joined by Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum. Santorum is best known for equating sexuality between consenting gays with bestiality between humans and dogs.

But Byrd is one of the few in either house of Congress to truly understand the Constitution and to advocate for the Bill of Rights. He points out that like Hitler, Bush is pursuing a strategy designed to win absolute rule by one party and one leader. Hitler's central slogan "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" -- one people, one government, one dictator -- accurately describes the current GOP strategy of Karl Rove, Bush's Joseph Goebbels.

Now the Republicans have renominated extreme right-wing judges to high courts from which they were barred prior to the 2004 election. With enhanced majorities in Congress, the GOP is moving to gut rules put in place to protect the rights of minorities within the government. For the GOP, as for Hitler, such safeguards are annoying barriers to absolute power.

These judges are consistent in their eagerness to protect the power and privilege of private corporations at the public expense, while simultaneous promoting the invasion of individual rights by the government. Masquerading as "free market/small government" advocates, GOP conservatives -- like Hitler's Nazis -- promote an all-powerful central government run by and for the corporations that sponsor them while crushing individual rights and liberties.

While Bush advocates for "democracy" overseas, the GOP is crushing it at home. These judicial nominees mean to further solidify Republican control of the court system, which they have added to their grip on the Executive, both houses of Congress and the media. The GOP is also gutting safeguards within the FBI and CIA, turning them into a personal police force that could parallel Hitler's Gestapo.

Because the regime wraps itself in the rhetoric of our democratic roots, it's emotionally difficult for Americans to equate Bush with Hitler. He is not, after all, running death camps like the ones Hitler used to exterminate millions of Jews, Gypsies, gays, unionists, Jehovah Witnesses, the elderly and infirm, birth defected and handicapped. But the distinction may be lost on the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have died in the wholesale slaughter there, and whose land has been carpeted with radioactive depleted uranium which will kill for centuries.

Bush is now operating a classic concentration camp in Guantanamo. This infamous holding center operates entirely outside the rule of law, with prisoners held without charge, without evidence, without access to attorneys, family or the outside world.

At Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and elsewhere -- including the US "civilian" prison system -- the door has been opened onto the Nazi world of officially sanctioned torture and systematic human degradation. The new Attorney General of the United States has explicitly endorsed their use. Despite some phony genuflections to the contrary, Bush has renounced the Geneva Accords and has clearly stamped this most notorious Nazi trademark on a party also in love with the death penalty.

Bush now holds some 2.2 million prisoners in the US gulag, the world's biggest prison population since the Nazis both by absolute number and by percentage of population. At least 800,000 Americans are held for victimless "drug" crimes, including marijuana. Thousands die each year from torture, rape, suicide and treatable disease. The system is designed to remove from the political process and, in many cases, exterminate people of color, alternative life style and political dissidence.

Is this worthy of the Nazi label?

Fascism has long been clearly and simply defined as corporate control of the state, with strong totalitarian, militaristic, anti-feminist and anti-gay characteristics.

Both Mussolini's Fascist's and Hitler's Nazis used acts of terror and alleged terror to grab absolute power. Ranting at Bolshevism as the GOP now does against Islam, the Nazis used the burning of the Reichstag much as the GOP has capitalized on the terror attacks of September 11.

George W. Bush does not spellbind huge Goebbels-massed rallies as Hitler did. But he does not tolerate groups that might ask embarrassing questions, and has packed the nation's bloviator corps with servile panderers. Rove uses the mass media to manipulate and deceive in ways suited to the trappings of American culture as surely as Goebbels shaped Hitler's speeches to the German volksgeist.

Bush has courted both people of color and Jews. But his far right fundamentalist backers see all non-believers as children of Satan who must ultimately perish in a "cleansing" Armageddon that will allow only the chosen few into Heaven. Amidst the psychotic twists of the Book of Revelations, these are people who love Israel but hate Jews and all the other "un-saved." At its core, there is little to distinguish today's far-right Christian fundamentalism from Hitler's Aryan master racism.

The Bush/Rove view of science parallels that of Stalin. The Soviets slaughtered researchers whose data failed to confirm their theories. Today's GOP demands scientists fit their findings to the Bush/Rove gospel. The Bush EPA, Fish & Wildlife Service and other agencies routinely assault those who challenge corporate destruction of the earth. Despite the long-standing consensus on global warming, Bush's faith-based corporate-sponsored climatology insists CO2 emissions are no problem, the scientific equivalent of claiming the Nazi Holocaust never happened.

Like Hitler, Bush believes he talks to and for God. He has said at least twice in public that he does not oppose dictatorship as long as he can be the dictator. His family has long, well-documented financial and political ties to the Nazi regime, as well as to Osama bin Laden and a long list of oil-rich Islamic fundamentalists.

Senator Byrd's invocation of the Nazis to describe the Bush regime may be considered impolitic. But it's folly to avoid the important parallels.

By all accounts American democracy is hanging by a thin thread which Bush/Rove is laboring mightily to cut.

Sen. Robert Byrd is a conservative, uniquely learned man. When he equates Bush with Hitler, he speaks with great sadness and scholarship -- and must be heeded.

As those "W" bumper stickers morph into swastikas in the killing fields of Guantanamo and Iraq, we must, at Sen. Byrd's urging, revive recent history's most vital vow: "Never Again."

Many of Harvey Wasserman's relatives perished in the Nazi holocaust. His HISTORY OF THE US is at www.harveywasserman.com.

© 1970-2004 The Columbus Free Press
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
0
0
Originally posted by: fjord
This is actually a current topic at the hill.

It always gets somebodies panties in a bunch. LOL.

Bush isn't quite that grand. He's more of a Miklos Horthy.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: conjur
*cough* *cough*

Damn, Rip. Stop bumping your old threads. The dust and mold are KILLING my allergies!

True. But Dave is 10x as guilty.

*rabble, rabble, rabble*
At least Dave updates his threads with new information related to the topic (like oil reaching record highs, jobs numbers, etc.)

Rip is just being a narcissist.

He *did* just get back.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Haha, I have to say - well done. I'm an atheist, but you've certainly got a point. Of course, I still wouldn't trade in my nonbelief for a fantasy tale because the overarching point is the vicious will capitalize on whatever ideology, religion or popular movement they need to in order to ascend to power.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
rips just playing with himself now. last i checked the total world population at 400bc was only 150million and it was even less before that. so killing many with so few people to begin with is difficult, let alone the limits of primitive technology. but percentage wise, primitive cultures in the past killed off plenty of each others population in war, and basically all primitive peoples were religious. and well... look, 150 million africans died in the slave trade alone, and much of it was justified with religion. and as said, communism really was just a form of religion, with its great unquestionable leader and unquesetionable holy book, propensity to kill blasphemers. it got its worst qualities directly from religion really. so really, you are wasting your time rip.

Proponents of godless ideologies and proponents of theistic ideologies have had equal opportunities across history to kill, haven't they?

I don't get your point.

The fact is the godless ideology of communism resulted in the deaths of about 100,000,000 in the last century alone.

As I said, godlessness has been and continues to be the greatest threat to humanity.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
rips just playing with himself now. last i checked the total world population at 400bc was only 150million and it was even less before that. so killing many with so few people to begin with is difficult, let alone the limits of primitive technology. but percentage wise, primitive cultures in the past killed off plenty of each others population in war, and basically all primitive peoples were religious. and well... look, 150 million africans died in the slave trade alone, and much of it was justified with religion. and as said, communism really was just a form of religion, with its great unquestionable leader and unquesetionable holy book, propensity to kill blasphemers. it got its worst qualities directly from religion really. so really, you are wasting your time rip.

Proponents of godless ideologies and proponents of theistic ideologies have had equal opportunities across history to kill, haven't they?

I don't get your point.

The fact is the godless ideology of communism resulted in the deaths of about 100,000,000 in the last century alone.

As I said, godlessness has been and continues to be the greatest threat to humanity.

For pete's sake man. It's not religion nor atheism that kills. What do you also notice in the countries that have slaughtered thousands (millions)? The government is extremely centralized and authoritarian. That has a hell of a lot more to do with it than religion or lack of one does. Authoritarian governments create scapegoats to rally people together so the people aren't rallied together against the government. Saying it's because of atheism is bloody stupid. Arguing which side has killed more is equally retarded because it's really just two sides of the same coin.

So what if an atheist government has killed more than a religious one or vice versa. What type of government do they have in common? Yes, that's right: one that's pretty much all powerful.

Your argument is like saying oranges are evil because countries who produce a signifcant amount of them have governments that kill lots of people. The argument just doesn't make any sense. It isn't the oranges' ultimate goal to kill people; nor is it your average atheist's or Christian's.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
no they don't, primitive societies default to "godly" religion. and if you go back to the first day of religion way back when, i'm sure the number killed by religion dwarfs anything you can come up with for communism. it would take time, as primitive societies had only 5 million people to work with for much of human history, but as you know, theres plenty of time. as said, christians killed off 150million+ through slavery alone and used plenty of biblical justification during it add in the number killed by enforced ignorance because of the church and its never ending stances against progress and science, holding back progress hundreds of years, and the numbers would be staggering. and not to mention that communism turned out to be so indentical to religion in nature that god or no god is basically irrelevant. proving communism as evil on proves religions evils.

and really rip, stop bumping your 3 month old threads.

pathetic troll.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
no they don't, primitive societies default to "godly" religion. and if you go back to the first day of religion way back when, i'm sure the number killed by religion dwarfs anything you can come up with for communism. it would take time, as primitive societies had only 5 million people to work with for much of human history, but as you know, theres plenty of time. as said, christians killed off 150million+ through slavery alone and used plenty of biblical justification during it add in the number killed by enforced ignorance because of the church and its never ending stances against progress and science, holding back progress hundreds of years, and the numbers would be staggering. and not to mention that communism turned out to be so indentical to religion in nature that god or no god is basically irrelevant. proving communism as evil on proves religions evils.

and really rip, stop bumping your 3 month old threads.

pathetic troll.

Please come back when you have add something to add other than name calling.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Hey Rip, is it just me or are the majority of the wars/conflicts in this world faith based. Maybe not Chirstian (i know debatable...but don't jump this) but other religions and these groups are just as credible in their "godly ideologies" as Christians.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
no they don't, primitive societies default to "godly" religion. and if you go back to the first day of religion way back when, i'm sure the number killed by religion dwarfs anything you can come up with for communism. it would take time, as primitive societies had only 5 million people to work with for much of human history, but as you know, theres plenty of time. as said, christians killed off 150million+ through slavery alone and used plenty of biblical justification during it add in the number killed by enforced ignorance because of the church and its never ending stances against progress and science, holding back progress hundreds of years, and the numbers would be staggering. and not to mention that communism turned out to be so indentical to religion in nature that god or no god is basically irrelevant. proving communism as evil on proves religions evils.

and really rip, stop bumping your 3 month old threads.

pathetic troll.

Please come back when you have add something to add other than name calling.


come back when you remember 9/11. nothing is more dangerous than a person who believes that they have god on their side, and thus can value your death more than their life.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Stunt, let's examine WWI and WWII as they resulted in a tremendous loss of life. In WWI there were 7,996,888 killed and in WWII there were 52,199,262 killed.

WWI started when the The arch-duke of Austria-Hungary was assinated by a Serbian nationalist.

WWII started when Germany invaded Poland.

I don't see that the origins of either of these wars were "faith-based".

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Stunt, let's examine WWI and WWII as they resulted in a tremendous loss of life. In WWI there were 7,996,888 killed and in WWII there were 52,199,262 killed.

WWI started when the The arch-duke of Austria-Hungary was assinated by a Serbian nationalist.

WWII started when Germany invaded Poland.

I don't see that the origins of either of these wars were "faith-based".

and what weird conclusion did you reach?
that wars are caused because of lack of god?

leaders use whatever motivation they have at their disposal to get support from their civilian population, this is a simple fact if you look through history without the blinders

 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
So you pinpoint 2 wars out of how many in the history of the world?
Religion (i feel unintentionally) creates lots of conflict around the world.
I will agree that the WW's were not faith based. But they are rare examples.
israel/palestine
bosnia
northern ireland
iraq/iran
pakistan/india
to name a few more recent ones. I'm not a big history buff, and im not going to go on a google frenzy and pretend i am.
But i do know that a lot of brutal conflicts around the world were and are faith based. Not that faith based conflicts are more or less destructive...but i would not condemn athiests or any belief system.

Even if you consider the idea that the left are less religious for the most part, and don't want war or conflict.
That immediately throws your suggestion out the window. How can anti-war protesters be more deadly or destructive?
I dunno...i don't think your reasoning is too logical.
I do however think that faith has produced some good things im our history and should not be looked down on.
But just because a person doesnt believe the same thing you do doesnt make them more brutal or destructive.

Do you think i am destructive?
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
I choose WWI and WWII because they resulted in about 60,000,000 deaths. Can you name two other wars that caused as much carnage? I suspect that the death count surpasses that of all other wars combined.

I'm not a historian but it seems that the cause of war is rarely simplistic.

For example, look at the civil wars in France known as the Hugenot Wars. The immediate cause was the French Protestants' desire for freedom of worship, bit of equal importance was a power struggle between the crown and the nobles.

As far as Israel/Palestine, it seems to me it's largely a conflict over land.

The Bosnian civil was largely based on the politics of occupation.

I haven't said anything about the "right" or the "left" or about what I believe versus what you believe or that you're a bad person.

My premise is this: ideologies constructed upon godlessness have caused more misery and human dispair than theism.

As an example, I've pointed to the 100,000,000 million people killed in the 20th century alone as a consequence of communism, an ideology constructed on atheism.



 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
I am kinda drunk right now...going to a club tonight...but i will tell you right now that Christ favours helping your fellow man and helping the poor which is what communism is.
If you think communism is constructed on atheism...please don't start with capitalism is constructed on christianity...because the two contradict each other...and you should know this.
Note. we are talking capitalism vs. communism...NOT democracy vs. dictatorship
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Rip apparently missed where this was explained earlier, I'll bring it up again.

Arguing that "godless ideologies" are a threat by showing an example of a godless ideology (in this case communism) that was a threat is an argument that is missing a few key steps. The biggest one is that you haven't shown that communism was a threat BECAUSE the ideology didn't revolve around God. And even if that was the case, you also fail to demonstrate that this is always, or even usually, the case.

The idea is that correlation does not imply causation. Or in this case, a characteristic of a group is not always a cause behind the behavior of the group. If you can PROVE that it is, more power to you. But simply finding a bad group, pointing out a characteristic you don't like, and claiming it made them bad is silly reasoning at best, and bigoted stereotyping at worst.
 
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