The threat of godless ideologies

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I choose WWI and WWII because they resulted in about 60,000,000 deaths. Can you name two other wars that caused as much carnage? I suspect that the death count surpasses that of all other wars combined.

I'm not a historian but it seems that the cause of war is rarely simplistic.

For example, look at the civil wars in France known as the Hugenot Wars. The immediate cause was the French Protestants' desire for freedom of worship, bit of equal importance was a power struggle between the crown and the nobles.

As far as Israel/Palestine, it seems to me it's largely a conflict over land.

The Bosnian civil was largely based on the politics of occupation.

I haven't said anything about the "right" or the "left" or about what I believe versus what you believe or that you're a bad person.

My premise is this: ideologies constructed upon godlessness have caused more misery and human dispair than theism.

As an example, I've pointed to the 100,000,000 million people killed in the 20th century alone as a consequence of communism, an ideology constructed on atheism.

Actually, your premise seems to be that ideologies constructed upon godlessness have caused more misery and human despair than theism BECAUSE they were godless. That is a little bit different.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I am kinda drunk right now...going to a club tonight...but i will tell you right now that Christ favours helping your fellow man and helping the poor which is what communism is.
If you think communism is constructed on atheism...please don't start with capitalism is constructed on christianity...because the two contradict each other...and you should know this.
Note. we are talking capitalism vs. communism...NOT democracy vs. dictatorship

If communism's goal was to help the poor and help your fellow man it failed pretty badly.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Rip apparently missed where this was explained earlier, I'll bring it up again.

Arguing that "godless ideologies" are a threat by showing an example of a godless ideology (in this case communism) that was a threat is an argument that is missing a few key steps. The biggest one is that you haven't shown that communism was a threat BECAUSE the ideology didn't revolve around God. And even if that was the case, you also fail to demonstrate that this is always, or even usually, the case.

The idea is that correlation does not imply causation. Or in this case, a characteristic of a group is not always a cause behind the behavior of the group. If you can PROVE that it is, more power to you. But simply finding a bad group, pointing out a characteristic you don't like, and claiming it made them bad is silly reasoning at best, and bigoted stereotyping at worst.

Please work to proliferate the term "specious reasoning". It is awkward sounding, and yet has such a nice pedantic ring to it. I like it.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I choose WWI and WWII because they resulted in about 60,000,000 deaths. Can you name two other wars that caused as much carnage? I suspect that the death count surpasses that of all other wars combined.

That's a result of the fact that half of all the humans who ever have lived, lived since 1900. If you take that fact into account by measuring wars by percentage of population killed, instead of absolute numbers, we find that the deaths in the 31-year period from 1914-1945 is exceeded by the 30 Years War.

As an example, I've pointed to the 100,000,000 million people killed in the 20th century alone as a consequence of communism, an ideology constructed on atheism.

Your figure ignores basic facts about those deaths, as I pointed out above. The majority of those deaths resulted from famine. You might ask if we can blame the famines on Communism, and yes, there is a connection, though we can't assign the sole responsibility to a single cause.

The connection between famine and communism has nothing to do with lack of religion, but rather the support of an anti-evolutionary biology ideology called Lysenkoism. Famines in both the USSR and PRC were partially the result of using agricultural practices based on Lysenkoist ideology instead of sound biology. The closest ideology to Lysenkoism today is Creationism, which also finds modern biology unpalatable to its prejudices.

 

[Tylanner]

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery

Your thesis that the 10's of millions who died as a result of Nazism are attributable to the excesses of a "godless ideology" doesn't hold water. Take the above excerpt from your own posting. From that quotation, it's apparent that Hitler had respect for "the Godhead", but felt that Christianity was a distortion of the concept.

Thus, any death's attributable to Hitler or the Nazis CANNOT be said to be due to "godless ideologies", since Hitler believed in "the Godhead", hardly a "godless" ideology.

There is also abundant evidence that Hitler and the Nazis identified with God:

"Godless movement" denounced by the Nazis - 1933

There are numerous examples in Mein Kampf where Hitler professes a belief in God. Here's one: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

From John Toland's biography on Hitler: ""Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god -- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty. Himmler was pleased to murder with mercy. He ordered technical experts to devise gas chambers which would eliminate masses of Jews efficiently and 'humanely,' then crowded the victims into boxcars and sent them east to stay in ghettos until the killing centers in Poland were completed."

Hitler may well have disliked Christianity, and he certainly hated the Jews, but that doesn't mean he was "godless". In fact, one could argue that his belief that he was doing God's work was the animating force behind Hitler, allowing him to inspire his followers and without which he would have been just another raving lunatic.

Sorry, but WWII's 10s of millions dead get credited to a wacko who believed he was doing God's work.

Guess you should convert to Atheism, eh Rip?

 

[Tylanner]

Karl Marx said that "Religion is the opiate of the masses," and he couldn't have been more correct. Religion is a drug that encourages you to not think for yourself, and, in my very humble opinion, is much worse and far more deadly than heroin, pot, cocaine, and alcohol all put together. None of these other drugs breeds contempt for other people, but all religions do in one way or another. Religion is the insidious evil of our planet, and the sooner people start to wake up to that the sooner we can get on to bigger, more important issues like peace and goodwill toward others.

My one and only contri to this thread.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Rip apparently missed where this was explained earlier, I'll bring it up again.

Arguing that "godless ideologies" are a threat by showing an example of a godless ideology (in this case communism) that was a threat is an argument that is missing a few key steps. The biggest one is that you haven't shown that communism was a threat BECAUSE the ideology didn't revolve around God. And even if that was the case, you also fail to demonstrate that this is always, or even usually, the case.

The idea is that correlation does not imply causation. Or in this case, a characteristic of a group is not always a cause behind the behavior of the group. If you can PROVE that it is, more power to you. But simply finding a bad group, pointing out a characteristic you don't like, and claiming it made them bad is silly reasoning at best, and bigoted stereotyping at worst.

Please work to proliferate the term "specious reasoning". It is awkward sounding, and yet has such a nice pedantic ring to it. I like it.

No problem...I will use it whenever possible in the future

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Stunt
I am kinda drunk right now...going to a club tonight...but i will tell you right now that Christ favours helping your fellow man and helping the poor which is what communism is.
If you think communism is constructed on atheism...please don't start with capitalism is constructed on christianity...because the two contradict each other...and you should know this.
Note. we are talking capitalism vs. communism...NOT democracy vs. dictatorship

If communism's goal was to help the poor and help your fellow man it failed pretty badly.

Once again conservatives there has never been a communist nation. Only half-baked bloodthirsty maniacs using an ideology and twisting it into something completely the opposite.

This is like blaming Nazi Germany on Capitalists. Hitler believed in Darwinism, which is capitalism in a sense, and appreciated the advantages of Capitalism because it rooted out those who were unable to survive.

Mao and Stalin were pathetic refuse. They would sit around and use the word comrade in their tight-knit oligarchal circle as if it meant anything anymore. The true comrade was EVERY working man. Regardless of his race or religion. That was what was revolutionary about Marx. A colorblind man in the late 19th century.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Stunt
I am kinda drunk right now...going to a club tonight...but i will tell you right now that Christ favours helping your fellow man and helping the poor which is what communism is.
If you think communism is constructed on atheism...please don't start with capitalism is constructed on christianity...because the two contradict each other...and you should know this.
Note. we are talking capitalism vs. communism...NOT democracy vs. dictatorship

If communism's goal was to help the poor and help your fellow man it failed pretty badly.

Once again conservatives there has never been a communist nation. Only half-baked bloodthirsty maniacs using an ideology and twisting it into something completely the opposite.

This is like blaming Nazi Germany on Capitalists. Hitler believed in Darwinism, which is capitalism in a sense, and appreciated the advantages of Capitalism because it rooted out those who were unable to survive.

Mao and Stalin were pathetic refuse. They would sit around and use the word comrade in their tight-knit oligarchal circle as if it meant anything anymore. The true comrade was EVERY working man. Regardless of his race or religion. That was what was revolutionary about Marx. A colorblind man in the late 19th century.

Personally I have a pretty big problem with communism (yes, true communism that Marx would recognize), but you have a fair point. Communism was an ideology that the maniacs were able to get people to buy into, and then use for their own goals. In fact, it was used much the same way terrorists use Islam. "Here's a set of good ideas, now let me tell you why they say you should do what I say."

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Communism was an ideology that the maniacs were able to get people to buy into, and then use for their own goals. In fact, it was used much the same way terrorists use Islam. "Here's a set of good ideas, now let me tell you why they say you should do what I say."

That sounds like the Bush admin's plan, as well.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Communism was an ideology that the maniacs were able to get people to buy into, and then use for their own goals. In fact, it was used much the same way terrorists use Islam. "Here's a set of good ideas, now let me tell you why they say you should do what I say."

That sounds like the Bush admin's plan, as well.

"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer, ein Volk"

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Stunt
I am kinda drunk right now...going to a club tonight...but i will tell you right now that Christ favours helping your fellow man and helping the poor which is what communism is.
If you think communism is constructed on atheism...please don't start with capitalism is constructed on christianity...because the two contradict each other...and you should know this.
Note. we are talking capitalism vs. communism...NOT democracy vs. dictatorship

If communism's goal was to help the poor and help your fellow man it failed pretty badly.

Once again conservatives there has never been a communist nation. Only half-baked bloodthirsty maniacs using an ideology and twisting it into something completely the opposite.

the hell there wasn`t communism.so the recent history of Eastern Europe is just a mistake and communism is essentially good,isn`t it?that reminds me of a university teacher from america coming here at the beginning of the 90`s and feeeling sorry for us because of the "collapse of the soviet hope".

 

[DaedalCipher]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

so it's come down to comparing raw body count, eh Rip ?

Godless ideologies have been by far the greatest source of death and destruction and human misery in the modern world.

What about the ancient world, where religion had almost complete dominance over the entire population? I guess we're only counting the last couple hundred years, and not the previous, oh, 7000 OR SO?!? Makes sense though- you religious nuts always like the narrow view of things. Can't have anyone seeing the big picture now, can we? Who knows? Church attendance and donations might start to drop dramatically if people stop believing your propaganda.
Oh wait. It already has.



"Is the church in the West doomed?
The latest statistics from the Church of England show that churchgoers are attending church far less regularly.
More worrying still, the disappearance of the younger generation continues, with the number of children and young people in the average Sunday attendance dropping from 180,000 in 2000 to 173,000 in 2001. The number of adults dropped by 10,000. This pattern is mirrored in all the major denominations in Europe.

Is the decline of the mainstream church in the West irreversible?"

From http://www.cwmission.org.uk/default.cfm

Go there and check it out. Ouch.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Communism was an ideology that the maniacs were able to get people to buy into, and then use for their own goals. In fact, it was used much the same way terrorists use Islam. "Here's a set of good ideas, now let me tell you why they say you should do what I say."

That sounds like the Bush admin's plan, as well.

While I can't speak to Bush's thoughts on the subject, I am disturbed by the number of comments from some people along the lines of, "If you were a patriotic American, you would do X". It's the same kind of thing, come up with a vague idea people want to get behind, and then twist it to mean whatever you want.

Edit: Not that this is, by any means, uncommon. It shows up with pretty good regularity in history, because if we've learned anything from history, it's that people are all too willing to stop thinking when presented with a broad idea to get behind.

 

[judasmachine]

The fact is we are violent animals, and whether the violence is in a god's name, no god's name, or whatever it's going to happen.

 

[wchou]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

stop living in the past, what's done is done
if you care so much how about try to build a time machine and change all that
but what will be your reward for saving these people who could careless about you

 

[Slogun]

Riprorin = ass

go preach on a street corner...

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: sao123
Who cares if you think the Christian GOD, the GOD of the bible is fair or moral or discriminating or evil. He doesnt answer to you.

Isn't that something special? Here's a clue. I don't answer to your fantasy deity anymore than it answers to me.

You're entitled to believe what you want, but AFIC, religion is a just another political structure based on ignorance and fear of some imaginary wrathful god and fear of others.

What a pile of crap! :disgust:

:thumbsup:

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: polm

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Between 1900 to 1987 communists alone murdered about 110,000,000 people.

How many people do you think were killed by religionists over this time period?

so it's come down to comparing raw body count, eh Rip ?

Godless ideologies have been by far the greatest source of death and destruction and human misery in the modern world.

I'd say that it is monkeyless ideologies that are "by far the greatest source of death and destruction and human misery in the modern world."

If people would just get more monkeys in thier belief systems, the world wold be a much better place.

 

[NarcoticHobo]

the hell there wasn`t communism.so the recent history of Eastern Europe is just a mistake and communism is essentially good,isn`t it?that reminds me of a university teacher from america coming here at the beginning of the 90`s and feeeling sorry for us because of the "collapse of the soviet hope".

This is why everyone should use the term communism to describe what happened, and Marxism to describe what he wrote about.

See while Marx was writing about communism he was alive long enough to see the soviet "communism" which caused him to utter his famous "I am not a Marxist." because he saw how miserably his philosophies had been misinterpreted and abused.

Hate communism if you want, but remember Marx would say it hasn't even had a chance to happen. (communism evolves out of Capitalism and no capitalist country has tried communism)

 

[NarcoticHobo]

Oh and also, like I brought up earlier if you are going to judge this things you have to take into account all previous wars. And when you do that you must compensate for the amount of killing power they had back then plus the fact that the world was far far less populous. When you take these things into account and remember such wars as the three crusades, the 30 years war, and pretty much every war in europe before the 1800's you find that GodFULL Ideologies are responsible for the majority of deaths.

Oh and on a side note did you know that this is probably the only time in human history where the living have outnumbered all who have ever died. One time opportunity right there!

 

[Sunbird]

Well, I have just finished reading the 1400 page book called The Rise and Fall off the Third Reich, and in there it tells how Hitler used the church for his own means, by forcing the protestant churches to become part of the Reich Church, which had a Reich Bishop.

The priests and such in the church that opposed this met with pain and suffering in the form of the SA (party thugs), and later the SS.

Any fundamentalism is bad, be it secular, christain, islamic, whatever else or monkeyism (as MonkeyK would prefer).

You can't force your ideas on others, cause if you do, your bad, no matter what group you belong to, the best you can strife for is to establish common rules/protocols so that there is a more harmonious existence.

But don't try to force your rules and protocols on others just because you think they are the best ones. It will just turn into a standards war like vhs/beta, or jews/muslims. In the end, the one that is easiest to use, and not forced down people throats will win anyway.