The Three Easy Steps to Avoid Poverty

[Subyman]

So ya, fuck the norms. Its just racism. Time to rob someone because it aint my fault I'm poor.

What the OP is saying is that it is a complicated issue and has components from both sides. You can't stand firmly on either side of the issue. Making all the right choices gives a person a better shot at making it out of poverty, but does not guarantee it. The statistics show that the advantage of making all the right choices helps a white person more than a black person.

It isn't "just" racism. It is partially on the person to work hard, but there is a racial advantage built into the system and there is no guarantee that your boot straps are connected to anything other than poverty.

 

[cubby1223]

This has been brought up time and again. Why is it that if Asians don't suffer economic discrimination mean that other minorities don't? I can't think of any logical argument for that.

You really have no interest in any discussion ever, do you?

I mean, other than with people who already agree with you?

You are smarter than what you wrote in your post. And you damn well know it, too. This is exactly why I was opposed to the "Discussion Club", because of the primary supporters like yourself who desire to purposefully be deceptive and enjoy it by masking it with intelligent-sounding words, because, why, you think you're above everyone else and entitled to be an ass?


You know your post is not the argument being made, you just want to antagonize for the sake of antagonizing.

 

[Paratus]

What the OP is saying is that it is a complicated issue and has components from both sides. You can't stand firmly on either side of the issue. Making all the right choices gives a person a better shot at making it out of poverty, but does not guarantee it. The statistics show that the advantage of making all the right choices helps a white person more than a black person.

It isn't "just" racism. It is partially on the person to work hard, but there is a racial advantage built into the system and there is no guarantee that your boot straps are connected to anything other than poverty.

Well said

 

[dank69]

You really have no interest in any discussion ever, do you?

I mean, other than with people who already agree with you?

You are smarter than what you wrote in your post. And you damn well know it, too. This is exactly why I was opposed to the "Discussion Club", because of the primary supporters like yourself who desire to purposefully be deceptive and enjoy it by masking it with intelligent-sounding words, because, why, you think you're above everyone else and entitled to be an ass?


You know your post is not the argument being made, you just want to antagonize for the sake of antagonizing.

The argument has been made, you just haven't followed along. OP posted stats showing discrimination against black people. Others attempted to counter the argument with "but Asians, therefore not racism."

 

[First]

You really have no interest in any discussion ever, do you?

I mean, other than with people who already agree with you?

You are smarter than what you wrote in your post. And you damn well know it, too. This is exactly why I was opposed to the "Discussion Club", because of the primary supporters like yourself who desire to purposefully be deceptive and enjoy it by masking it with intelligent-sounding words, because, why, you think you're above everyone else and entitled to be an ass?


You know your post is not the argument being made, you just want to antagonize for the sake of antagonizing.

Huh? His post isn't antagonizing in the least. People who talk about "other minorities" (Asians in particular) as if this is a 1-to-1 comparison with little difference are undeniably misinformed. That isn't controversial, try letting "But Asians do well" argument fly in any academic institution in the country and you'd be rightfully put in your place. It's a nonsensical argument; Asians may in fact do better, but what does that specifically say about 3 centuries of slavery/reconstruction/jim crow/debt peonage/etc.? Absolutely nothing, obviously.

 

[disappoint]

So is your conclusion that it must be racism? Any other factors that may contribute as to why people can't succeed?

I'm open, what do you have?

How about a culture that thinks it's not "cool" to be smart or successful?

 

[pcgeek11]

says the person who has no handicaps in life.

I have plenty of handicaps. Just ask my wife.

Life still isn't fair and there are uncountable variables in this than the three listed.

 

[pcgeek11]

Yes there are which is why they studied more than single individuals.

Also when life isn't fair to an entire race we would generally call that systematic discrimination.

Maybe the differences could be lessened so lifting yourself up by your bootstraps works similarly well for all Americans. :hmm:

Bull Shit. That is a lame excuse for crappy choices by a vast swath ( not all ) of certain races.

I'm not claiming racism doesn't play a role, just that it doesn't boil down to just that. It is a very complex issue involving many factors other than those three listed.

 

[Paratus]

How about a culture that thinks it's not "cool" to be smart or successful?

The people who meet these norms would tend to be the ones not making execuses or do think it's cool to be successful, so try again.


As for the whole "culture" thing lets talk about that. What would your culture be like if:

• Your great great grandparents had been slaves
• Your great grandparents had grown up in the reconstruction south
• Your grand parents had lived during Jim Crow poll taxes, and redlining
• Your parents been caught up in the War on Drugs

Personally I don't think I would have been hearing about how I could be whatever I wanted if I just applied myself if that had been my family history.

My personal feeling is that the structural racism endured by too many Americans in the past will take at least 2-3 generations to fix any "cultural" issues.

Bull Shit. That is a lame excuse for crappy choices by a vast swath ( not all ) of certain races.

I'm not claiming racism doesn't play a role, just that it doesn't boil down to just that. It is a very complex issue involving many factors other than those three listed.

Of course it's a complex issue and there are many problems at play. But you just agreed with me that racism does play a role. Maybe we could start by addressing that?

 

[Smoblikat]

So a study done by the bookings institute says that of US citizens who follow this three step sequence about 3/4 will find themselves in the middle class as defined by 300% of the poverty level. Only 2% will be below the poverty level.

The three step sequence is:

• Graduate from High School
• Don't have kids before your 21 and married (edit didn't have this quite right)
• Get a full time job

This list is basically a no brainer, but it plays nice to the, "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" and "you get what you deserve" crowds. (I'm going to leave the difficulty in getting a full-time job for later)

What's interesting is when you break out the outcomes by race, doing the right things does not pay off the same depending on your race:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox...k_families_who_do_everything_right_still.html

African Americans don't receive the same benefit as whites for doing the right things.

This also shows up in how well the respective populations do if they screw up one of the sequences.

Again African Americans have worse outcomes than whites.

Remember these are people who are doing the right things to better themselves.

Discrimination still exists in this country, it's better, but here's another indication it still exists. Equal effort should lead to roughly equal outcomes, statistically speaking. Here it doesn't always.

We are all running the same race but some Americans are being forced to run with a handicap. If you believe the American ideal of equality that's wrong.

Please contain your racism. I prefer European Americans, NOT whites. What is this, the 20th century? Also, are black people from Jamaica still called African Americans, even though they have no connection at all to that continent?

 

[fskimospy]

Please contain your racism. I prefer European Americans, NOT whites. What is this, the 20th century? Also, are black people from Jamaica still called African Americans, even though they have no connection at all to that continent?

Fyi, black Jamaicans are originally of African descent.

 

[Smoblikat]

Fyi, black Jamaicans are originally of African descent.

FYI modern humans ALL came from Africa, so putting any label on a specific group is completely pointless.

Except for whites, I still definitely prefer European American, otherwise you would have OFFENDED me, you wouldnt want to OFFEND ME and my CHILDREN would you? You monsters.....

 

[fskimospy]

FYI modern humans ALL came from Africa, so putting any label on a specific group is completely pointless.

Except for whites, I still definitely prefer European American, otherwise you would have OFFENDED me, you wouldnt want to OFFEND ME and my CHILDREN would you? You monsters.....

It is pointless but people do it anyway, particularly for people of African descent, which is what this thread is about. Hopefully someday soon there will be less racism towards African Americans, but at the moment it's pretty rampant.

As for Jamaicans vs all humans, they are from Africa a few hundred years ago, not thousands of years ago, so they share a lot of visual characteristics. That's why they are often identified as African Americans.

 

[dank69]

How about a culture that thinks it's not "cool" to be smart or successful?

Like white American culture? Doesn't seem to hurt them that much.

 

[Atreus21]

What the OP is saying is that it is a complicated issue and has components from both sides. You can't stand firmly on either side of the issue. Making all the right choices gives a person a better shot at making it out of poverty, but does not guarantee it. The statistics show that the advantage of making all the right choices helps a white person more than a black person.

It isn't "just" racism. It is partially on the person to work hard, but there is a racial advantage built into the system and there is no guarantee that your boot straps are connected to anything other than poverty.

In other words, "...but seriously, it's racism."

 

[Paratus]

In other words, "...but seriously, it's racism."

Look at all the colors in the conservative rainbow!

 

[CitizenKain]

Look at all the colors in the conservative rainbow!

Actually that has way more black then a conservative rainbow ever would. Like, maybe some really faint lines around a lot of whiteness.

 

[HumblePie]

One thing that graph GLARINGLY misses is opportunities.

That is one HUGE factor. Why? If you grow up in a poor rural or inner city area then your chances of breaking out of poverty are significantly worse than those that don't despite being a high school grad, and good person. If you live an area where you can't find work and aren't able to move to an area where you can, then chances are you'll be poor as well for a very long time.

Where you start tends to be where you end up in life regardless of many other factors.

Beyond the OP's article, and the point I already made is that college or vocational education is another important factor. As much as I hate the ideal of colleges being a requirement for the middle class barrier and the costs associated with it, it is what it is in our society today. Being able to go to and complete college is a huge indicator to future success. Not everyone can do it, and those from an already poor background have a harder time completing this step.

Finally the last part that is tied very closely with college or vocational education is the type of education it is. Under water basket weaving (just roll with the joke here please) is not a college class that leads to very marketable skill.



So the reality is the expansion of the original trio of indicators to poverty to further include what I said before tying in racial demographics or any other demographic. Because the trio only in the OP's article tends to skew the demographic associations to making it seem our society is far more racist than it is.

 

[glenn1]

So the reality is the expansion of the original trio of indicators to poverty to further include what I said before tying in racial demographics or any other demographic. Because the trio only in the OP's article tends to skew the demographic associations to making it seem our society is far more racist than it is.

I don't think the original list of 3 was meant to be exhaustive, only a set of minimal thresholds that are in the control of (and achievable by) most people. Yours go more into the realm of root cause analysis why people might succeed or fail despite meeting the first 3 criteria.

 

[HumblePie]

I don't think the original list of 3 was meant to be exhaustive, only a set of minimal thresholds that are in the control of (and achievable by) most people. Yours go more into the realm of root cause analysis why people might succeed or fail despite meeting the first 3 criteria.

But the demographic tie in is an attempt at trying a root cause analysis. Which is stupid to attempt without factoring in other vectors at that point. Had the original trio just been a these are the basic three steps to not be in poverty when you grow up, but only doing these three steps doesn't guarantee not being in poverty would have been a valid assertion to make. End of discussion there. Trying to tie in demographics for to display a root cause for an agenda after showing those original 3 assertions in the OP's graphs is just plain fucking dumb.

 

[Cozarkian]

The people who meet these norms would tend to be the ones not making execuses or do think it's cool to be successful, so try again.


As for the whole "culture" thing lets talk about that. What would your culture be like if:

• Your great great grandparents had been slaves
• Your great grandparents had grown up in the reconstruction south
• Your grand parents had lived during Jim Crow poll taxes, and redlining
• Your parents been caught up in the War on Drugs

Personally I don't think I would have been hearing about how I could be whatever I wanted if I just applied myself if that had been my family history.

My personal feeling is that the structural racism endured by too many Americans in the past will take at least 2-3 generations to fix any "cultural" issues.



Of course it's a complex issue and there are many problems at play. But you just agreed with me that racism does play a role. Maybe we could start by addressing that?

Your assertion needs factual support. The three factors considered are a really low bar. It is quite possible to achieve them and still be a person that thinks getting C's and D's is cool, and that a full time job at a fast food is the best a person can do because white people are racist.

Also, do you believe that black immigrants who arrive more recently are able to match the success of whites and Asians, or do they automatically get pulled down by slavery/Jim Crow/drug war by virtue of their skin color?

 

[werepossum]

One thing that graph GLARINGLY misses is opportunities.

That is one HUGE factor. Why? If you grow up in a poor rural or inner city area then your chances of breaking out of poverty are significantly worse than those that don't despite being a high school grad, and good person. If you live an area where you can't find work and aren't able to move to an area where you can, then chances are you'll be poor as well for a very long time.

Where you start tends to be where you end up in life regardless of many other factors.

Beyond the OP's article, and the point I already made is that college or vocational education is another important factor. As much as I hate the ideal of colleges being a requirement for the middle class barrier and the costs associated with it, it is what it is in our society today. Being able to go to and complete college is a huge indicator to future success. Not everyone can do it, and those from an already poor background have a harder time completing this step.

Finally the last part that is tied very closely with college or vocational education is the type of education it is. Under water basket weaving (just roll with the joke here please) is not a college class that leads to very marketable skill.

So the reality is the expansion of the original trio of indicators to poverty to further include what I said before tying in racial demographics or any other demographic. Because the trio only in the OP's article tends to skew the demographic associations to making it seem our society is far more racist than it is.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make, and you made it much more betters.

If you grow up with access only to broken schools, then you probably didn't get much of an education or job skills. Even if you are the brilliant, self-motivated kid who excelled, any prospective employer is going to see that school and mentally downgrade you as an applicant. Worse, you probably didn't go to school with the new junior account executive at White and Whiter Investments or the new assistant manager at the RiteAid. You probably went to school with the guy who sells weed and crack behind the White and Whiter Investments building and the guy who was busted for holding up the RiteAid at gunpoint. Not a lot of fortuitous breaks and opportunities coming your way. Then when your results are worse than kids not raised in a hell labeled school, proggies want to say "Ooh, we're a racist nation!" Maybe, but the larger problem is the broken system. We shouldn't be pretending that all high school educations or all full time jobs are equal.

 

[Atreus21]

Look at all the colors in the conservative rainbow!

haha. Right. Are you going to tell me your OP wasn't arguing that it's fundamentally about racism in the end?

 

[Knowing]

Also, do you believe that black immigrants who arrive more recently are able to match the success of whites and Asians, or do they automatically get pulled down by slavery/Jim Crow/drug war by virtue of their skin color?

FWIW, my African immigrant friends have middle / upper middle class careers and don't identify with the struggles of American blacks. Of course they belong to families where there are norms like "Your father won't talk to you because of your haircut, so your brother will make an international call from the US to France to tell you to fix it before you make an international call from France to Africa to apologize for knowingly being a rebellious teenager."

I think I mentioned a quote by Megan McArdle about a year ago. She said something to the effect of 'It's hard to establish a norm that the only ideal men are those that have stable jobs when the unemployment rate means that the gross majority of men in the neighborhood are out of work.'

On the plus side it seems that women's medicine is pushing IUDs with a force never before seen so maybe we can put a pin in #2.

 

[halik]

FWIW, my African immigrant friends have middle / upper middle class careers and don't identify with the struggles of American blacks. Of course they belong to families where there are norms like "Your father won't talk to you because of your haircut, so your brother will make an international call from the US to France to tell you to fix it before you make an international call from France to Africa to apologize for knowingly being a rebellious teenager."

I think I mentioned a quote by Megan McArdle about a year ago. She said something to the effect of 'It's hard to establish a norm that the only ideal men are those that have stable jobs when the unemployment rate means that the gross majority of men in the neighborhood are out of work.'

On the plus side it seems that women's medicine is pushing IUDs with a force never before seen so maybe we can put a pin in #2.

Anecdotal, but I worked for a very prominent investment bank after undergrad and vast majority of black kids in my analyst class where first gen Africans or Creoles. That's despite the fact that the bank recruited heavily in historically black universities (Howard etc)