The tragedy of Chávez

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Some nice facts in this piece that are normally missing in our Chevez threads.

30% inflation rate
murder rate is double
food shortages
silencing of opposition media

Chavez has been a total disaster to the country.
A country with that much oil should be a socialists paradise, not a socialist driven disaster.
Yahoo!!!!
Baltimore, Md. ? When Hugo Chávez became president of Venezuela in 1999, I was very optimistic. After all, I had watched this oil-rich nation's tragic economic collapse first hand for more than a decade and I felt ? like many Venezuelans ? that Mr. Chávez's promised revolution was the only thing that could turn this country around.

Ten years later I am less optimistic.

Despite Chávez's undisputed control of the three branches of government and windfall profits from the 2003-08 oil boom, his record is remarkably poor. Inflation is running at over 30 percent, the homicide rate has more than doubled since he took office, and food shortages abound.

At the same time, synagogues are attacked or raided by police, reporters are threatened, and human rights workers are summarily expelled. In recent weeks, government officials have seized foreign oil company assets, and threatened to shut down Globovision, an opposition-aligned news network.

This is the true tragedy of "Chavismo," because there is no reason why socialism shouldn't work in oil-rich Venezuela. It doesn't, because the government is so shortsighted and corrupt. Oil production ? the country's main source of wealth and the fuel for its socialist revolution ? is well below where it was when Chávez rose to power.

While much has been made of the similarities between Chávez and longtime Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, it is actually wiser, given Chávez's decade in power, to look at the differences.

Like Mr. Castro, Chávez has invested heavily in healthcare and literacy, but while Fidel Castro's programs have benefited millions, Chávez's programs have had limited impact because they are motivated by short-term political gain and not long-term betterment of the nation.

In 1961 Castro was able to increase Cuba's literacy rate from 77 to 96 percent in a single year ? an amazing program that employed every sector of society. In contrast, Chávez's much touted initiative increased literacy by only 1 percent and was largely superfluous ? the country already had a 92 percent literacy rate, one of the highest in Latin America. Curiously, the program was launched during Chávez's attempt to defeat a recall referendum in 2004 and offered generous grants to those who joined his political party. Not surprisingly, when Chávez won the referendum, the program was immediately shut down.

His healthcare initiatives have been similarly motivated by political opportunism. While the president's Barrio Adentro program has brought healthcare to the poor in many areas, other areas are worse off than ever. Most telling is that although Venezuela's gross domestic product dwarfs Cuba's, Venezuela's infant mortality rate is still three times higher. Clearly the national wealth is not making it to those who need it most.

Some have gained from Chávez's reign. They are known as "Boligarchs" ? the new elite born of Chávez's Bolivarian Revolution, self-professed socialists with Hummers and yachts. The excesses of Castro's apparatchiks during the cold war pale in comparison to the invidious exploits of the Boligarchs.

It is a little difficult to believe Chávez when he warns that "capitalism will lead to the destruction of humanity" when his mother appears in the papers wearing designer sunglasses and a cumbersome amount of gold jewelry. The Boligarchs epitomize the hypocrisy of Chávez's socialism and show how little has changed. A capitalist elite has merely been replaced by a quasi-socialist elite that enjoy the nation's oil wealth while the masses remain neglected and impoverished.

Chávez has repeatedly said he wants to rule until 2050 ? a tenure that would rival Castro's. With the president's recent changes to the Constitution there is very little that can stop him. We can only hope that, for the sake of the Venezuelan people, he figures out a way to create the egalitarian society that he so vociferously claims he has already made.

Brian A. Nelson is the author of a new book about the 2002 coup against Hugo Chávez, "The Silence and the Scorpion."
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Solution... real democracy and a capitalist system that is based on the rule of law similar to ours and nearly every other successful western country.
 

UberNeuman

Lifer
Nov 4, 1999
16,937
3,087
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Solution... real democracy and a capitalist system that is based on the rule of law similar to ours and nearly every other successful western country.

and how would you deliver this?

\neo-con.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Solution... real democracy and a capitalist system that is based on the rule of law similar to ours and nearly every other successful western country.

You mean just like Mexico? No thanks.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Solution... real democracy and a capitalist system that is based on the rule of law similar to ours and nearly every other successful western country.

You mean just like Mexico? No thanks.

HaHa. Mexico has been governed by the neo-cons into the ground.
Nice point.

However, the response to radical screw the poor, concentrate the wealth policies is exactly what gives rise to leaders like Chavez. And the US is on that track.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

Hahaha... that would be a temporary fix seeing as how he accomplished this by confiscating the property of wealthy people to hand out to the poor. Once that wave passes get ready for the aftermath... a country with no entrepreneurs.

Solving poverty doesn't involve handouts... as the policies of LBJ have so obviously pointed out over the last 50 years.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

Hahaha... that would be a temporary fix seeing as how he accomplished this by confiscating the property of wealthy people to hand out to the poor. Once that wave passes get ready for the aftermath... a country with no entrepreneurs.

Solving poverty doesn't involve handouts... as the policies of LBJ have so obviously pointed out over the last 50 years.

Well.. he actually returned the land to the Amerindians who had their land stolen from them by the various American Oil corps and other wealthy sorts (the govt of the time gave them the "power" to do so). Chavez hasn't done everything right.. and has done alot wrong, but this was one of the good things he did.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

The poverty rates if you think they are letigimate have varied wildly under Chavez which tells me the people previously considered in poverty are just a hair above the line. Nothing to write home about.

For instance the poverty rate in the United states sits in the 12-15% range and has for 40 years. Under chavez they started at 55% cut to 35% then shot back up to 55% in 03 and have been cutting it since. These people arent living a great life even if they are just a hair above poverty. Any economic downturn crashes them back into poverty very quickly. The latest numbers I can find end in 2006. I'd be interested in seeing how the slump in oil prices and global economic slow down has affected the poverty rates. I suspect they are spiraling back to 50+%. This is a decade after this loon took power.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
That is because of the dictatorship, not socialism, you moron.

Want capitalism? Worldwide economic crisis because of a handful of greedy bastards.
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular.

Real democracy and real capitalism just doesn't exist.

It's only those with money who can seem to run for election (and pay for the advertising) and cut through the administrative bullshit put in place to prevent other "undesirables" from running. For example, in order to be posted in your elected position as a republican, you have to take an oath to their neocon lords, otherwise they won't get appointed to their elected spot, even if they won the election. Is that democracy? I can think of one example within the last year which an elected person did not get appointed to their post because they did not take the oath.

What happens is those with money who win elections also introduce laws to keep the power at the top, and keep themselves and people like them in power. Do you actually think our elected officials pass laws and do things that the people want? If you answered yes, then your naive. Why do you think Bush lowered the tax rate on the rich but yet every other tax goes up. Why did Bush give out bailouts to the banks and rich greedy bastards and not the average folks? Think Obama is any better? Think again.

On the other hand, Chavez's socialism is exactly the same. It's just another side of the same coin. We can point our fingers at Chavez and say "Shame on you" but we aren't any better and some don't even realize it. Too much Hannity or something.

The only answer is to put the power in the people. Like our consitituion has intended. However, those others have been slowly eroding away the consitution as much as they can. Whatever you guys do, do not give up your consitutional rights. We've already had power taken away from the people (like which type of guns you can own) because the only way to be free is to keep the power where it's supposed to be. Our founding fathers wrote the consitution with alot of foresight, and really did their homework.
 

colonel

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2001
1,777
18
81
ProJohn still dont get it about the "real democracy" and the rule of Law stuff, in latinoamerica the law is the person itself, just check history books o google "Spain colonization of Latinoamerica" and you find out how USA was blessed with the rule of law. That's why was so easy for Nixon to change presidents in the continent.

My solution: Leave them alone, they dont trust the USA anyway they have the Oil. If we start to get inside the country they will sell the oil to China o somewhere else.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
Originally posted by: brandonb
Not pointing fingers at anybody in particular.

Real democracy and real capitalism just doesn't exist.

It's only those with money who can seem to run for election (and pay for the advertising) and cut through the administrative bullshit put in place to prevent other "undesirables" from running. For example, in order to be posted in your elected position as a republican, you have to take an oath to their neocon lords, otherwise they won't get appointed to their elected spot, even if they won the election. Is that democracy? I can think of one example within the last year which an elected person did not get appointed to their post because they did not take the oath.

What happens is those with money who win elections also introduce laws to keep the power at the top, and keep themselves and people like them in power. Do you actually think our elected officials pass laws and do things that the people want? If you answered yes, then your naive. Why do you think Bush lowered the tax rate on the rich but yet every other tax goes up. Why did Bush give out bailouts to the banks and rich greedy bastards and not the average folks? Think Obama is any better? Think again.

On the other hand, Chavez's socialism is exactly the same. It's just another side of the same coin. We can point our fingers at Chavez and say "Shame on you" but we aren't any better and some don't even realize it. Too much Hannity or something.

The only answer is to put the power in the people. Like our consitituion has intended. However, those others have been slowly eroding away the consitution as much as they can. Whatever you guys do, do not give up your consitutional rights. We've already had power taken away from the people (like which type of guns you can own) because the only way to be free is to keep the power where it's supposed to be. Our founding fathers wrote the consitution with alot of foresight, and really did their homework.

I agree with this pretty much. Even with Chavez helping the Amerindians.. guess where Chavez came from? Yup. he is an Amerindian himself, at least partly. This doesn't mean what he did to help them is bad, it is just that he was really just helping one of his own b/c that is where he came from.. which is a good thing of sorts in that he didn't completely forget his roots.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
The main problem with Chavez is that he's turned Venezuela's economy into 110% oil, -10% everything else. This isn't sustainable in the long term. Evo Morales is a much better leftist leader.
 

colonel

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2001
1,777
18
81
maybe, Venezuela has a big trade with other countries Columbia, Brazil, sometimes the press highlight the trade with USA and Cuba only.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

For instance the poverty rate in the United states sits in the 12-15% range and has for 40 years.

Hm, what happened 40 years ago to the poverty rate...

Oh, that's right, JFK/LBJ's social spending permanently reduced the rate by about a third.
 

imported_K3N

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2005
1,199
0
71
i like how chavez says neoliberal. Anyones who is against this fanantical ideology is cool in my book lol...

neeYOleeBAHral
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

For instance the poverty rate in the United states sits in the 12-15% range and has for 40 years.

Hm, what happened 40 years ago to the poverty rate...

Oh, that's right, JFK/LBJ's social spending permanently reduced the rate by about a third.

Those numbers were already on the way down. More importantly the programs are unable to erase poverty. The war on poverty has been a dismal failure. Economic feudalism reborn.

 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Solution... real democracy and a capitalist system that is based on the rule of law similar to ours and nearly every other successful western country.

You know, the problem there isnt socialism... Its Chavez. The man would have made a disaster of Capitolism too.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

For instance the poverty rate in the United states sits in the 12-15% range and has for 40 years.

Hm, what happened 40 years ago to the poverty rate...

Oh, that's right, JFK/LBJ's social spending permanently reduced the rate by about a third.

Those numbers were already on the way down.

No they weren't. They'd help pretty steady for decades up to JFK/LBJ.

More importantly the programs are unable to erase poverty. The war on poverty has been a dismal failure. Economic feudalism reborn.

No they're not, it was a success, permanently reducing the rate a third, and you're deluded.

Put the clear facts in front of you - a higher rate for decades until the programs to lower it did so by a third ever since - and all you can do is ignore the facts and spout rhetoric.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Solution... real democracy and a capitalist system

No such thing. Capitalism by nature undermines the will of the people for profits of the elites.




It is a glaring contradiction of realities to suggest democracy, that real and true democracy, can ever co-exist within or alongside an economic system such as capitalism. The two are in fact at the very opposite ends of the spectrum in regards to human liberation: while true democracy is the empowerment of the whole of society to act together with the shared equities and responsibilities of a mutual lateral power for the benefit of all, capitalism is the creation of totalitarian institutions, environments and consequences which serve to reinforce inequalities upon us as though they are normal and necessary to an ordered society. It is the two which have been unnaturally forced into co-existence that have brought about the chaos of today's society.

In the current human hierarchy we are separated by six primary points of division: we are first and foremost separated by sex followed by race, education, class, age, and religion. The topic at hand, class division, will primarily be discussed, but it must be clearly stated and fully realized that class division has an overwhelming impact upon all other classified points of division.

To begin with, capitalism (as opposed to a true democratic, lateral society) puts the resources of the land into the hands of the few, thus forcing man to submit to a wage servitude in order to obtain the basic needs of survival such as food, shelter, adequate clothing, water, access to health and medical care as well as education or information. Thus capitalism to a very large extent dictates and controls where we live, what we eat, who our neighbors are, the quality of water we drink and the air we breathe, what fabrics are on our backs, who gets substandard health care and what "higher education" you will receive (if any). Thus when the choices to sustain our lives and to pursue our happiness are limited based upon the financial resources we earn through our forced labors, one can see the fallacy behind their so-called democracy. Their so called democracy is the institutionalized enforcement of a slave class by projecting a never ending dependency on some one else to obtain the food we can easily grow ourselves, the clothes we can easily sew ourselves, the lessons we can learn through real life experience that will be our true teachers.

Nor should we be dependent upon an economic system of docility for our square boxes, when the resources of the land should be available to everyone to build as they wish, limited only by common sense and imagination. So as you can see within a capitalist economic structure, democracy cannot exist. People do not choose to be poor, they are poor because of the inherent flaws of capitalism that pits human against human for the necessities of man's basic survival. Hence the capitalist society burdens us with the unnecessary cancer of poverty and its malignant symptoms of homelessness, illiteracy, unemployment, high crime, high rate of people without proper medical and preventive health care, and hunger. As capitalism further isolates the poor from the decision making process, it enforces the division by class, as wealth is distributed from top to bottom. In making this class division capitalism puts value on a person's ability to create or acquire wealth, which further fuels sexism, as it is man--not woman--who controls the distribution of the natural resources from which the wealth is created. Class divisions also further fuel racism, as the ruling races, not the subjugated or indigenous races, make the regulations of how those resources will be distributed. In everyday life these truths are abundantly evident, in every country that practices a form of capitalism, without exception, from its most liberal democratic to the most totalitarian dictatorship.

Until there is the complete abolition of wage enforced capitalist slavery there can be no true democracy, because the wishes of the controlling or ruling classes will always be of priority over the voices of the workers, even when the consequences (such as the current war in Iraq) are disastrous to the interest of the majority. We also see it everyday with the gentrification of neighborhoods, we see it with suburban sprawl, we see it with global warming and other environmental issues that directly effect the resources that we as humans need to survive, we see it with the lack of universal health care, we see it in the struggle for a living wage, we see it with the struggle for improved education and a free education. All around us we see where voices are not being heard and lives are being sacrificed to the capitalist machine because it is not in the interest of the bottom line, the profit margin. The capitalist barons have their lobbyists, they have bought the politicians who have created laws not in the interest of creating a more democratic society based upon the wishes of the people they represent, but in the interest of creating more wealth for those who are already more wealthy than greater than 97% of the entire world's population. We do not live in a democratic society. If we did you would see politicians making promises in homeless shelters.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
He also has cut poverty in half but don't mention that

For instance the poverty rate in the United states sits in the 12-15% range and has for 40 years.

Hm, what happened 40 years ago to the poverty rate...

Oh, that's right, JFK/LBJ's social spending permanently reduced the rate by about a third.

Those numbers were already on the way down.

No they weren't. They'd help pretty steady for decades up to JFK/LBJ.

More importantly the programs are unable to erase poverty. The war on poverty has been a dismal failure. Economic feudalism reborn.

No they're not, it was a success, permanently reducing the rate a third, and you're deluded.

Put the clear facts in front of you - a higher rate for decades until the programs to lower it did so by a third ever since - and all you can do is ignore the facts and spout rhetoric.

The poverty rate was on its way down, I dont know what to tell you.
IMO JFK did not have the same idea as Johnson. JFK was more a carrot on a stick president, Johnson a handout president. The first program went into affect in 64.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...5/Poverty_59_to_05.png

The War on Poverty reduced poverty to a level. But we are talking a few % points. Which is close to what we saw without the war on poverty. Without concrete numbers I'd guess the poverty rate in 64 was 18%. By 69 it was down to about 12% and hasnt moved much since.

I am pretty sure if we found numbers dating to the mid 50's we would have poverty rates near 25%.

In the process we created an underclass of economic serfs beholden to politicians for a handout. And create a monster in Medicare\Medicaid that is set to help bankrupt this country.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Craig - you are wrong

Link

In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9 million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By 1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 35.3 million individuals, or 15.2 percent.

For the next ten years, the poverty rate remained above 12.8 percent, increasing to 15.1 percent, or 39.3 million individuals, by 1993. The rate declined for the remainder of the decade, to 11.3 percent by 2000. From 2000 to 2004 it rose each year to 12.7 in 2004.


The rate has been reduced from the 50s; yet it has been unabled to be trimmed lower.

Generation of dependancy?
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |