The undocumented migrant problem is getting out of hand...

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daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
I'll address your second point first. You claim:


Although that's a great theory, it goes against my intuition. Considering that most illegal immigrants are poor Latin American laborers with no appreciable wealth, little education, and practically no chance of earning a wage high enough to generate discretionary income, I simply don't see much in the way of entrepreneurial opportunity from this group of people. You could argue that illegal immigration provides an economic benefit to employers because they can pay illegal immigrants lower wages than legal workers, but that economic benefit is eliminated due to the fact that these displaced legal workers are no longer providing economic value but still have expenses, which more often than not are paid by the public.

But hey, my intuition could very well be wrong. If you know of a credible study that shows how the US gains an economic benefit from illegal immigration, feel free to share.

Value is created by work, not by shopping. Shopping is merely trading in accumulated value from work in exchange for the valuable items produced by others.

And did no one else realize the original article is not about illegal immigration?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Kudos to theevilsharpie for a well reasoned post. Wish we had more of that here.

I think it is very important to understand the concept of a desirable immigrant.

Citizenship is a privilege, and residency in this country is not a right available to all.

Most countries, including the US, do recognize that certain people would make great citizens, even from the moment of arrival. They are often identified by education, accomplishment and, yes, wealth. They are not usually going to be hopping a border fence but will go through the required application process.

We, like most countries, do not make the application process easy. It is a test and a trial. Anyone who perseveres and passes has the opportunity to live here and the privilege of eventually becoming a citizen should they so choose. Those who do not can seek their fortunes elsewhere.

We do welcome legal immigrants without consideration of race, religion, etc. but there are other standards that allow us to distinguish someone likely to be a contributing member of our society and those who are not. Exceptions may or may not abound, but that is an issue of bureaucratic efficiency and a separate topic.
 
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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
And did no one else realize the original article is not about illegal immigration?

I thought it was about having an open season on migrants?

But the need to hunt them down wherever they may choose to settle was never developed as fully as I hoped it would be.

:awe:
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Look, the democrats are trying to secure another large voting block. They have black voters who will 90% of the time vote democratic, now they want the hispanic bloc. Once illegals are granted amnesty (republicans not smart enough to prevent that) the democrats will have another huge reliable voting bloc.

The democrats will get their supermajority again and pump out more entitlements.... hopefully it will not be too late before people realize that this obama type of government cannot be supported with out revenues from a strong capitalist society.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
This is just an invasion.

Maybe we should send over a few million people into Mexico and take over their towns along the border.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Your post is a tsunami of ignorance. From the vast ocean of your stupidity it comes to this board, washing away all traces of sensible, educated thought, and leaving behind only a wasteland of foolishness.
And everyone knows this.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Holy shit! Look at all of the knee-jerk posts that have nothing to do with the article posted!
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Gibberish.
probably
Our immigration policy is offensive.

Definitely

who have spent their entire life's earnings in trying to enter the United States legally.
again, an argument from athority.

You argue the people in line are being screwed, but they wouldn't be in line and being screwed if we fixed the ridiculous laws that are based on xenophobia.

Not Mexicans who cross the border for cheaper jobs.
now that is gibberish.
USA is a sovereign state
again, an argument from athority. It is right, because we have the right...

Of course we have the right; but we also have the human and self-interest responsibility to allow in as many as will come.

the fact that children born in the USA are given automatic citizenship
is the only way we keep a permanent under-class of "non-citizen" surfs from forming.

But my major beef is the unfairness to persecuted people who are denied access into the USA because border illegals suck up all the money.
all the money? what money? what are you talking about?

Why not just let those you speak of in? Almost everyone provides more for society than they take, so stop worrying about money: the economics are NOT on the side of xenophobia and a tight immigration policy.

america is a melting pot...but many of the illegals coming in from Mexico have no intention of becoming Americans or assimilating.
"many" is, in this case, a statistically insignificant few.
MOST love this country and want to be part of it; two generations from now these new Irish will be just as "American" as you, sr.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
I'll address your second point first. You claim:


Although that's a great theory, it goes against my intuition.
Most interesting theory explains why our world works in a counter-intuitively
Considering that most illegal immigrants are poor Latin American laborers with no appreciable wealth, little education,
Doesn't mean that they can't create more than they consume; You see, by providing services on the bottom of the pyramid they allow those above them with greater education and wealth to create more for everyone else.
and practically no chance of earning a wage high enough to generate discretionary income, I simply don't see much in the way of entrepreneurial opportunity from this group of people.
This comes two fold:
1.) The number of people who would otherwise be employed in this manner, consuming even greater resources, is reduced; this allows the more educated, now freed form the lower-end labor, to be exploited by entrepreneurs who have use for that higher level of education
2.) The long-term is an ever increasing level of affluence and intellect. Over the long-haul those who come here will have children that will go to school, and they children that will go to school; eventually the illegal migrant will create offspring here, that would not otherwise be here, that are better than the next person down the line when it comes to everything from medicine to technology

Having the best people, which means having a higher population, is a good thing.

You could argue that illegal immigration provides an economic benefit to employers because they can pay illegal immigrants lower wages than legal workers, but that economic benefit is eliminated due to the fact that these displaced legal workers are no longer providing economic value but still have expenses, which more often than not are paid by the public.
actually, with "more often than not" is false. The truth is that the about 15% of those who lose their job to a lower-paid worker have recently failed to find another one, which means much more often than not they do not displace workers who fail to find a job.

More importantly, with a higher unemployment rate there is an economic opening for entrepreneurs to exploit those unemployed persons, meaning that there is, again in the long run, greater wealth for everyone.
But hey, my intuition could very well be wrong. If you know of a credible study that shows how the US gains an economic benefit from illegal immigration, feel free to share.
Mora, M., & Dávila, A. (2006). Mexican Immigrant Self-Employment Along the U.S.-Mexico Border: An Analysis of 2000 Census Data. Social Science Quarterly (Blackwell Publishing Limited), 87(1), 91-109.

Mora, M. (2007). The Geography of American Poverty: Is There a Need for Place-Based Policy?. Journal of Economic Issues (Association for Evolutionary Economics), 41(4), 1191-1193. Retrieved from Business Source Complete database

Dávila, A., & Mora, M. (2008). CHANGES IN THE RELATIVE EARNINGS GAP BETWEEN NATIVES AND IMMIGRANTS ALONG THE U.S.-MEXICO BORDER. Journal of Regional Science, 48(3), 525-545

With regards to your statement that increasing cultural diversity provides benefits for entrepreneurship, I would be interested in hearing how allowing unrestricted immigration from Latin America would lead to an increase in cultural diversity. Per the 2008 US census estimate, the Latino American demographic makes up about 15% of the US population, making them the second-largest group of people in the US. Given the size of that demographic, I would argue that Latin American culture is already very well represented in the US
But, as you pointed out, the group is underrepresented in entrepreneurial ventures. As such the generations that follow are the ones that will provide the cognitive diversity.

The investment of absorbing cheep labor today will pay off massive dividends in the future.

there are a much greater number of people who fear illegal immigrants not because of the potential for cultural contamination, but because of the potential for competition for resources.
Which would be fine, if they were, actually, consuming more than they were creating.

I can entirely see how it LOOKS like this from the outside as well. But this is not what either modern economic, political science, sociology theory or empiricism tells us.

You state that we can always change the law to allow more immigration from Latin America. While that's true, that raises the question of why we should allow for more immigration.
The intrinsic value of the worker.

You claim that we never examine the cost of illegal immigrants against the cost of servicing the needs of blacks, poor whites, and other members of the American underclass, but there's no purpose for such a comparison.
Isn't there? If you want to argue that, on balance, there is a negative cost of a particular population, then you are making a "morals free" judgment. The legal obligation, again, is a matter of argument from authority. The law can be changed: expelling blacks would be just as "legal" as expelling Mexicans if we change the law to say as much.

If you want to implement some moralistic point of view then we have to take into account the human-cost of not enabling humans to be their best: something we do when we fail to absorb and build up the human capital that wants to be part of this country.

American society often compete for jobs and other resources
Jobs are not resources; they are producers of resources. Workers are resources! the more you have the more value your nation has.

the vast majority of Latin American immigrants have very little to offer America that legal residents aren't also able to provide
able to provide vs. optimal are two different things. The cream should rise to the top: why should someone with a high+school degree be suck digging ditches? Why should someone with an associates be shelf groceries at wal-mart?

considering that millions of legal residents are sitting idle while they await opportunities for employment, I simply don't see a benefit to allowing unfettered immigration from Latin America.
This is why it is important to understand the benefits for everyone of increased resources.

yes, the price of low-end human capital flooding the market will be depres the price for a while. But in the long run America is exceptional and everyone is better off having more people to produce more for everyone else.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,565
7,618
136
This is just an invasion.

Maybe we should send over a few million people into Mexico and take over their towns along the border.

Central California north of Bakersfield is not "along the border", those towns belong to them. This invasion runs deep. You're talking entire states lost at this point.
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
I'm really not sure why there is such an outcry against the AZ bill. If you want to live and work in our state, you need to enter it legally. Whats so bad about that? Are the residents of a state not allowed to have a say in who gets to live there?

I will say that I hear that America's immigration laws are the toughest in the world (and, given the chance, I wouldnt mind settling in America I might add), but that doesnt make it okay to settle in the country illegally. If you arent supposed to be there, get out!

I live in a third world country (South Africa) and yet I do okay. The problem is that, although I'm sure the state of AZ would love to help out any and all immigrants, they simply dont have the resources, be it in jobs or state funded resources such as police man power or education facilities. Are they wrong to mandate that those who benefit from such state funded facilities must be legal citizens of AZ who pay their taxes?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Then why do we have a passport office or a secretary of state?

How come we dont allow Europeans to fly here with no passport?

It is all a big lie.
 
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