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[Chiropteran]

He means a courier.


What's the general opinion of building lifesteal (helm of the dominator in particular) on drow*?

I tried it one game, did fairly well, but I was annoyed to see that lifesteal didn't function when frost arrows was on. Yet, the 20 bonus damage and 5 armor was still nice even if lifesteal wasn't active, and it was nice to be able to farm the jungle and top off my life pushing creep waves, so I didn't feel like the lifesteal bonus was completely wasted.


*Or other heroes with attack mods that don't stack with lifesteal.

 

[Zeze]

He means a courier.


What's the general opinion of building lifesteal (helm of the dominator in particular) on drow*?

I tried it one game, did fairly well, but I was annoyed to see that lifesteal didn't function when frost arrows was on. Yet, the 20 bonus damage and 5 armor was still nice even if lifesteal wasn't active, and it was nice to be able to farm the jungle and top off my life pushing creep waves, so I didn't feel like the lifesteal bonus was completely wasted.


*Or other heroes with attack mods that don't stack with lifesteal.

Drow can go 2 ways:

A: Most pubs, HotD is essential. It allows her to sustain herself in jungle & back to lane and never go to fountain. Not working with Frost Arrow isn't a big deal. You hot-key Frost Arrow when chasing and leave lifesteal on when you need HP.

B: In 'serious' Very High level pubs, she's better suited as a semi-carry without lifesteal. She's just not good enough as a full hard carry, outranked by Gyro, Naix, PL, Void, etc. Don't get lifesteal, abuse that op AOE silence and go in and out of fight with Shadow Blade. This is same reason why Gyro rarely gets lifesteal even though he doesn't have a conflicting attack mod (focus on damage & abusing Flak).

That being said, Drow can carry just fine in your average pub games. Open with Wand/Aquila then early HotD & dominate Alpha Wolf (free Relic) and have it follow me. Get Phase, Manta, Butterfly or Daedalus (BKB before as needed). Go stomp with 300 auto attack damage. She really doesn't need Treads. Phase makes her super fast and allows her to escape or close in early game. With Manta + Phase = Race car.

There's no one else really that conflicts with lifesteal....

*Clinkz: A burst surprise ganker carry who doesn't need lifesteal. He gets life from his ult & Flaming Arrow is very good. Kill, disappear, repeat.

* Viper: A bad carry, but an adept mid-game ganker. He should be perma slowing people with his poison, not lifestealing.

* Huskar: He's now interesting because Burning Spear is worth maxing it now & not get HotD early. Armlet, BKB, then very late HotD/Satanic. Use lifesteal at your discretion like Drow.

* Outworld Destroyer: HotD doesn't make sense as his Arcane Orb is the bread & butter. He should be getting Force, Atos/Hex, and BKB as needed. Sometimes I go Mek on him as it solves his lack of passive regen. Mek is outright OP as it costs nothing to him.

* Silencer: No need for HotD, see OD. Get Mek.

That covers everyone in the game. All melee with orb can get Vlad as needed.

 

[Chiropteran]

I don't like mekanism very much. I build it often, but despite the earlier analysis in this thread I find it in practice is less useful for survivability than vanguard (although I almost never build vanguard either).

I find that while in theory it can be great, in pub games most of my deaths are caused by chained stun ganks in which I can't ever activate the mek. Or, in a few cases, it's mana cost has messed me up. And in others I will either fail to activate it fast enough (my fault) or I will have used it earlier to top off some allies and it's on cooldown when I really need it.

Similarly, I don't like the wand. I have a terrible time microing it, it seems like if I actually do have one ready with full charges that will be the one time I get ganked in a stun where I can't even use it if I spam the button. I feel like there are so many little things to micro already that even if a wand is a good value, it's distracting me away from microing my other abilities because i need to be ready to click the wand that it's not really worth it.

I don't doubt that both items are great for a pro or very serious casual player, but in my personal playing I find them to hurt my build more than they help.

Instead, I usually build an urn if I want the regen-ish aspect of the wand, and if I want to be more tanky instead of a mek I buy an ogre club into a bkb or I buy an ultimate orb into a linkin's. I actually really like linkin orb on a lot of heroes, I'm not sure why I see it so rarely in pro games.

For a non-strength hero, the linkin sphere actually adds 1 more damage, and offers more hp as well as giving some great mana and hp regen. It costs 1200 more, but if you need the regen you are probably paying close to that for whatever regen item you match with your bkb. In all random games I can just start out with a roh, build into perseverance, add boots and such at some point, and eventually build into a linkin's. With a bkb, none of the pieces are particularly early-game viable, so while it has a lower total cost the time to finish it is just as long if not longer than the time to finish a linkins.

I remember the first international the na'vi mirana player always rushed linkin's as his first big item and it seemed to work out so well, so I tend to do the same when the enemy team has spells that justify it. Of course you never see mirana in pro games, so maybe that is why you don't see linkin either.

 

[smackababy]

Mek is more of a support item than a survival item. You'll get better at using items. Just wait until you can time bottle charges and health pots between auto attacks in order to survive. =)

Linkins is a good first item on certain heroes I think. However, it is very easily counterable and unless your character needs the regen, I'd advise against it.

 

[z1ggy]

Dota is so confusing i found a "noob" guide on steam, but it really isn't helping. I get the over all theme of how to play etc, but I have played 3-4 games, and haven't gotten a single kill yet.

I am using all ranged attackers bc i feel more comfortbale using those, but I feel like they aren't all that great for killing.

Is there a better guide to how to play, and what items to buy/craft?

And i keep reading about carries.. pulling.. ganking.. shit like that I have no clue what it all means.

 

[Zeze]

...

Simply put, you'll just get better at it over time.

I remember I hated buying items with active ability because it's a hassle. I wouldn't get more than 2 or 3. Then I finally grew it to max 6.

Keep practicing. In no time, you'll be juggling 4 skills + 6 active items (Drums, Armlet, Phase, Abyssal Blade, BKB, & TP as Naix) with ease because your skill got you used to it.

Abusing 6 active items as support is crazy fun and rewarding too (SD with Urn, Medallion, Drums, Arcane, Force Staff, & TP).

Linkens is a bad item generally (even in medium pubs). It's only worth it in uncommon situations where they have multiple anti-BKB skills (Bane, BM, Bat, Doom, etc). I used to get it on WR with Forcestaff and think it's hilarious because they can never catch me (Windrun, Force, Phase, Linken).

But as you get better and notice the nuances of the game, you'll see how selfish Linken is on WR and how you could be far more aggressive with Hex or Orchid instead. (And really feel how bad Vanguard is in current state, and how OP Wand & Mek are)

 

[Chiropteran]

I use activate items, I often build a force staff and Orchid Malevolence on windrunner, or other autoattacking int heroes. I also build tranquil boots on just about anything if I am in a very harsh harassing lane. I use urn all the time if nobody else on my team is building one, and drums are a common go-to item if I want to build something cheap and I'm not sure what exactly would be best.

I just don't like wand or mek much because of how they need to be used re-actively instead of when I want to use them, and how they are rendered useless by stuns.

Why is linkins considered bad? I don't buy it because it protects against things bkb doesn't, I buy it because it is a counter to stun heroes, gives regen I probably need anyway, gives a decent chunk of damage, and it gives more health than a vanguard. Is it best in class for any one of these aspects? Not really, but it offers so much as a complete package.

If the game demands a bkb, I can build a bkb AND a linkins, one does not render the other useless.

But mainly, I can rush a linkins early and have a viable hero from early to late game, whether it is str/int/agi based.

If I try to rush a bkb, I have no health regen and no mana early game, no damage until mid, and the first piece I buy (ogre club) isn't really helping my hero very much at all unless I happened to be playing a str hero.

 

[smackababy]

I use activate items, I often build a force staff and Orchid Malevolence on windrunner, or other autoattacking int heroes. I also build tranquil boots on just about anything if I am in a very harsh harassing lane. I use urn all the time if nobody else on my team is building one, and drums are a common go-to item if I want to build something cheap and I'm not sure what exactly would be best.

I just don't like wand or mek much because of how they need to be used re-actively instead of when I want to use them, and how they are rendered useless by stuns.

Why is linkins considered bad? I don't buy it because it protects against things bkb doesn't, I buy it because it is a counter to stun heroes, gives regen I probably need anyway, gives a decent chunk of damage, and it gives more health than a vanguard. Is it best in class for any one of these aspects? Not really, but it offers so much as a complete package.

If the game demands a bkb, I can build a bkb AND a linkins, one does not render the other useless.

But mainly, I can rush a linkins early and have a viable hero from early to late game, whether it is str/int/agi based.

If I try to rush a bkb, I have no health regen and no mana early game, no damage until mid, and the first piece I buy (ogre club) isn't really helping my hero very much at all unless I happened to be playing a str hero.

Because, for the price Linkins isn't a good value. Sure, it can block a single targeted stun. (until the support gets a force staff or they have another targeted spell to burn it) The money would be better spent on other items almost 99% of the time. There might be one or two carries that it isn't terrible on (and Mirana isn't one of them).

 

[Zeze]

Why is linkins considered bad? I don't buy it because it protects against things bkb doesn't, I buy it because it is a counter to stun heroes...

If the game demands a bkb, I can build a bkb AND a linkins, one does not render the other useless.

But mainly, I can rush a linkins early and have a viable hero from early to late game, whether it is str/int/agi based.

Linken is fine in casual pubs where they don't roam or teamwork to chain stun often. So you can just eat 1 spell every time you gank, which is good.

BKB is straight up god mode. Barring anti-BKB spells, you are invincible and they can't touch you. Linken is rendered useless by 1 hero like Lion (stun + hex). Or I JUST played a game this morning where my team communicated, "Can you pop his linken?" So Keeper did with his Mana Leak, then we blinked in and raped Weaver before he knew what happened.

Even if enemy team has 1 or 2 anti-BKB spells, it may be STILL worth it to get BKB over Linken, because he can ignore all rest of the enemy stuns/hexes. BKB is THAT good. That's why even Storm and QoP get BKB late over Linken. You have zero fear.

Who do you build Linkens on? It's fine in casual pubs, but they 5-man stun you and waste that 4500~ gold at any moderate games. Linkens is still good on escape heroes that can prevent the chain stuns such as Weaver (Timelapse), or Morphling (He can Morph str during stun + wave + ult escape).

Even then they're hardly used today. Weaver is amazing offlane and he won't get such farm. Instead he abuses cheap items like Drums, Aquila, Tranquil. You even seen Weaver with those 3 items at 12 mins? It's soul-crushingly annoying- much more dangerous than Linken (which comes at 20-25 mins, and you're a bumbling 475hp bug all game).

 

[Juddog]

Simply put, you'll just get better at it over time.

I remember I hated buying items with active ability because it's a hassle. I wouldn't get more than 2 or 3. Then I finally grew it to max 6.

Keep practicing. In no time, you'll be juggling 4 skills + 6 active items (Drums, Armlet, Phase, Abyssal Blade, BKB, & TP as Naix) with ease because your skill got you used to it.

Abusing 6 active items as support is crazy fun and rewarding too (SD with Urn, Medallion, Drums, Arcane, Force Staff, & TP).

Linkens is a bad item generally (even in medium pubs). It's only worth it in uncommon situations where they have multiple anti-BKB skills (Bane, BM, Bat, Doom, etc). I used to get it on WR with Forcestaff and think it's hilarious because they can never catch me (Windrun, Force, Phase, Linken).

But as you get better and notice the nuances of the game, you'll see how selfish Linken is on WR and how you could be far more aggressive with Hex or Orchid instead. (And really feel how bad Vanguard is in current state, and how OP Wand & Mek are)

I dislike that all of the higher level players constantly bash Linkens; I guess it's one of those items that is amazing in lower level play but becomes progressively worse the higher up you get in skill bracket matches. From playing against bots so much, where literally every single match has a team that has almost every single character with a disable, I've gotten into the habit of getting a BKB in almost every match, and have found Linkens to be tremendously helpful in the lower level pub games I've played against other players.

I think the main problem is that the higher level players can be much more aggressive with their item builds; defensive items like Linkens, and Vanguard, are virtually useless on most heroes since they don't allow themselves to get into that situation in the first place due to proper map awareness and good support teammates. As a lower level player, these items are great because your reaction time, map awareness, etc. aren't as good so it gives you a free get out of jail card. As the skill rates grow, it becomes more about the meta game than the individual players that you see at the lower rated games.

For example playing as a carry I've had players say "FU" and curse at me for getting a last hit on a fleeing hero that they may have not last hit against anyways because they are more focused on how many kills they have versus whether or not the team survives and wins as a whole. At the lower level matches it's more akin to 5 people that just happen to be on the same side of the map but don't really work together as a team. This is also the reason why "pubstomp" heroes are so popular in the lower brackets, with players proclaiming they are "OP", when in higher level matches they aren't even picked for a serious game.

The big examples I can think of are Riki, Bloodseeker, Pudge, Obsidian Destroyer, Phantom Lancer. That's why I think that the players really have to learn to customize their item builds for the MMR level they're playing at.

 

[Zeze]

But mainly, I can rush a linkins early and have a viable hero from early to late game, whether it is str/int/agi based.

You really underestimate how much ALL heroes LOVE str/HP. Ogre Axe (+190 hp) is the best part of BKB. More HP = directly translates to your staying/fighting power.

Riki = Ogre Axe, get it after Diffusal. He can now leave Treads on Agility for more damage (+7 agl) and nets him a comfortable HP at 1000-1100, not squishy 800-900.

Spirit Breaker = Makes him even beefier. +10 damage on top. Mitigates MoM self-amp damage.

Gyro, Void, Luna = Exact same logic as Riki. If Gyro went Phase Boots, this helps him tremendously. Without Ogre Axe, he feels really vulnerable.

QoP, Storm = BKB is situational on them. It compliments their lack of HP from Orchid.

And once you get BKB, you are god mode. All enemy supports do NOTHING to you but tickle you with 80 auto attack damage (or bz running).

BKB lacks regen? Get it from lifesteal. You need mana? That's what your support is for.

Linken's value depreciates rapidly as you go up in skill ladder (even Juddog called it above as I wrote this). Because you don't have to try to do everything yourself.

Bear in mind, I didn't say Linkens is worthless. It has its unique and necessary uses as I've covered in previous post.

 

[Chiropteran]

Because, for the price Linkins isn't a good value. Sure, it can block a single targeted stun. (until the support gets a force staff or they have another targeted spell to burn it)

BKB is even easier to counter. Open with stun on the bkb- holder. If he activated in time to avoid it, run away and come back after the buff wears off, within a 60 second or so window depending on where the cooldown is. Do this often enough and the bkb is nearly worthless because it only lasts for 4 seconds. On the other hand, if you fail to successfully kill the linkin sphere'd carry in 20 seconds, it's back, and it isn't diminished.

A linkin sphere is still offering hp (50% more than a bkb), regen (bkb has none), armor, attack speed, mana, and higher damage for int or agi heroes.

The "value" argument I already addressed- yes, linkins cost 1200 more gold in total, but it's totally viable to go for a roh/void stone as early items, you basically can't build a bkb as your first item because it means you have nothing at all until you can buy an ogre club, and even then it is only giving you some base hp if you aren't a str hero. BKB is nice when it's done, but it's pieces are *really* bad individually.

In most cases, if you are going to build a bkb, you need to build some early game items first, and some regen item such as a wand & urn, and when you add the total cost up you end up spending more gold for the bkb + starting items than the linkin sphere would cost.


I just don't see the "value" argument, when bkb effectively costs more. In order to build a bkb I am forced to buy tangos and salves and tranquil boots and/or an urn to get that early game sustain. After it's all said and done I pay more for the bkb + sustain items than I would for a linkin's.

You really underestimate how much ALL heroes LOVE str/HP. Ogre Axe (+190 hp) is the best part of BKB. More HP = directly translates to your staying/fighting power.

Riki = Ogre Axe, get it after Diffusal.
.

Well that is my point. If you are buying another item first, you won't get your bkb until mid to late game. I can build a linkin's as my first real item after boots.

And that ogre axe may add 190 hp, but the linkin's sphere is going to add 285. As well as regen to be sure that you are at your full hp for every engagement. It doesn't do much good to have 1200 max hp if you have no regen or sustain and fight with only half your max hp.

 

[Juddog]

BKB is even easier to counter. Open with stun on the bkb- holder. If he activated in time to avoid it, run away and come back after the buff wears off, within a 60 second or so window depending on where the cooldown is. Do this often enough and the bkb is nearly worthless because it only lasts for 4 seconds. On the other hand, if you fail to successfully kill the linkin sphere'd carry in 20 seconds, it's back, and it isn't diminished.

A linkin sphere is still offering hp (50% more than a bkb), regen (bkb has none), armor, attack speed, mana, and higher damage for int or agi heroes.

The "value" argument I already addressed- yes, linkins cost 1200 more gold in total, but it's totally viable to go for a roh/void stone as early items, you basically can't build a bkb as your first item because it means you have nothing at all until you can buy an ogre club, and even then it is only giving you some base hp if you aren't a str hero. BKB is nice when it's done, but it's pieces are *really* bad individually.

In most cases, if you are going to build a bkb, you need to build some early game items first, and some regen item such as a wand & urn, and when you add the total cost up you end up spending more gold for the bkb + starting items than the linkin sphere would cost.


I just don't see the "value" argument, when bkb effectively costs more. In order to build a bkb I am forced to buy tangos and salves and tranquil boots and/or an urn to get that early game sustain. After it's all said and done I pay more for the bkb + sustain items than I would for a linkin's.

What he's saying is that BKB is more valuable for team fights, which occur more frequently at the higher level MMR games. Typically during a higher level match, the majority of deaths / kills are during the big team brawls, during which a ton of abilities get thrown around. Linkens would only stop the first ability, and when you're dealing with 10-15 abilities getting thrown out in a row, that makes it nearly useless compared with BKB which lasts the first five seconds of that team match.

That's why you'll almost never see a higher level player pick Linkens; in all of the high end matches I've watched, I can't really think of any times I've seen someone grab one. The higher level matches are all about team fighting, so any AOE / team support abilities / items are far more useful than individual items. The magic stick for instance can get a full charge from 0 charges during a team brawl, then all of a sudden that's a free 225 mana / health to pop off while your BKB soaks up the initial 5 seconds worth of craziness.

-- edit --
Ultimately you have to look at it like this: how well does x item (e.g. Linkens) help individual survival during a team brawl, and how well does x item help the team directly during a brawl? The other example is Mek; when you look at the sheer amount of hp healed when you have a team of 5, it becomes far better than Vanguard.

 

[Chiropteran]

Interestingly, look at dotabuff's results-

http://dotabuff.com/items/linkens-sphere 68.2% win rate

http://dotabuff.com/items/black-king-bar 62.6% win rate

I know, you can't assume causation when it could just be correlation, but fact is the majority of players who actually build a linkin's sphere do win that game.

 

[smackababy]

BKB is even easier to counter. Open with stun on the bkb- holder. If he activated in time to avoid it, run away and come back after the buff wears off, within a 60 second or so window depending on where the cooldown is. Do this often enough and the bkb is nearly worthless because it only lasts for 4 seconds. On the other hand, if you fail to successfully kill the linkin sphere'd carry in 20 seconds, it's back, and it isn't diminished.

A linkin sphere is still offering hp (50% more than a bkb), regen (bkb has none), armor, attack speed, mana, and higher damage for int or agi heroes.

The "value" argument I already addressed- yes, linkins cost 1200 more gold in total, but it's totally viable to go for a roh/void stone as early items, you basically can't build a bkb as your first item because it means you have nothing at all until you can buy an ogre club, and even then it is only giving you some base hp if you aren't a str hero. BKB is nice when it's done, but it's pieces are *really* bad individually.

In most cases, if you are going to build a bkb, you need to build some early game items first, and some regen item such as a wand & urn, and when you add the total cost up you end up spending more gold for the bkb + starting items than the linkin sphere would cost.


I just don't see the "value" argument, when bkb effectively costs more. In order to build a bkb I am forced to buy tangos and salves and tranquil boots and/or an urn to get that early game sustain. After it's all said and done I pay more for the bkb + sustain items than I would for a linkin's.




Well that is my point. If you are buying another item first, you won't get your bkb until mid to late game. I can build a linkin's as my first real item after boots.

And that ogre axe may add 190 hp, but the linkin's sphere is going to add 285. As well as regen to be sure that you are at your full hp for every engagement. It doesn't do much good to have 1200 max hp if you have no regen or sustain and fight with only half your max hp.

Rushing a Linkins is almost universally bad. What it gives is as good as build up items and it becomes increasingly bad as the game goes on. Yes, at mid game you can avoid a single stun, but late game it offers nothing. The enemy team will know you have it and either use spells to counter it or the supports will get a force staff. And then it becomes of no value. A BKB, however, gives damage and magic immunity for a minimum of 5 seconds I believe. That is either 5 seconds where the enemy team isn't using spells, thus allowing you AND your teammates to destroy them or they are using the spells on your teammates, thus allowing you free reign to kill them.

There is a reason BKB is picked up in 100% of professional games and Linkin in maybe 0.1%.

 

[Zeze]

It's one of those things you'll just realize one day.. we can't convince you after all that reasons and facts thrown in. I mean what more can we say after these paragraphs?

3 years ago, I used to SWEAR by how good Soul Ring is on every hero (even Pudge for infinite hooks). Then as I moved up, I realized how bad it is on most hard supports because the game is fundamentally different and they expect my Shadow Demon to support, not run around and spam ultimate all day and die in 3 hits.

 

[smackababy]

Interestingly, look at dotabuff's results-

http://dotabuff.com/items/linkens-sphere 68.2% win rate

http://dotabuff.com/items/black-king-bar 62.6% win rate

I know, you can't assume causation when it could just be correlation, but fact is the majority of players who actually build a linkin's sphere do win that game.

Because every carry picks up BKB. In every game there is usually a BKB on each team. That is 50% win / loss right there no matter what.

 

[Zeze]

Interestingly, look at dotabuff's results-

http://dotabuff.com/items/linkens-sphere 68.2% win rate

http://dotabuff.com/items/black-king-bar 62.6% win rate

I know, you can't assume causation when it could just be correlation, but fact is the majority of players who actually build a linkin's sphere do win that game.

You just proved our point about how Linkens is good on majority of terrible, terrible pubs.

About 60-70% of Dota players are... bad (just like 50% of SC2 are Bronze league players. The world is dominated by casuals. Why are Bose & shitty movies popular?). And Linken pays off greatly. Even the top 20% are barely decent. It's the top 1-0.1% that finally grasp all items, positioning, strategy correctly.

I mean... you just argued Linken as first item after boots is good. What in the... how do I even begin...

[edit]
Trust me on this. You're gonna look back at this post... and laugh. Linkens is GOOD now at your current low MMR, because it counters their skill and uncoordinated play. Bloodseeker owns low level pubs. Does that mean he's good? No. He's so god damn awful, I cringe whenever I random him. He sucks even if I happen to snowball and dominate with him.

About a year ago, Treant was absolute garbage before 18738 buffs, & when Living Armor was a global aura that gave passive HP regen & armor (like CM). People wondered HOW this trash Treant had highest winrate of ALL HEROES at Dotabuff. Why? Because they figured out that vast majority of dota players (60-70% as stated) aren't good. Such passive aura in uncoordinated matches are outright OP where they NEVER push towers, never communicate, build garbage items, and everyone plays carry.

Source 1

Source 2

You must think Ursa is also OP... zzz.

Again, trust me. You're going to look back and laugh at yourself.

 

[Chiropteran]

Because every carry picks up BKB. In every game there is usually a BKB on each team. That is 50% win / loss right there no matter what.

But if linkin's is such a bad item, the team buying a linkin's should lose more often, rather than winning nearly 70% of the time.

 

[Zeze]

But if linkin's is such a bad item, the team buying a linkin's should lose more often, rather than winning nearly 70% of the time.

Read what I just wrote about casuals.

 

[smackababy]

Trust me on this. You're gonna look back at this post... and laugh. Linkens is GOOD now at your current low MMR, because it counters their skill and uncoordinated play. Bloodseeker owns low level pubs. Does that mean he's good? No. He's so god damn awful, I cringe whenever I random him. He sucks even if I happen to snowball and dominate with him.

But Bloodseeker with Dagon is so fun against pubs. =(

But if linkin's is such a bad item, the team buying a linkin's should lose more often, rather than winning nearly 70% of the time.

Because 90% of Dota 2 games are filled with Brazilian pubs who run up as Lion or Lina and mash R right away... Sure, Linkin's is good then, but in a real game that involves your team actually having mics and communicating, a BKB is universally a better item. And neither should be picked up without build up items.

If Linkin's was a better item, it would be used in the higher MMR and competitive matches. It isn't. It maybe is picked up when someone goes Storm or on possibly a few other heroes, but that is simply for the regen.

 

[Chiropteran]

You just proved our point about how Linkens is good on majority of terrible, terrible pubs.

About 50-70% of Dota players are... bad (just like 50% of SC2 are Bronze league players. The world is dominated by casuals). And Linken pays off greatly. Even the top 20% are barely decent. It's the top 1-0.1% that finally grasp all items, positioning, strategy correctly.

I mean... you just argued Linken as first item after boots. What in the... how do I even begin...

[edit]
Trust me on this. You're gonna look back at this post... and laugh. Linkens is GOOD now at your current low MMR, because it counters their skill and uncoordinated play. Bloodseeker owns low level pubs. Does that mean he's good? No. He's so god damn awful, I cringe whenever I random him. He sucks even if I happen to snowball and dominate with him.

You can spare me the ridicule, use logic please, not dogma.

I have seen plenty of players build linkin's sphere in The International and similar tournaments, so I am not sure what you are talking about how it's a casual only item. If it's a good enough item for Na'Vi, I think I'll keep building them.

Anyway, if it *is* a strong item in my Elo skill level, I'd be stupid not to build it, even if it turns out to be weaker at the highest levels, so I'm not sure what your point is. Even if it was bad at the highest skill levels (which I disagree with), that isn't a valid reason to stop building it at lower skill levels.


>I mean... you just argued Linken as first item after boots. What in the... how do I even begin...

That isn't exactly what I said. I said that the parts used to make a linkin's cover your sustain and regen needs, so you could easily make one as your first item without being completely crippled and worthless in the early game. This is based on my choice to play all-random primarily, in which case you can begin the game with a roh before lane.

It doesn't really matter what other item you throw in there, the equation is about the same. If you want to buy an extra weapon you can, it'll delay your bkb the exact same as it would delay a linkin's, except the linkin's build will have free sustain without needing to buy other dedicated sustain items.

Bkb is a great item, and needed to counter some teams, but I still think it's a horrible value.

Spending 4k gold for 10 strength and some damage is really a terrible value, for example in a straight auto-attack fight two identical heroes- one with a helm of the dominator, other with a bkb. The helm of the dom hero wins, even though the bkb cost twice as much. Bkb is really *only* useful for it's activate, and then it is only useful for a few seconds once a minute.

While linkin's sphere can be "countered" (I still think there is value in forcing an enemy to waste a force staff usage or whatever), it is still giving the benefit of 5 more strength, 15 agility, 15 intellect, as well as regen, over a bkb, for a small cost of effectively zero more gold.

 

[Zeze]

I think we've all patiently & thoroughly said what needed to be said about BKB & Linken. I mean even Juddog, who's new, nailed it on his first response.

 

[smackababy]

I really wish there was a hero like HoN's Monkey King. That is my favorite hero. =(

...snip...

By all means, if you are winning and getting good utility out of Linkin's then continue to use it. You will eventually hit a point where it loses it's usefulness, and when / if you get to that, you'd have to change your build. Realistically, you can buy whatever items you want. Want to run 3 pairs of Treads for the ultimate tread swap build? Go right ahead.

 

[Hmongkeysauce]

IMO, linken's sphere(LS) is a very situational pick up. Basically, it boils down to (1)Do they have heroes to trigger the LS easily? Heroes like Rhasta/Lion have 3(or more) single target spells that can trigger the LS within seconds. (2)What can your hero do after the missed spell? If you say fight, then, you're probably wrong because more spells are coming your way. If you say flee, then, how? Heroes like weaver can sukuchi after the LS triggers and that's why you see if on that hero often. Weaver benefits from the +attr and the LS passive ability.

You can make similar arguments against the BKB. Difference being is that BKB has less counters. There are very few spells that can go through BKB, none of which actually does damage (correct me if I'm wrong). BKB is a lot more effective in more situations and on more heroes.

That being said, I wouldn't recommend getting either BKB or LS as your second item (boots of choice being your first). There are very few heroes that I can see where you'll need to rush a BKB (Luna, Shadow Fiend, Sven comes to my mind) or LS(Weaver?).