You can spare me the ridicule, use logic please, not dogma.
I have seen plenty of players build linkin's sphere in The International and similar tournaments, so I am not sure what you are talking about how it's a casual only item. If it's a good enough item for Na'Vi, I think I'll keep building them.
Anyway, if it *is* a strong item in my Elo skill level, I'd be stupid not to build it, even if it turns out to be weaker at the highest levels, so I'm not sure what your point is. Even if it was bad at the highest skill levels (which I disagree with), that isn't a valid reason to stop building it at lower skill levels.
>I mean... you just argued Linken as first item after boots. What in the... how do I even begin...
That isn't exactly what I said. I said that the parts used to make a linkin's cover your sustain and regen needs, so you could easily make one as your first item without being completely crippled and worthless in the early game. This is based on my choice to play all-random primarily, in which case you can begin the game with a roh before lane.
It doesn't really matter what other item you throw in there, the equation is about the same. If you want to buy an extra weapon you can, it'll delay your bkb the exact same as it would delay a linkin's, except the linkin's build will have free sustain without needing to buy other dedicated sustain items.
Bkb is a great item, and needed to counter some teams, but I still think it's a horrible value.
Spending 4k gold for 10 strength and some damage is really a terrible value, for example in a straight auto-attack fight two identical heroes- one with a helm of the dominator, other with a bkb. The helm of the dom hero wins, even though the bkb cost twice as much. Bkb is really *only* useful for it's activate, and then it is only useful for a few seconds once a minute.
While linkin's sphere can be "countered" (I still think there is value in forcing an enemy to waste a force staff usage or whatever), it is still giving the benefit of 5 more strength, 15 agility, 15 intellect, as well as regen, over a bkb, for a small cost of effectively zero more gold.
If an enemy has an easily spammed nuke that can "counter" my linkin's... i'll still build it. I don't understand this argument against LS. If the enemy team is going to purposely waste a nuke that would nearly deal 200-300 damage just to put my LS on cooldown, I consider that an awesome bonus. Talk about mek being good for healing 250hp every 45 seconds, absorbing a 200+dmg nuke every 17 seconds for linkin sphere is even better.
However, in an all random game or a game in which I choose to random, I'll also consider a Ring of Health is a viable start. Since I prefer to play all random, this occurs a lot more often than not. Now maybe this right here is where I'll get called a noob, maybe RoH first item is considered bad and terrible, but it works for me.
and made Mask of Madness on Jakiro and carried the game (no joke).
Are we getting trolled?
What are you exactly saying here- what is your definition of 'viable'? I was smurfing couple months ago and made Mask of Madness on Jakiro and carried the game (no joke). That item was 'viable' by your definition. It allowed me to lifesteal, chase, and nuke constantly.
If you aren't good and like playing what works on low levels, that's fine. You are basically saying anything works because you are bad and your games are bad. Then what is your point?
Don't roll up in here arguing what is good and not good when you're trapped in the low level environment. I'm telling you. You just don't get it.
It's not a question of bkb or linkins. You can make both, they stack fine, there is no redundancy.
I simply believe that linkin's is a generally strong good item, which is apparently a minority view. Anyway, here is my whole thought process, probably TL;DR for many but I am bored at work so I am going to write it out anyway. I'm not trying to rekindle the argument, I know the majority view and I'm not going to try to change it, I just feel like putting my thoughts into text.
Maybe my medium games aren't up to the measure of a high or very high game, but this is typically how they play out.
Game start, I buy some initial items, which normally need to include regen/sustain items. Obviously this depends on hero, lane, and role.
Anyway, it's fairly often some combination of circlet, gauntlets of strength (if I am planning on making an urn or drums later), slippers of agi, ring of protection, ring of regeneration, a basic courier, tango, salve, clarity potion, and/or stout shield.
However, in an all random game or a game in which I choose to random, I'll also consider a Ring of Health is a viable start. Since I prefer to play all random, this occurs a lot more often than not. Now maybe this right here is where I'll get called a noob, maybe RoH first item is considered bad and terrible, but it works for me. Against a balanced lane, it gives me a huge edge because I can harrass and trade blows but I will regenerate through the damage much faster than my lane enemy, and eventually I can push them out or kill them. In an inbalanced lane in my favor, it just solidifies the domination. And in an inbalanced lane against my favor, it lets me hang out and at least get a few last hits and some xp instead of being completely dominated and forced back and denied all game. In my general experience, RoH as a first item with random gold is perfectly viable and even a good choice in many games.
So, I start with a RoH. If things are really rough and it's not enough to cover my needs I'll buy a tango or two and have the courier send it down while laning, but that isn't usually necessary. The game goes on, and I farm gold as well as I can. Start RoH, base boots are usually my next purchase, and then upgraded boots. I often go tranquility boots (which are eventually disasembled to upgrade into treads or travel) when I do not start RoH, but with RoH I can go straight to powertreads. This saves a little bit of gold because I don't lose gold on reselling the tranquility boots parts.
From here, my next purchase depends on the game. If I am not being pressured at all, but I could use more mana regen, as is the case with most heroes, I will buy a voidstone to finish perseverance. 875 gold for 10 damage isn't a great value, but given the mana regen as well and saving a valuable item slot, I like to get it when I can. The doubled mana regen can make a huge difference for some heroes, allowing farm or harass via spells twice as often.
Other possibility, if the lane is kinda tough, and if the enemy team has a lot of busty damage, I will often go for a cheap item first. Bracer into drums, or gauntlets into an urn, or wraith band into ring of aquila, or start building oblivion staves if i am playing an int carry or semi-carry or a clinkz.
In any case, I will almost always eventually upgrade the roh into a perseverance, unless the game dictates that mana is unimportant (kotl on my team, I happen to be playing a hero with no real mana issues).
Most games, at this point, are turning into constant ganks and as towers start to fall sitting in lane becomes nonviable. Because of this, I don't usually go for a damage item right away. On the other hand, farming up 2100 gold for an ultimate orb, without dying, can be tough. If there is a viable strong item for my hero that is made up of cheaper parts, I'll probably build it next. If not, or if I have a great farming game and can farm up 2100 gold fast without playing too risk, I'll go ahead and buy the ultimate orb right off.
At this point, it's basically a no-brainer. If an ultimate orb is worth 2100 gold, then the upgrade to linkin's sphere is a god damn bargain at only 1350gold, considering it gives you a full half the stats of the ultimate orb, and gives you a minor 1 hp regen and 25% mana regen, and gives you spellblock every 17 seconds. And, crucially, it does this all in one slot. The stats alone are nearly worth the price, when you do the math you can see the spellblock ability is basically being handed to you for free.
To me, it's a great next item after getting the basics, because it's giving some good damage, a lot of hp, a ton of regen, and the various benefits from having stats (mana & regen, hp already mentioned, 2 armor, 15 attack speed).
I wouldn't make linkin's if I didn't need more hp (but I almost always want hp).
I wouldn't make it if I didn't need a roh or perseverence early game (but I often start my build with that, in all random).
I wouldn't make linkin's if the enemy team had no targeted spells (but does that ever happen?).
I won't make a linkin's if the game goes so poorly that farming up an ultimate orb isn't even viable before losing because the enemy team is so fed (but then the game is lost no matter what items I build, so it's irrelevant).
If I go with a lifesteal build, and don't really need any hp regen for sustain, I'd avoid going with a linkin's.
If I am playing single draft or random draft and don't get to start with the randomed gold, I'll often not build towards a linkin's just because I have to start with other sustain other than a RoH.
If the game demands a bkb, I'll build a bkb... and a linkin's. I feel the items compliment each other perfectly, do not overlap, and even the cooldown of linkin's is almost perfect to match with a bkb. you engage, linkin's blocks a spell is your signal to activate bkb, you fight, bkb runs out, and after a few more seconds linkin's is back online and ready to block something else.
If an enemy has an easily spammed nuke that can "counter" my linkin's... i'll still build it. I don't understand this argument against LS. If the enemy team is going to purposely waste a nuke that would nearly deal 200-300 damage just to put my LS on cooldown, I consider that an awesome bonus. Talk about mek being good for healing 250hp every 45 seconds, absorbing a 200+dmg nuke every 17 seconds for linkin sphere is even better.
In summary, I feel like dota items need to cover a few things- you need some regen (both hp and mana), you need some hp to avoid being burst down, you need some mana so you can cast your full range of spells without running out mid fight, and damage/armor/attack speed are all nice little bonuses. Linkin's sphere just fills all the basic needs for almost every hero, the only thing it really lacks is a good initiation like you can get from a blink dagger or force staff. It's not as much damage as a pure damage item, it's not as much hp as a heart, it's not as much magic avoidance as a bkb, and it's not as much regen as a bloodstone- but it provides all those bonuses at the same time at a cheap price all in one slot.
I like it.
Oh wow, Lina has such bad attack animations. =(
Anyone played through the rest of the tutorials?
Please show up in lane with Ring of Health and 500hp.
Same mirror hero, I'll show up with same gold spent on items that would near double your hp/mp/dmg with tango/potion.
See who wins. You'll either be bursted to death or driven out of lane (outlaned).
Come on now, who is trolling? What items are going to get to double damage (+45 damage?) hp (+400 hp) and mana (+200 mana?) at level 1?
Best case scenario with starting is something like a wraith band or equivalent + 4 branches + youlr tango OR potion. Which is a grand total of +9 damage, 133 hp, and like 91 mana.
It's a far cry from what you claimed, and for it to be relevant, for example, you would need to land a harassing autoattack every 2 seconds or your whole bonus is simply lost because the RoH outregens your bonus damage. I might be a "noob" or a "bad player" according to you, but even I know enough to avoid letting my opponent last hit me at will constantly. Even a brief 10-15 second gap between harassing shots and the RoH outperforms all alternatives.
For the cost of a ring of health, you could instead by 9 tangos. Are you really that bad at math that you think 7hp/sec for 2.5 minutes is better than 5hp/sec for infinite minutes? If your laning phase is so harsh that you are chain tangoing, you will be out of tangos in the first couple of minutes and lose, and that is given an absurd all-tango build. I can simply step back with my ring of health and regen for a little longer while saving the gold. Or for a build like what you actually mentioned, the tango only outperforms RoH for the first 48 seconds before you used all your charges, since you are spending so much money to "double" my damage.
Just so we're on the same page, you're talking about a Ring of Health, right? A 875g item that gives you a passive +5HP/s regen?
1) No, that is NOT what he is saying. All the heroes in Dota are supposed to be balanced, and that balancing includes starting HP, mana, armor, damage, etc. If a hero has a lower starting HP, it means that that hero is stronger in other areas of the game - in Venomancer's case, he has one of the best slows in the game. The idea that HP is the only consideration here is simply absurd.Yes. Totally open to debate about it in a logical manner, I just don't find Zeze's dogma helpful.
This is one case where you can't really claim "but pro players don't do it!" because AFAIK, no pro players pick a random hero for the increased starting gold, it's not even possible in captain's mode.
As I understand it, zeze's counter argument seems to be that without the bonus hp and damage of base early game items, you may get instant-ganked and your damage will be too low to hold the lane pushed.
Logically, I find that absurd, because hero hp differential is already greater than the potential difference in hp due to starting items. As a base example, wraith band + 4 branches is 7 strength, or 133 hp.
If a 133hp difference will make or break your early game, then I supposse Centaur Warrunner should always beat a Puck, given that Centaur has a full 152 higher starting hp.
My point is, that small of an hp difference shouldn't make or break the game, or else a lot of heroes which are indeed played in competitive pro games would not be viable.
That said, even I might skip the RoH if I was playing a hero on the absolute lowest hp end. But you can't logically argue that, for example, my 625 hp axe + roh is easier to burst down than a 625 hp venomancer (base hp + wraith band + 4 branches = 625 hp), it just doesn't logically hold up.
Now, there is the argument that the lack of damage is a big deal, but again it doesn't make much sense to me. At best you might be getting a bonus of +10 damage, which is nice, but to counteract a 5hp/sec RoH you need to be landing an autoattack every 2 seconds. I don't find that very realistic, and if you *can* harras that often, you will just as quickly send a conventional starting item+tango player back to heal and/or kill them, it's not like a unique problem of the RoH start.
That's a difference of 95 hp or 21% more than you. Here we go.
[Did you think I was 'trolling' I said all the stats add up to near double your dumb naked hero?]
double your hp/mp/dmg
3. We trade 3 harassment hits. You take 49 x 3 damage - 10.7% reduction (1.8 armor) = 147 - 15.141 (armor) = 132 damage taken.
4. I take 38 x 3 damage - 15.3% reduction (2.9 armor) = 114 damage - 17.442 (armor) = 96 damage taken.
5. I came out with 36 more damage on top (132 - 96) AND your naked SF already have 303 HP left out of 435. I have 434 HP left out of 530 HP. Just at level 1 and 3 hits, I have 134 more HP than you out of your 303. That's 44% MORE.
7. You realize it's not just having +96 hp. I deal more damage than you, take less damage than you, heal faster than you, have more max HP than you. You are outmatched in 5 different ways from top to bottom, left and right... with SAME GOLD[/B]
You can't even begin to fathom how ignorant you are if you think RoH naked is a good start or argue why Linkens is superior and how BKB is a 'bad value'.
Just awful.
No more talk. We've written paragraphs for you. You'll just have to see it in practice to learn how terrible your thinking is. Pick any hero and I'll play it vs your RoH. Mid or side lane.