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[GoodRevrnd]

Zeze is an "omg look at me I'm so pro" dick, but that doesn't change the fact that BKB is amazing and regen items at start are bad. I swear this other guy was on my team last night as a PotM who got a Linken's when the other team's only single target spells were Track, Shuriken and Warlock's DoT.

Regen works so well at low level pub games because it increases your lane staying power because noobs get hit by creeps a lot and get sporadically harassed. There usually isn't enough on-lane coordination where you see 2 heroes coordinate to burst one guy down. In the latter situation, all that regen is completely worthless.

 

[Zeze]

I've repeatedly said I'm not pro & it's not about me, Goodrevrnd... :|

What you wrote just now has been covered 10x at least by us already. It's falling on deaf ears. He just doesn't get it, stuck in the low level experience.

It's like describing chocolate to someone who's never had it.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

:awe:

 

[smackababy]

Your one attempt at explaining why RoH is bad in game mechanics, you ignored the actual hp regen provided by the ring, which to me just indicates that you are repeating dogma you have read on other websites without actually doing any testing whatsoever.

RoH is bad because it offers so little for the money early game. It costs 875 gold and offers 0 stats. You are much better off 3 buying +1 stat branch things (can't remember the name atm), tangos, a health pot.

 

[Zeze]

RoH is bad because it offers so little for the money early game. It costs 875 gold and offers 0 stats. You are much better off 3 buying +1 stat branch things (can't remember the name atm), tangos, a health pot.

As thoroughly covered in here

It's not about him being bad, but he's hopelessly ignorant.

 

[BergeLSU]

2.5/sec, not per min.

But if you have a ring of health, and thus 5 hp/sec of regen, it's very easy to dominate and push you out of lane. At least according to the self-proclaimed Dota experts of this thread.

Just one of the many paradox of Dota 2.

I thought this was a joke.

Then I kept reading the thread.

Give Nyx 1 set of Tangos, and he is pretty much good in any lane for a while. I want to say he will start with 3.2 hp/sec regen with 3 branches.

Getting RoH first is like getting Boots first. Sure, there is one thing you can do better, but stats are invaluable.

In -AR, if you are THAT set on getting a RoH first, buy 4 branches, tangos, and maybe a Shield or Quelling Blade. That leaves you with about 330 gold, ~550 short of your ring. If you are a carry (why would a support get RoH first?), you should get that within 2 minutes. That would require 7 last hits, when you count in passive gold gain. Even if you are shut down, at 4 minutes you would need 4 or 5 last hits to get your ring.

I can't think of a single situation where, in the first 3-4 mintues of the game, 5 hp/s would be better than 76 hp, half a point of armor, and an extra 50 mana.

 

[Zeze]

He funamentally doesn't grasp how badly he would be outlaned.

With craptons of stats + tango + salve, you'll have 50% more healing than RoH with 3x charges of tango (7.3hp/sec), out-lasthit, out-deny, and he will be driven out of the lane. If you run low, you have burst heal (400hp salve) to stay in lane again.

With 5 slots empty and 1 RoH, you'll just be chased away if you have red hp. Then it's red hp vs full hp. You'll be bullied away, further can't lasthit/deny.

Then what, wait 5 minutes to naturally heal? Or waste more time waiting for your courier? LOL.

He doesn't understand these things. That's why he's ignorant. I can't believe he made us write a thesis full of explanation in past 100 replies. He must be trolling.

1. Go play CM and get crushed there with RoH (since u can't join high level -AP games)

OR

2. I'll prove how terrible your RoH is in 1v1.

Pick either one or please, please stop posting.

 

[Chiropteran]

Go play CM OR come back or let me demonstrate it for you 1v1. Pick either one. Which is it?

See, this is what makes it 100% obvious you aren't even using your brain and thinking about things, because you suggest the impossible.

You can only afford a RoH with a random pick, mostly in all-random. You don't have the option of starting with 875 gold in captain's mode. It is simply impossible. Thanks for the tip buddy, maybe next time you could suggest I try something that can actually be done?

In a 1v1 experiment we would both be playing random heroes which would have a tremendous effect on the match-up, far more than any starting item.

I can't think of a single situation where, in the first 3-4 mintues of the game, 5 hp/s would be better than 76 hp, half a point of armor, and an extra 50 mana.

Why can't you? In 4 minutes, a RoH has provided you with potentially 1200 extra hp regenerated. 3 tango + salve start potentially gives you an extra 760 hp. Stats from branches might gives you an extra 100 or so hp. Over the course of 4 minutes, the RoH provides more hp in every possible case.

 

[Zeze]

Why can't you? In 4 minutes, a RoH has provided you with potentially 1200 extra hp regenerated. 3 tango + salve start potentially gives you an extra 760 hp. Stats from branches might gives you an extra 100 or so hp. Over the course of 4 minutes, the RoH provides more hp in every possible case.

Do you read? Do you know how laning works or what being outlaned is?

He funamentally doesn't grasp how badly he would be outlaned.

With craptons of stats + tango + salve, you'll have 50% more healing than RoH with 3x charges of tango (7.3hp/sec), out-lasthit, out-deny, and he will be driven out of the lane. If you run low, you have burst heal (400hp salve) to stay in lane again.

With 5 slots empty and 1 RoH, you'll just be chased away if you have red hp. Then it's red hp vs full hp. You'll be bullied away, further can't lasthit/deny.

Then what, wait 5 minutes to naturally heal? Or waste more time waiting for your courier? LOL.

He doesn't understand these things. That's why he's ignorant. I can't believe he made us write a thesis full of explanation in past 100 replies. He must be trolling.

 

[smackababy]

See, this is what makes it 100% obvious you aren't even using your brain and thinking about things, because you suggest the impossible.

You can only afford a RoH with a random pick, mostly in all-random. You don't have the option of starting with 875 gold in captain's mode. It is simply impossible. Thanks for the tip buddy, maybe next time you could suggest I try something that can actually be done?

In a 1v1 experiment we would both be playing random heroes which would have a tremendous effect on the match-up, far more than any starting item.




Why can't you? In 4 minutes, a RoH has provided you with potentially 1200 extra hp regenerated. 3 tango + salve start potentially gives you an extra 760 hp. Stats from branches might gives you an extra 100 or so hp. Over the course of 4 minutes, the RoH provides more hp in every possible case.

Because that "1200 extra HP potential" is causing you to have less life (which means it is easier for you to be killed or pushed out of experience range and you do less damage. Over the course of 4 minutes, you should have a bottle or boots or anything if you are farming. And what exactly are you doing with the RoH after you lane? It builds into Vanguard, Linkin's, or Battlefury correct? No hero that uses those should be in lane without stats. If so, you are going to feed. The potential healing means nothing when you are bursted with damage. The only things that matter there are HP, armor / magic armor, and a possible escape. RoH gives none of that.

The question I have is: do you find yourself the lowest level in most games? Are you always behind in levels? Because, I can tell you this, you should be losing 100% of the laning phase, and if you're picking a carry, that means your team is losing. If you are babysitting, you're wasting money that should be spent on courier and wards.

 

[Zeze]

.

The question I have is: do you find yourself the lowest level in most games? Are you always behind in levels? Because, I can tell you this, you should be losing 100% of the laning phase, and if you're picking a carry, that means your team is losing. If you are babysitting, you're wasting money that should be spent on courier and wards.

He's in the lowest of the low tier where no one communicates, no one pushes (first tower down by 20-30 mins probably), everyone gets selfish items, often no courier, everyone buys carry items (like desolator Dazzle), no one coordinates and only ganks are from mid, no wards bought, no smoke bought.

And RoH reigns supreme where no one does anything and you just heal.

That's the only way he developed such terribly skewed perception of Linkens being better than BKB (wtf) and rushes it first (Again no one is ganking and blocking single target spells is godly at low tier).

That's the only way he insists on his ignorance when not ONE person has agreed with him here. He won't learn until he gets to med/upper bracket himself (if he ever does). Or say things like Diablo takes same skill as Dota... a player vs monster game.

OR he's trolling. If he is, he's very good at it.

 

[p0rkguy]

We should have a couple of Anandtech players just MM together as a team. Nobody should say who they are when they play and just pass judgement from there later back on the forums.

 

[Chiropteran]

The question I have is: do you find yourself the lowest level in most games? Are you always behind in levels? Because, I can tell you this, you should be losing 100% of the laning phase, and if you're picking a carry, that means your team is losing. If you are babysitting, you're wasting money that should be spent on courier and wards.

Nope. I've won 259 games, lost 251, and I have 3 abandons due to my FIOS line going bad a couple weekends ago. I have lost 3 games of my last 10.

WIN skeleton king 6-3-4 second highest level on my team, 3rd highest in game
LOSS medusa 9-7-8 second highest level on my team, 5th highest level overall
WIN clinkz 6-0-2 highest level in the game
WIN juggernaut 7-1-9 second highest level in the game
LOSS spirit breaker 10-11-12 highest level on my team, 5th highest overall
WIN spirit breaker 2-2-9 lowest level on my team, but higher than the entire enemy team, because i was out of lane and ganking after early game

I know DOTA 2. I am not a pro, and I don't play with a premade team, but I know how to play the game and I am not just slipping by and winning games because of landing in lucky teams- I know what I am doing and I carry or enable my team's carry to win in the majority of games I play.

 

[Zeze]

What does listing wins from your low level of matches prove (vs 9 other people like you)? All your line of thoughts scream terrible.

No one plays premade team here either. I'm 99% solo queue.

 

[Chiropteran]

OR he's trolling. If he is, he's very good at it.

Or you are just wrong.

Or maybe you are garbage at laning, and can't last hit without +9 damage from items, while I have learned to last hit with only base hero damage.

Or, it could be that even if a RoH is the inferior choice (I never denied that it might be, I just take issue with your flawed or non-arguments) I can still win with it because in the grand scheme of things the tiny difference it makes isn't enough to hurt me in a noticable way.

 

[Chiropteran]

What does listing wins from your low level of matches prove (vs 9 other people like you)? All your line of thoughts scream terrible.

No one plays premade team here either. I'm 99% solo queue.

I wasn't talking to you, I was responding to this:

The question I have is: do you find yourself the lowest level in most games?

Is listing my relative level for my last 5 games not the best way to answer that? WTF man?

 

[Zeze]

Or you are just wrong.

Or maybe you are garbage at laning, and can't last hit without +9 damage from items, while I have learned to last hit with only base hero damage.

Or, it could be that even if a RoH is the inferior choice (I never denied that it might be, I just take issue with your flawed or non-arguments) I can still win with it because in the grand scheme of things the tiny difference it makes isn't enough to hurt me in a noticable way.

Prove it? Or keep talking?

Tiny difference? I've laid it out how you will be totally outlaned. You will be utterly crushed. 1v1 mirror with hero of your choice to truly test RoH vs real items on an even playing field. I'll even let you buy RoH with free last hits.

How can you be so thick headed and this much ignorant. Again, for the third time, not ONE person agrees with you here. ZERO. It's you. You are bad yet refuses to listen to people who patiently tried to educate you otherwise.

RoH & Linken only works because you are stuck in the bad tier:

That's the only way he developed such terribly skewed perception of Linkens being better than BKB (wtf) and rushes it first (Again no one is ganking and blocking single target spells is godly at low tier).

When I was bad and new like you, at least I had the sense to see facts, how everyone's opinion going against me has merit, and what's observed in pro games and high casual games. But you don't see it.

So how about it? Talk is cheap. It's not about me winning, but proving how terribly, embarrassingly wrong you are about RoH.

 

[Chiropteran]

So how about it? Talk is cheap.

First of all, what is your suggestion regarding the problem of hero choice? Is there a mode that lets you pick a hero and start with full gold as if you went random? Otherwise it's just going to be you with a random hero vs my random hero and i'll probably get meepo or some crap and the test won't prove anything.

Also, I don't play 1v1. If I did, I wouldn't buy a RoH. I recognize the need for a courier, and I buy one if nobody else on my team is willing or able. In a 1v1 I'd never be able to start with a RoH.

Additionally, I think player skill counts for a lot more than item choice. This really proves nothing.



And as far as your "I've laid it out how you will be totally outlaned", you ignored the actual hp regeneration of the RoH.

Here is a more realistic scenario.

You trade hits, the RoH guy takes 3-4 more damage because of your vastly superior items, but 7 seconds later he is fully healed from regen while you are still down 20 hp from max. Repeat a couple times, RoH guy is still at max hp, you are down by 100 hp. You use a tango. Repeat a couple more times, you use another tango. Repeat a few more, you use your last tango. Continued harras slowly brings you down 250 hp from max. You think about using salve, your jungle ganks me and my jungle ganks you, I escape because my hp was topped off with the RoH, you also escape because of your higher max hp, but your salve is disrupted and now you have no more consumables.

Ah, but you can buy more with the courier! Problem is, so can I. No matter what you do from this point, your hp regen is 5 per second lower than mine. As we level up, stats from levels and damage from spells makes that 5-6 point stat boost you had at the start smaller and smaller as time goes on. You are forced to spend hundreds of gold on additional tango to keep your hp topped off, while mine are topped off for free due to the RoH.

Ultimately, I recognize your basic point- tango and stats gives you a stronger start. The problem is, if harass is constant, that benefit only lasts for the first minute of the game before you run out of consumables. The red potion in LoL was a popular first item for players who just wanted to dominate the first couple minutes, but it was always a gamble. If you couldn't press your advantage and take first blood with the potion you were almost always left behind later when it ran out and you had nothing to show for it. I feel that going mass branches + tangos is a similar sort of strategy. If you can capitalize on it, it's great and it pays off. If you can't, you eventually sell the branches at a loss, and burn multitudes of tangos on regen just to stay in lane, and after 5 minutes you are actually behind on gold.

Your argument seems to be that you will ALWAYS win your lane. I can't see how you could honestly expect to win it more than about 50% of the time, if you are winning it every time then you should be in v high elo or on a pro team, not wasting your time in pugs. My argument is that roh lets me win my lane sometimes, but even if I don't win my lane I can still sustain myself and have hp available for when my jungle or mid lane can come over and go for a gank. If I was hugging the tower and spending all my gold on tangos that just won't be nearly as easy.

 

[Chiropteran]

We should have a couple of Anandtech players just MM together as a team. Nobody should say who they are when they play and just pass judgement from there later back on the forums.

I'd do it. Join channel ATDOTA in game

 

[Zeze]

No, it's not mere 5-7 damage. I did the exact match to the 0.1 point. You will be crushed with 40-50% difference and I will double your HP after we trade 3 hits. NONE of these are exaggerated. Check the math I did.

And you continue to ignore (scared?) the laning aspect (most important of all)- the last hitting and denying. Assuming equal skill, you will be crushed. And Salve gives you a burst 400hp heal so you're never out of the EXP range more than 5 seconds. You have nothing but RoH with 5 empty slots.

When you have 120hp and I have full after Salve, you are driven out of EXP range for 10-15 seconds at a time. That is CRUCIAL to hitting more last hits (gold, exp, deny exp).

You are really good at misunderstanding points. Do you do this on purpose to deflect? When the hell did I ever say I always win my lane?

Not ONE person agree with you here. Your naked RoH has existed since the lowest tier of Bnet and Garena in Dota 1. It's been universally made fun of because it's utterly garbage. It only 'works' in equally garbage games.

Just look at the god damn facts. No one agrees with you here or reddit or even bad pub forums like playdota.com. Millions of noobs did this and got crushed in Dota 1 before you and past you.

It's bad and you failing to recognize this alone proves how bad you are and stuck in the skewed & terrible games.

 

[Zeze]

Oh don't start softening out your initial stance now. You've always argued how RoH naked is superior to real items. Now you're changing slightly.

Come on, kid.

 

[p0rkguy]

Network seems to be down....
Edit - Never mind, everyone should go to channel ATDOTA

 

[Chiropteran]

Dota 2 open to all now, no need for an invite. Not sure if there were any other changes with the patch.

Oh don't start softening out your initial stance now. You've always argued how RoH naked is superior to real items. Now you're changing slightly.

Come on, kid.

I often take one in an all-random game, that has always been my stance. But I wouldn't buy one at the expense of a team courier, or if I was playing a champion with no need for hp regen such as anyone with a usable heal or passive lifesteal or regen. I also wouldn't take one if I was jungling. That is why I said "often", not always.

 

[p0rkguy]

Tutorial human vs human match is still searching, currently 29 mins.

 

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