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nijikon5

Junior Member
Jul 10, 2013
8
0
0
I don't understand what the confusion is. If I have enough damage to kill anyone in the game, but a disable will stop me, why wouldn't I build bkb and linken's? It's not like the abilities don't stack. It's not like the extra health or damage is wasted. They also serve different purposes. An intelligent team will ignore the guy in the bkb and wipe the rest of the time, it's a very selfish item and I can't rely on it alone if I am not strong enough to solo the enemy team after my team is dead. A linken's does the opposite, and encourages the enemy players to waste a spell on me to clear the linken's, which is a net gain for my team. A bkb simply redirects the spells to the rest of my team, while linken's actually removes them.

As far as vlad's and helm, despite zeze's terrible math it's actually a lot more lifesteal than vlad's + some random 1900 gold damage item. In the BH game, I was getting choked for farm and the game was incredibly close, almost equal kills all the way up to 30 minutes in, but with my 31% lifesteal I was able to easily solo rosh. After killing him, we pushed in the mid turret & rax, and the game was in cleanup mode after that, the radiant just couldn't recover. Radiance was just a quick choice for a luxury item with my incredible stockpile of gold after rosh and enemy team wipe and pushing down mid. It added some good damage and helped me push the side lanes in faster for the win. I actually just re-watched the replay because I was thinking about how much fun this game was, it's really my favorite sort of game when the game is fairly close or even when you fall behind but are later able to make some smart plays and turn it completely around.

Really, I don't even know why I am trying to justify my GAME WINNING item build, I guess you couldn't find a game where my item choices caused me to lose so you had to rip this one apart?




I thought you had me ignored. Go back to ignoring me please, your input isn't useful. Not a single person agreed with you when you said a wraith band + 3 branches doubled your stats. Not a single person agreed with you that a wraith band + 3 branches gave you 40-60% more hp than a naked hero.

Also. Everyone unanimously thought treant was garbage tier. Suddenly a pro team starts using him and he becomes one of the highest win rate heroes in the game. Excuse me if I don't put much value in what "everyone" thinks.



Sure, but I am not sure which your dota name is




Already explained above, but suggesting a heart instead of my second lifesteal item, really? The items aren't even remotely comparable, the reaver alone costs more than 60% more than either of my items, and the whole heart is WAY too expensive to buy until very late game or as a luxury item. The radiance was just that, a luxury end-the-game item, and it succeeded just fine in that role. 40 minutes in the enemy team should have had wards and dust and/or a gem so I don't think the sacrifices to my stealth were really as serious as you make them out to be.




Again, you are complaining about my game-winning build, as well I should mention I almost never play spectre, it's been a grand total of 4 games. Sorry I messed up the item build yet still managed to beat the enemy team, next time I'll pay more attention to following the conventional build even if it means I lose instead.



I don't like anti-mage, because I suck with him. I generally don't like manta on melee heroes because it's harder to manage the illusions, and I was thinking that if I blinked it would be pretty damn obvious which were the illusions.

But... "tried and true BFury > Manta > Heart/Bfly. "

I can't do that! The zeze gods would be angered that I built something from a RoH! Don't you know it's sacrilegious to suggest ever buying that item?



I am about 90% "johnny" and 10% "spike". I did always prefer to play my own deck, if I could build one that was viable, but not simply because of some sense that I had to be creative. I did it for the edge. The huge advantage of playing cards that not everyone knows and not having a completely predictable deck. My favorite decks were always control decks, but not the typical blue card draw counterspell decks. I liked mono black control, or jund control, running little to no creatures or only creatures that were especially resilient, making all of my opponents creature kill cards dead draws, winning slowly but surely through card advantage and threats that couldn't be dealt with easily. That said, there were times I just copied a current popular deck because it fit very closely to what I wanted to play anyway. For example I played a cruel ultimatum deck that was mostly just a copy of something I found online, and did pretty well with it.

In DOTA, I'm not yet at the point where I am even trying to be competitive. With 500 games played, you would think I was, but possibly because of my game choices or for whatever reason, there are still several heroes I have not even played once, just because they don't come up in all-random or when I see them in single draft there is some other role I need to play. There are also numerous heroes I have only played 2-3 times and while that is better than nothing, I know I am missing a lot of the nuances of the hero.

That said, since I feel that I am still in the learning phase, why would I limit myself to the popular strategies? It's the perfect time to test ideas and see what works. The lifesteal stacking you think is so bad, a couple months ago I didn't even fully understand the mechanics of lifesteal. Dota makes it stupidly complicated- lifesteal doesn't stack, but an aura lifesteal WILL stack, but an aura won't work on ranged, but a non-aura lifesteal WILL work on ranged, but won't stack with unique modifiers, except it will work with a proc effect. I'm sure it's all pretty simple and straight forward for someone who has played 1000 games, but I didn't understand any of that until I started playing a lot more often a few months back. So, in part of my learning attempts, I use what I learned and test it out, see if it is *worth* stacking it. In my games so far, it has been, despite whatever the common assumption of the general dota playing public.

I see a very common thing among my detractors, is that they always want to play the game the same way. I feel that is a flawed way of thinking. Every game is different, what works one game might not work in another. I am not planning to build double lifesteal when I start the game, but sometimes when I get to mid game and still don't have enough sustain I will decide to go with it.

All too often, I think the end-all strategy is to form up as 5 and push mid, win a team fight and finish the game. It's a great strategy about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time, the enemy team is stronger than yours and you lose the teamfight and often the game. I feel like I can do better than that. If I am not confident my team will win a teamfight, I'll just side push, farm, or solo baron. My item choices reflect this. I almost always go for some very strong sustain items, because I want to be able to push a lane down fast (using spells) and farm through the jungle and still be ready near full hp and plenty of mana if a team fight does break out.

When people talk about how you don't need any mana because your team will have mana boots I just want to face palm, that is only fine and good if you are so single-minded you can't think of any strategy other than pushing as 5. I'm sorry, I want to win. I'm not interested in going for a big 5v5 battle every single game without thinking or planning first.

Too Lazy to break this all down. Problem like it's been stated over and over is your fundamental ( or lack of ) understanding of the game.

A few things:
-The fact you'd state that stealth was no biggie in the BH game means that you completely do not understand one of his biggest advantages as a hero and more so you don't really care about enchancing those core strengths. That is the essence of dota, finding a strength and either fully utilizing or expanding on it.

- Winning a game doesn't mean you're doing something right. It means you won the game. I've seen games where people go off and do their own thing for 30 minutes while their team stomps the other team. Because you build some idiotic or inefficient build and win doesn't make that justifiable. "I won the game" doesn't somehow justify useless builds. You probably ignored my speech about win rates of items in my first post. Winning doesn't excuse stupidity.

- Forget about the idea of "popular" strategies. What peope in this thread are trying to talk to you about is idea behind why something is viable or efficient. You want to know why Zeze is raging so hard? Because he's making an effort to try and get you to see another perspective and all you do is reject it or tell him why your style is valid/more valid.

- From reading about how you play Magic and your perspective on "alternate" styles of winning, I'd say it's more like 60% Johnny, 30% Ridiculous, 10% retarded. You are strictly looking to go against the mainstream and a win no matter show shitty the quality or opposition completely vindicates the obviously awful choices you are making.

- To build upon the last point. Early on in the Beta, I played with a rando LoL players, one game I will never forget. Some SF goes some weird retard build with HotD and proceeds to just go around trying to do random shit like solo push lanes, solo roshan, and pretty much avoiding any teamplay at all. What the hell is wrong with getting together and team fighting/playing together? What I see from LoL players is the lack of desire to buy TPs, to buy other consumables, and just to farm away for a bit to do some stupid item build, feed in team fights, and really have no desire to play the game as a team game but to make sure they are a unique beautiful snowflake.

- It's not that your detractors want to play the same way. Your detractors like to be competitive and are trying to play in intelligent/efficient manners. Actually analyze your actions, it's pretty much retarded. The mere fact you speak about each game being different and yet somehow you constantly decide it's a great choice getting HotD/Vlads. It pretty much shows you're enarmored with lifesteal. My friend who also gets the most retarded builds ever really loves lifesteal items. Basically, you see an item such as blink dagger as something awful because it costs too much without giving you some kind of awesome stats while getting regen/stats items will always be better.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
I've had HoN games where I just afk jungled with Lego (Axe clone) and won in 15 minutes. Does that mean it is viable strat? Ofc not. Mid happened to stomp and dominate and short lane managed to get kills 2v1, so I couldn't even gank. I just afk jungled. And we won.
 

CWRMadcat

Senior member
Jun 19, 2001
402
0
71
Seeing this line up, I can understand why you went BKB and Linken:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/235125469

The entire roster of the entire team have some kind of slow/disables... I played with enough Troll Warlords to know that once he has his ultimate ON - and the opposing enemies/team do not run away, he is capable of killing 3 to 5 heroes BY HIMSELF! Having BKB and Linkens guarantees that his Ultimate+Attack goes uninterupted from 5 to 7 seconds (depending on BKB duration)...

Basically you go into a group fight by casting whirling Axes (range) first to slow, then whirling Axes (melee) so everyone's attack misses you, then you pop your ultimate and pound/kill one person at a time (so your passive speed stacks gets added to your ultimate). Smart heroes would learn to run when TW pops his BKB - so only one or few gets killed, but if all 5 gets caught in his Whirling Axes (melee) and choose to stay and fight - they all 5 can get rampaged by 1 TR by the time his Ultimate/BKB wears off. Basically his Linken Sphere when it gets popped = tells him to activate his BKB to run away or rush into the group fight. Helm of Dom allows him to stay in the fight and kill more heroes. That is the main reason why they nerffedTroll Warlords Ultimate.


You're spending 5175 gold for a spell block that doesn't even account for some of the more critical disables that team can throw at you. Echo slam? Linkens wont stop it. It won't stop aftershock, which means you'll still be stunned. Hoof stomp? Nope, linkens won't stop that either. So really, you're spending 5175 over a fissure and shadow shaman. Not a good buy.
 

BergeLSU

Senior member
Apr 6, 2011
475
0
76
Basically, you see an item such as blink dagger as something awful because it costs too much without giving you some kind of awesome stats while getting regen/stats items will always be better.

Actually, he has shown that he is over-the-top cautious.

Double Lifesteal
Prioritizing HP regen
BKB+Linkens
 

Peter Nixeus

Senior member
Aug 27, 2012
365
1
81
www.nixeus.com
You're spending 5175 gold for a spell block that doesn't even account for some of the more critical disables that team can throw at you. Echo slam? Linkens wont stop it. It won't stop aftershock, which means you'll still be stunned. Hoof stomp? Nope, linkens won't stop that either. So really, you're spending 5175 over a fissure and shadow shaman. Not a good buy.

I'm not saying about his game play - but I've seen other players whom I played with built something similar with Linkens and BKB for TW to prevent himself from getting disabled before popping his BKB... one disable will kill a TW because of his squishiness... obviously the TW players I played with were incredibly fed by the time they decided to pick up Linkens and had high DPS already...
 
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GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,803
581
126
TW is just trash imo. It takes way too long for his damage to compensate for his squishiness imo, and if you try to address his squishiness you'll be far too lacking in damage. BKB + LS is spending >9k for survivability and only gaining 49 damage.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,211
1,080
126
Why do we continue to bother with this troll that's 1400 DBR with awful awful item choices that only works in his awful games?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Actually, he has shown that he is over-the-top cautious.

Double Lifesteal
Prioritizing HP regen
BKB+Linkens

That is actually very true. As I said, I go for the win. I'd rather take time to farm an item I think I need than rush into a stupid 5v5 team fight where my team doesn't actually have any advantage just to turn the whole game into a coin flip.

I've had HoN games where I just afk jungled with Lego (Axe clone) and won in 15 minutes. Does that mean it is viable strat? Ofc not. Mid happened to stomp and dominate and short lane managed to get kills 2v1, so I couldn't even gank. I just afk jungled. And we won.

I see. You define winning as losing. Glad I'm not taking any of your advice.

Obviously afk jungling *was* a viable strategy, in that particular game. If you instead decided to argue with your team and take mid who knows, maybe it could have led to tension. a rage quit, and a loss.

-The fact you'd state that stealth was no biggie in the BH game means that you completely do not understand one of his biggest advantages as a hero

That isn't what I said. Nice try at misrepresenting my stance. As I said, the radiance was a luxury item. For someone who is trying to look he speaks from knowledge, you don't seem to have a clue what that means. A luxury item is an item bought very late game that isn't even really needed, because victory is already assured, but it can help speed things up and just make the win that much more solid.

Just in case you still don't understand, at this point in the game the enemy team wasn't even stepping out of their base or out of tower range. Stealth was finished as a useful tool, except if someone was crazy enough to chase out of base for a kill.

- Winning a game doesn't mean you're doing something right. It means you won the game. I've seen games where people go off and do their own thing for 30 minutes while their team stomps the other team. Because you build some idiotic or inefficient build and win doesn't make that justifiable. "I won the game" doesn't somehow justify useless builds. You probably ignored my speech about win rates of items in my first post. Winning doesn't excuse stupidity.

That is your stance, that is cool. I disagree. Winning is the goal. I will win 100 games with bad builds before I ever willingly lose a game because I went with a terrible build just because it was the popular build. Winning, learning something new, testing an item or strategy- those are all worthwhile things in my opinion. Following a guide just so I don't look like a noob, is not even remotely appealing to me. I'd rather have a thousand people call me a noob than lose a single game because I follow a sub-par guide.

- Forget about the idea of "popular" strategies. What peope in this thread are trying to talk to you about is idea behind why something is viable or efficient. You want to know why Zeze is raging so hard? Because he's making an effort to try and get you to see another perspective and all you do is reject it or tell him why your style is valid/more valid.

Zeze is raging because he is a stuborn fool. He may have the point correct, but when he spews crap about how I'm garunteed to lose my lane every single game (gee, why doesn't this actually happen in practice?) I instantly lose respect for him. If someone makes multitudes of claims which are proven to be lies, it doesn't make any sense to trust *anything* they say, even if a particular thing is likely to be true.

- From reading about how you play Magic and your perspective on "alternate" styles of winning, I'd say it's more

That is fine, you are wrong, but I don't really care if some angry kid on the internet wants to believe something false to feel better.

- To build upon the last point. Early on in the Beta, I played with a rando LoL players, one game I will never forget. Some SF goes some weird retard build with HotD and proceeds to just go around trying to do random shit like solo push lanes, solo roshan, and pretty much avoiding any teamplay at all. What the hell is wrong with getting together and team fighting/playing together? What I see from LoL players is the lack of desire to buy TPs, to buy other consumables, and just to farm away for a bit to do some stupid item build, feed in team fights, and really have no desire to play the game as a team game but to make sure they are a unique beautiful snowflake.

You must have been pretty damn low on the elo scale in LoL. LoL is all about running around in a group of 5. The crazy backdoor protection and lack of alternate strategies makes LoL even more one dimensional.

Dota has been a nice change from that, I find I can win a LOT of games through strategies that just don't even exist in LoL because of how the mechanics are dumbed down.

I'm not really sure what your point about TPs is even relating to. If I was running around in a 5 man group playing like the average sheep, I wouldn't need a TP because I'd always be with the group, but when I use actual strategy and side push and farm and do things other than "go 5 mid push!" brainless crap I need and keep a teleport scroll.

- It's not that your detractors want to play the same way. Your detractors like to be competitive and are trying to play in intelligent/efficient manners.

It's not intelligent to build the exact same way every game, which is what zeze proclaims. Hell, if you went by what he said you would have an average of 11 bkb bought in every game, as every player on each side rushes a bkb, zeze's favorite item.

Might I ask your dota account name, nijikon5? You seem awfully cocky and sure of yourself, so I don't doubt you have a 100% win rating, I'd just like to see it first hand. Also gotta make sure you aren't being a hypocrite and adjusting your item builds to fit the game. You better be using standard by-the-book builds for every hero!
 
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Destiny

Platinum Member
Jul 6, 2010
2,309
1
0
Just to negate all this hodge podge - have anyone ever watch Dendi play? That guy has the weirdest non conforming builds in pub games... for example he would get 2 to 3 crystalys just for giggles instead of converting one into a daedalus.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Seeing this line up, I can understand why you went BKB and Linken:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/235125469

The entire roster of the entire team have some kind of slow/disables... I played with enough Troll Warlords to know that once he has his ultimate ON - and the opposing enemies/team do not run away, he is capable of killing 3 to 5 heroes BY HIMSELF! Having BKB and Linkens guarantees that his Ultimate+Attack goes uninterupted from 5 to 7 seconds (depending on BKB duration)...

Pretty much exactly why I had that item build. Enemy team had incredible aoe cc and if they could bait me into using my bkb, or even if I used it in a real fight and killed 1 or 2 players, the rest could kill me while it was on cooldown. Maybe it's just a sign of me being a noob, but a bkb alone has never seemed that great. If I pop it the second an enemy casts on me it just gets wasted as they run away and avoid engaging, but if I wait too long I just get stunned and burst before I can even click it. The linken's gave me that extra second of breathing room that made a win possible.

The reason people get Manta Style is because it dispels silence. They don't get it for the illusions, though that's a nice bonus. They don't get it for the stats and damage, though that's a nice bonus. Silence is one of an AM's worst enemies, and being able to dispel silence (as well as some other debuffs) is often crucial.

Well, that is interesting. I had no idea. I guess I'll buy Manta Style a little more often.
 

Destiny

Platinum Member
Jul 6, 2010
2,309
1
0
There is a new Guild option in DOTA 2... anyone want to manage a AnandTech Guild? I know there is already a Steam Group, but everyone seems to be all over the place... I do see Berge and Mr. Pendatic alot... but Berge is in a super high tier I think and Mr. Pendatic is from New Zealand?....
 

CWRMadcat

Senior member
Jun 19, 2001
402
0
71
He didn't say he hated it, just that he is pretty shitty. I'm in the same boat, pretty damn horrible but I love the game and own some of its merchandise

It was a joke based off his dota ID (check his dotabuff link).

Likewise, I thought I'd never pay for anything but I've probably spent 40-50 bucks on random crap for this game. Owned.
 

BergeLSU

Senior member
Apr 6, 2011
475
0
76
Just won an amazing match that my team was originally down 26-3 in kills. That was one of the best feelings I've had in Dota, and I played pretty poorly.
 

Grey!matter

Member
Feb 5, 2011
85
0
0
Pretty much exactly why I had that item build. Enemy team had incredible aoe cc and if they could bait me into using my bkb, or even if I used it in a real fight and killed 1 or 2 players, the rest could kill me while it was on cooldown. Maybe it's just a sign of me being a noob, but a bkb alone has never seemed that great. If I pop it the second an enemy casts on me it just gets wasted as they run away and avoid engaging, but if I wait too long I just get stunned and burst before I can even click it. The linken's gave me that extra second of breathing room that made a win possible.



Well, that is interesting. I had no idea. I guess I'll buy Manta Style a little more often.

speaking from a pure Hon standpoint, it's pretty much core on him. Getting a yash before a bkb is pretty fast and easy damage. The dispell on silence(or certain debuffs in general like hag ult(qop) and keeper(treant)) can make for some huge plays. You also have your ilu stealing mana(maybe not in dota2?) which can just royally fuck str heros. All this combined with the attack speed and stat orb make it an easy item and combine that with a bkb, how do you stop him? Get an orchid and initiate on him before he can do shit? That's a difficult task if you're playing against people worth a shit.
 

{bad}

Senior member
Feb 1, 2012
375
0
76
m getting annoyed with MM right now because my team throw each and every game.
we are winning for 80% of game then some pro will go and try to kill 3-4 enemies alone and die again and again or go for roshan or farm ncs while other 4 try 2 defend megas. wtf is wrong with dota
maybe i went to high tier from very high because i don't play as much as i used to.
 

Peter Nixeus

Senior member
Aug 27, 2012
365
1
81
www.nixeus.com
Just won an amazing match that my team was originally down 26-3 in kills. That was one of the best feelings I've had in Dota, and I played pretty poorly.

Those are fun games... during that time when you are down, your own team rages at each other then for some reason people come together and win...
 

{bad}

Senior member
Feb 1, 2012
375
0
76
Those are fun games... during that time when you are down, your own team rages at each other then for some reason people come together and win...
Feels like m always in opposite team :'( :'( :'(
my team always owns then becomes overconfident and starts diving in alone and we lose
 
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