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[Zeze]

He's SICK in the HEAD. Look at him. SICK in the head.

Literally making up thoughts.

 

[Chiropteran]

Here is the thing, Zeze. You say:

Originally Posted by Zeze
SB was a trash tier up until his recent buffs

I've searched ALL of the updates all the way back to Nov 8th, and SB has received exactly one change-

- Spirit Breaker: Charge of Darkness will now also Greater Bash its target

Which basically added a bit of damage and allowed it to stun the target even through a BKB, since the Charge of Darkness base stun is already longer than Greater' Bash's stun.

Apparently that one change was enough to bring SB from bottom of trash tier into destroying Na'vi tier.


Also of note, that change was July 4th, and he has only recently been used in Pro games.

There was a month and a half of delay. Was Spirit Breaker terrible during that month and a half? No. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. The hero was fine, but undiscovered in the pro scene.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Since I occasionally buy a RoH, I know my opinion means nothing.

But I have yet to see a proper spirit breaker fail to carry his team pretty damn far. Even as a "baddie" as zeze thinks I am, if I random or random draft into a spirit breaker I nearly always win, lifetime win rate 82% and that would actually be higher except the first couple games I used him I had no idea how charge of darkness worked and I was accidentally cancelling it before it hit.

I feel like if I get spirit breaker, I am almost guaranteed a win. If my team has some really dedicated feeders and/or AFKers it is still possible to lose, somewhat, but he is just such a strong hero it usually doesn't matter.

In turn, when I play against one I either have to specifically counter him (which I really don't have any idea how to, though linken's helps, another one of zeze's hated items).

Spirit Breaker is eh. He needs to gank early and gank often, but even if he snowballs really hard, all he's good for late game is disabling opponents who have magic immunity. He certainly can't carry late game. All he's good for is shutting down opponents so that your actual carries can get late game items before your opponents.

FYI I tried getting a sheepstick, but I didn't exactly have the gold for it dying all the time.

By the way, a Ring of Health would not have helped me at all. Even if Spirit Breaker had not ganked me, Ring of Health would not have helped me against Zeus.

Have you even played Tinker before?

Funny enough I tried making a bkb one game to counter spirit breaker, but all of his stuns went right through it. Funny how it's considered such a great item but in practice it has such glaring weaknesses, I'd have probably won that game if I made a linken's instead of a bkb. Now I know better.

Everybody knows that Spirit Breaker goes through BKB, that's basically his only redeeming feature.

Wards do not counter him in any way whatsoever. Knowing he is charging doesn't solve the problem, you are still forced to either play super passive and give up all hopes of farming the entire game, or you get ganked and die repeatedly.

If you play in a game with actual teamwork, then yes, it does. Spirit breaker isn't strong enough to get solo kills early game, if you see a charge, then you should have enough time early-game to TP home or tower-hug enough to completely mitigate the charge.

27 to 4 14 minute victory for Kaipi. Na'vi SMASHED by spirit breaker.

I guess that just means that Na'vi is some terrible low-elo baddies, according to Zeze. Sadly I bet spirit breaker will get banned for game 3, I'd love to see him get used again in a pro game.




The absence of evidence is not evidence of anything. This has nothing to do with Dota 2, it's basic logic. The lack of spirit breaker in pro games prior to the last few weeks is not proof he is bad, rather it's a lack of useful information.

Of course your whole thinking revolves around following the common pro strategies like a sheep, you seem to be completely incapable of accepting the idea that a strategy might work that hasn't been used 100 times in the past. I feel like you are a LoL player who somehow by weird random chance prefers to play Dota 2. You constantly use the past in your examples, claiming that if it hasn't been used in pro games it's bad.

What did you think when Alliance stole rosh 1 minute into the game? Or when alliance purposely sacrificed NP to rosh to bait for an early game gank? I guess since those strategies were never used previously they were bad, even if they led to alliance winning their games?

The fact is, Dota is a very deep game. Even the pros can't test every possible strategy or team composition, and a lot of heros and even items are typically avoided, not because they are outright bad, but because they don't want to chance something untested in a serious game with prizes on the line. You can't seem to grasp this concept though, you immediatly assume that if something isn't regularly used it must be terrible and bad- until the day it starts getting used, when suddenly you hop on the bandwagon, like you did with Treant.

Of course Spirit Breaker is a good hero. Most Dota heroes are good in some way, that's the whole point. It's just that he's a horrible carry.

I would suggest 1 point in laser and then max march, max rockets, and getting rearm when appropriate when laning mid as tinker. Laser as first skill allows you to either last hit or deny better since your opponent (if lasered) won't be able to do either unless he(zeus) decides to bolt a creep instead of you. March is great for a couple of things. First you can kill ancient stacks if you or another teammate stacked them. Second, it's good against ganks as opponents will think twice about walking into march, although in your case, a +700HP charging cow will walk through march just fine. Better yet, march gives you better control of rune. About 10 to 15 seconds before the rune spawns, you should be using march to clear the lane. This forces creep equilibrium to his tower and he will either (a) defend tower which allows you to go look for rune or (b) leave to look for rune and leave his tower unprotected. Rearm, IMO, is only necessary when you know you are close to your BOT. Before that, you'll have a tough time supporting the mana cost of rearm+skills.

So I should go Q-E-W-E-W-R-E-W-Q...?

There wasn't much you could personally do in this game. Your picks in general were terrible compared to theirs (Abaddon/AM/Tinker/Prophet/Naix) vs (Lion/SK/Zeus/Bane/SB).
Between the 5 of you there isn't a single true disable, compared to the other team with 5. Your only chance to win was to somehow avoid getting snowballed, but that's what happened.

The first huge mistake was no courier and no wards for one of the rune locations. The second mistake was a complete disregard for the 0:00 rune pop, not a single person from your team cared to even check for the 0:00 rune, so zeus just unloaded on you, then picked up the 0:00 rune spawn (a regeneration rune) at 0:45. That's why you felt so outclassed so early. Even then, you might have been able to get first blood on him if you had just stuck around and manned up when he came back with his rune. He did a really stupid approach through the river and ate your entire creep wave + you, but you backed off.

But really, your lanes were sort of a mess. The game was literally a 4v5 because your prophet was an imbecile that mindlessly jungled for a HoM he was never going to be able to use. He missed out on ganking zeus early, in addition to abandoning Naix to solo bot vs SB and Bane. It's a classic snowball game where it's a lot of little mistakes from your team seem to disproportionately affect you. Aside from the death you give up to Zeus ~4:00 (should have kept running), I don't know that there's much else you could have done.

Well, that's a bit more comforting. I don't play Tinker that often, but cause he's one of my favourite heroes to play (and definitely to watch, it's a real pity he's not played more in the pro scene), I actually wanted to practice him a bit to get a better feel for the hero.

I actually though Abaddon should have supported AM, Prophet should have gone offlane, and N'aix should have jungled. But Prophet insisted on jungling, and I assumed that Abaddon would get a courier until I was actually laning.

So should I have just rushed a bottle like the Zeus and picked up the rune first? I felt the Mantle and branches would get me more last hits, since Tinker's animation isn't the greatest. But in hindsight that didn't really matter so much as staying alive, which a bottle would probably have helped with more.

 

[Chiropteran]

If you say SB "smashed" someone, I'm gonna look to see some serious domination by SB. 1-0 is not domination. 8-1 (Weaver) and 16-0 (TA) dominated, and that was why the game turned out the way it did. Saying SB "smashed" Na'vi is hilariously wrong.

Are you familiar with debate, fallacies, and levels of argumentation? You are attacking the tone of my argument. Whatever, I concede, I shouldn't have said "smashed". I don't really care though, because it was never even my point.

Do you admit SB is a Pro level hero, capable of fitting into games in the highest possible skill levels? Or do you think the two recent wins that include SB are just anomaly?

 

[Zeze]

LOOK AT HIM CHANGING TOPIC without admitting his sickness. WHERE DID I SAY SB is trash tier, you disgusting troll?

Shut up ignorant troll, shut up. Stop talking about everything when you don't know anything.

Sick in the head.

Only idiots like you look at one game and cast Na'vi as trash tier. So so bad. God forbid if Yankees lose one game to Brewers, suddenly Brewers god tier.

You missed 1 month, troll, 6.75 remade him altogether in Oct. And that bash going through BKB is a MAJOR significant buff since BKBs reign supreme in non-trash games like yours.

Spirit Breaker
- Base strength increased by 6
- Damage increased by 9
- Charge of Darkness no longer gives a buff indicator
- Charge of Darkness speed increased from 425/500/575/650 to 600/650/700/750
- Empowering Haste no longer increases Spirit Breaker's damage
- Empowering Haste movement bonus aura rescaled from 6/8/10/12% to 6/10/14/18%
- Greater Bash now deals damage based on your movement speed (10/20/30/40% of speed)
- Greater Bash duration increased from 0.95/1.15/1.35/1.55 to 1/1.2/1.4/1.6
- Fixed Greater Bash not affecting magic immune units

Please just stop posting. You are sick in the head.

 

[Zeze]

Are you familiar with debate, fallacies, and levels of argumentation? You are attacking the tone of my argument. Whatever, I concede, I shouldn't have said "smashed". I don't really care though, because it was never even my point.

I'm waiting for the part you admit that you suck at reading and how you twist people words into your own fantasies.

Let's not gloss over this please.

Sick in the head.

 

[Chiropteran]

Spirit Breaker is eh. He needs to gank early and gank often, but even if he snowballs really hard, all he's good for late game is disabling opponents who have magic immunity. He certainly can't carry late game. All he's good for is shutting down opponents so that your actual carries can get late game items before your opponents.

FYI I tried getting a sheepstick, but I didn't exactly have the gold for it dying all the time.

By the way, a Ring of Health would not have helped me at all. Even if Spirit Breaker had not ganked me, Ring of Health would not have helped me against Zeus.

So zeus was not reducing your hp to 0? Because that is the only thing RoH does, is regenerate your hp faster.

Have you even played Tinker before?

I avoid playing tinker, I have randomed him once or twice and never really used him very well, I really dislike the play style though so I'll probably just repick him instead of trying to learn him.

Everybody knows that Spirit Breaker goes through BKB, that's basically his only redeeming feature.

I didn't, but now I do. How did you figure this out? Just curious, because other than seeing it actually occur I am not sure why it should be so obvious.

If you play in a game with actual teamwork, then yes, it does. Spirit breaker isn't strong enough to get solo kills early game, if you see a charge, then you should have enough time early-game to TP home or tower-hug enough to completely mitigate the charge.

Like I said, you do that and you still lose the game. You lost 135 gold from your tp scroll, and lost all the xp and farm you could have had if you stayed in lane. Boohoo, SB didn't get a kill, he still net his team a 250-350 gold advantage by denying you lane or farming time.

I don't play tinker much, but I take SB every chance I can between random draft, single draft games, and I certainly enjoy seeing him in all random.

I also find it incredibly easy to solo kill with him after level 6, as the charge bash plus a couple auto attacks plus an urn charge plus ultimate, only if needed. Half the time the enemy might just move slower than me and the ultimate isn't even needed. I feel like SB is better than about 60% of the heros in the game in a straight up 1v1 fight, without his ultimate, at that point in the game.

 

[KeithTalent]

Can we please keep this discussion civil and on-topic. If you have a problem with a poster either ignore them, report them, or dispute their posts without resorting to personal attacks.

I really would like to avoid handing out infractions here.

Thank you.

Anandtech Moderator
KeithTalent

 

[Zeze]

Mr. Mod,

Is there a rule in gaming against someone who's willfully & objectively ignorant and continuing to bait others into trolling? Literally everyone has sided against Chiro and he even baited out a lurker to sign up and post because he's that ignorant.

 

[Chiropteran]

You missed 1 month, troll, 6.75 remade him altogether in Oct..

10 months ago was a "recent buff"? Seriously?

 

[CWRMadcat]

Are you familiar with debate, fallacies, and levels of argumentation? You are attacking the tone of my argument. Whatever, I concede, I shouldn't have said "smashed". I don't really care though, because it was never even my point.

Do you admit SB is a Pro level hero, capable of fitting into games in the highest possible skill levels? Or do you think the two recent wins that include SB are just anomaly?

I'm not convinced he's a pro level hero. Kalpi is using him as a 4/5, and Na'vi turned it around on them in game 2. There are just too many ways to build lineups that neutralize him as a threat.

 

[Zeze]

10 months ago was a "recent buff"? Seriously?

Still waiting for your admission of your sickness. In your mind, I said SB is a trash tier currently. Tell me where I said it.

You embarrassingly got called on it, and change topic about SB's buffs. Then talk about November. LOL.

 

[Chiropteran]

Still waiting for your admission of your sickness. In your mind, I said SB is a trash tier currently. Tell me where I said it.

You embarrassingly got called on it, and change topic about SB's buffs. Then talk about November. LOL.

You said he was trash tier until recent buffs. He hasn't had ANY buffs for the last month and a half. Based on standard definition of recent, I took what you said to imply that he was still trash tier.

I wasn't aware that you considered events that occurred before this thread was even started to be "recent".

Especially considering how you disregard examples of pro games where linkens sphere was used, simply because those pro games were a year old.

 

[Zeze]

You said he was trash tier until recent buffs. He hasn't had ANY buffs for the last month and a half. Based on standard definition of recent, I took what you said to imply that he was still trash tier.

I wasn't aware that you considered events that occurred before this thread was even started to be "recent".

Especially considering how you disregard examples of pro games where linkens sphere was used, simply because those pro games were a year old.

You know that that's recent if you ask any Dota veterans?

Dota has been going on for nearly a decade. Just a year ago, Morphling reigned supreme. That was just last year, that's recent.

Do you realize how bad you are and you shouldn't talk? I mean why do you talk to us as if you know better when you haven't even played all heroes at least once?

I mean you do realize no one has agreed with you once here? That isn't because you're some kind of a hidden revolutionary genius and we're a sheeple pro-followers (lol).

We all disagree with you because you're just another bad player stuck in a bad mindset who thinks his bad ways would work in higher games.

You have to know this yes? I know you do, deep inside.

 

[Chiropteran]

You know that that's recent if you ask any Dota veterans?

Dota has been going on for nearly a decade. Just a year ago, Morphling reigned supreme. That was just last year, that's recent.

Do you realize how bad you are and you shouldn't talk? I mean why do you talk to us as if you know better when you haven't even played all heroes at least once?

I mean you do realize no one has agreed with you once here? That isn't because you're some kind of a hidden revolutionary genius and we're a sheeple pro-followers (lol).

We all disagree with you because you're just another bad player stuck in a bad mindset who thinks his bad ways would work in higher games.

You have to know this yes? I know you do, deep inside.

Apparently I'm not as insecure as you, to need validation from my peers about all my ideas. Also, plenty of people have agreed with me, even you have, in the past, before you decided to start a witch hunt because I disagreed with you.

Also, this is a forum, for discussion of ideas. I find it insulting when you act like every possible idea has already been considered and used. If you actually watch Pro level games, it's plainly obvious that this is NOT TRUE. You see new hero choices, new strategy, gambits that succeed or fail all the time. And sometimes the payoff is huge. Dota is a deep enough game that using past example to prove your points is just a flawed way to go about things. Much of the time, a strategy never worked in the past because it wasn't even tried. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Excuse me if I don't accept all your claims at face value, but when even the highest level pro teams need to reevaluate old strategies it's obvious to me that the guy who's whole argument is "that is how it has always been" isn't really handing out the best possible advice.

You could tone down the arrogance a little, admit something like "I don't know why RoH sucks but it's never worked out", but you seem unwilling to do that. That whole argument only occurred because you kept making ridiculous and obviously untrue statements about how you had "double" my hp or "60%" more stats and damage.

I'm fine with being proven wrong, I can accept it. My problem is when you make obviously false statements to "prove" something and then continually misrepresent my position to make me look bad.

 

[Zeze]

I don't use the majority opinion as the validation. I use it as a final means of getting through your head that maybe, JUST maybe you'd consider for a moment that you're absolutely, horribly wrong.

I know why RoH sucks. That's not up for debate. It's not an item where I would say "it's a mystery why it never worked out for me'. It's flat out terrible and doesn't work in games above your level. I've learned it through years of playing and felt it myself what an horrible item it is. It is never up for a debate and no one will validate for it.

There's no arrogance in me. I'm the LAST person who'd act arrogant over a video game. Look at this thread I created, look at the help I've been trying to provide. It's just you. Your level of insistent ignorance while being admittedly bad at this game gets a rise out of most people here.

You should try being humble if you're so new. You are quite bad (your dotabuff). I mean this with no ego- almost 90% of things you've said here are near-objectively wrong.

And no, you should thank US. Your awful yet insistent ignorance would've been eaten alive in all other Dota forums where it's not as tolerating and accepting of noobs.

I'll tone down my so-called 'arrogance' towards you, if you learn to be humble and shut up once in awhile and think why no one agrees with you.

 

[Evilviking]

Wow, tried reading through this all... think I will give this title a try. Looks pretty good. Add long as I don't have to spend cash

 

[KaOTiK]

*masturbates furiously*

 

[CWRMadcat]

$2.6 million stretch goal reached! Immortal items for all compendium owners .

 

[Zeze]

Wow, tried reading through this all... think I will give this title a try. Looks pretty good. Add long as I don't have to spend cash

Give it a go. It's 100% free-to-play and you never have to pay to get any kind of advantage.

If you have any questions, ask them here. We'll help you out!

 

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[BergeLSU]

Wow, tried reading through this all... think I will give this title a try. Looks pretty good. Add long as I don't have to spend cash

Props to you for reading the last 10 pages and not staying far far away from this game.

 

[Zeze]

More Dota 2 comics for your pleasure.

You know.. Anti-mage.