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Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
LC probably wasn't play tested against this final patch build, so they have to re-play test him to make sure he is balanced going forward. That could be a big reason he wasn't released along side this huge patch.
Fair enough, but I just wish they'd hurry up. Call me a pubber, but he (she?) is a fun hero to play.
 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
Do you guys think it's possible to get decent at Dota (say, defined as 90th percentile) by only playing and never watching pro games or following the pro scene?

What about 95th percentile?

The reason I ask is I've never really followed the pro scene, or watched a single pro game. I don't know why; perhaps I just feel so inferior when I do, or I get somewhat bored.

I would totally jump at the chance to play with semi-pro people though (I'd want to be the worst player on the team, but to learn as I go along and get better a result). But watching a game is just so . I don't know.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
1204 movement speed from his new stackable, capless Thirst.

\

Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMEnmas9Ezo

fountain to fountain in 14 seconds.

That is incredibly dumb. Why isn't movement speed capped? I can hear the pubs crying already.

Do you guys think it's possible to get decent at Dota (say, defined as 90th percentile) by only playing and never watching pro games or following the pro scene?

What about 95th percentile?

The reason I ask is I've never really followed the pro scene, or watched a single pro game. I don't know why; perhaps I just feel so inferior when I do, or I get somewhat bored.

I would totally jump at the chance to play with semi-pro people though (I'd want to be the worst player on the team, but to learn as I go along and get better a result). But watching a game is just so . I don't know.
Mechanically, it is possible. But the optimal builds and strats are developed, tested, and proven in the competitive scene. You could get to that, but it would be entirely easier to do it with the most accurate knowledge.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
That is incredibly dumb. Why isn't movement speed capped? I can hear the pubs crying already.

Same reason SB charges past 522ms. Dota is full of exceptions- gameplay and fun is given priority than strictly enforcing rules.

What you saw is with all 5 enemy heroes having -50% hp. That doesn't happen often. Icefrog extensively tests new stuff again, and again, and again, and again before it makes it to Test Client (and SO many things that were scrapped and we never saw).

So it's not 'incredibly dumb' if it made it to the final patch. What you saw in the video happens as often as landing 5-man blackhole.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Same reason SB charges past 522ms. Dota is full of exceptions- gameplay and fun is given priority than strictly enforcing rules.

What you saw is with all 5 enemy heroes having -50% hp. That doesn't happen often. Icefrog extensively tests new stuff again, and again, and again, and again before it makes it to Test Client (and SO many things that were scrapped and we never saw).

So it's not 'incredibly dumb' if it made it to the final patch. What you saw in the video happens as often as landing 5-man blackhole.

I know. I can just imagine a Bloodseeker buying back after they lose a team fight and all the enemy team is low.
 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
Btw, I like some of the changes, but I'm wondering what it means when something is dodgeable. Say with Ignite.
 

{bad}

Senior member
Feb 1, 2012
375
0
76
Shadow Shaman Serpent Wards now have a new placement structure.



Linken's Sphere can now be cast on allies as of patch 6.79. Here is how it looks in the game.

 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
Shadow Shaman Serpent Wards now have a new placement structure.



Linken's Sphere can now be cast on allies as of patch 6.79. Here is how it looks in the game.

Wow.

My favorite hero gets a huge buff and change (didn't notice it before), and perhaps now Linken's is more useful.

Athough I'm wondering why the ward placement isn't symmetric rather than "forward"? I figure they change it as such to make it easier to trap heroes and such, but why do you think the outer two wards aren't in the middle, rather than the front?
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
I feel like they are really nerfing buybacks for no reason. Adding an extra respawn timer and taking away unreliable gold is rather harsh. Buybacks are already on a long timer (unlike in say HoN where you can use them instantly back to back if you have the gold).

It just seems like they are forcing a buy back to be an all in strategy because you're massively screwed afterwards. You can't buyback during a team fight in your base, clean up the other team real quick, and then continue to farm to help offset that cost.

It might almost be worth it to buy back earlier in the game to insure early team fight wins (or clean up after a team fight).
 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
I feel like they are really nerfing buybacks for no reason. Adding an extra respawn timer and taking away unreliable gold is rather harsh. Buybacks are already on a long timer (unlike in say HoN where you can use them instantly back to back if you have the gold).

It just seems like they are forcing a buy back to be an all in strategy because you're massively screwed afterwards. You can't buyback during a team fight in your base, clean up the other team real quick, and then continue to farm to help offset that cost.

It might almost be worth it to buy back earlier in the game to insure early team fight wins (or clean up after a team fight).
Maybe I asked this before, but how good are you at Dota?
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Maybe I asked this before, but how good are you at Dota?

I don't know. I would say above average. I actually don't play a ton of Dota 2. I played quite a bit of HoN and Dota, but just haven't fully transitioned (despite not playing HoN). I was around 1850 in HoN on a couple accounts. I can easily hold my own in High rated games goofing around. I really only like to play gankers though and man up / go in far more than I should, but that is what I find fun. I have to actually try when I play Very High with my friends (but we are also queue as 5, so we get other groups of 5).

I do follow the competitive scene though, or at least the big tournaments.
 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
I don't know. I would say above average. I actually don't play a ton of Dota 2. I played quite a bit of HoN and Dota, but just haven't fully transitioned (despite not playing HoN). I was around 1850 in HoN on a couple accounts. I can easily hold my own in High rated games goofing around. I really only like to play gankers though and man up / go in far more than I should, but that is what I find fun. I have to actually try when I play Very High with my friends (but we are also queue as 5, so we get other groups of 5).

I do follow the competitive scene though, or at least the big tournaments.
I see.

I never played HoN or LoL. I'm just an oldschool Dota 1 player (I started playing around 2004).

I'm looking for a decent 5 man team (so far, I'm usually the best player on the 5 man parties I do join, which is not what I want). So if you want another Dota 2 gamer friend, message me on PM.
 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
A bit off topic:

I'm wondering if hero W/L mean anything (other than "best played heroes" being displayed in your profile)?

I'm actually afraid to ruin my good W/L ratios with my favourite heroes (specifically Shadow Shaman, as I am 9-3 with him). As a result, I don't really play them at all.

It's strange actually, because I find being a support hero means that, no matter how good you play, if your allies don't know how to play with you or carry if they're meant to, you will still lose. Perhaps somehow, I lucked out most times I play Shadow Shaman and got a half decent team.

Some other W/L ratios I'm concerned about ruining:

Necrolyte 21-8
Abaddon 21-13 (this one is getting dangerously close to being 50/50)

An example of a W/L that got ruined over time was my Witch Doctor. At one point, I was something like 100-65 with him, but now it's an unimpressive 108-85. Incidentally, I recently started going more support with him rather than a semi-carry type build. Maybe that lends some credence to the thinking that a good support player will still lose if paired with bad carries/non supports.

But yea, this is another reason I want some good players to party up with.
 
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{bad}

Senior member
Feb 1, 2012
375
0
76
Slark cannot be revealed under Shadow Dance even with True Sight now. The hero has been disabled from Captain's Mode temporarily.





Poor CM
 

{bad}

Senior member
Feb 1, 2012
375
0
76
Pugna's Life Drain will now start stealing Mana if you are already at full health.





its around 2.30 AM so me going 2 sleep now.
bb all
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
A bit off topic:

I'm wondering if hero W/L mean anything (other than "best played heroes" being displayed in your profile)?

I'm actually afraid to ruin my good W/L ratios with my favourite heroes (specifically Shadow Shaman, as I am 9-3 with him). As a result, I don't really play them at all.

It's strange actually, because I find being a support hero means that, no matter how good you play, if your allies don't know how to play with you or carry if they're meant to, you will still lose. Perhaps somehow, I lucked out most times I play Shadow Shaman and got a half decent team.

Some other W/L ratios I'm concerned about ruining:

Necrolyte 21-8
Abaddon 21-13 (this one is getting dangerously close to being 50/50)

An example of a W/L that got ruined over time was my Witch Doctor. At one point, I was something like 100-65 with him, but now it's an unimpressive 108-85. Incidentally, I recently started going more support with him rather than a semi-carry type build. Maybe that lends some credence to the thinking that a good support player will still lose if paired with bad carries/non supports.

But yea, this is another reason I want some good players to party up with.

Winrate doesn't equate to skill, you know this?

I'm sick of typing this again, but here goes.

There are games you are supposed to win or lose. It's possible to have lower winrate and be better than others with higher. That's how ELO rating and Dota 2's MM works.

If your winrate is 55%+ that means you are either:

1) Top 0.01%+ and better. You are truly better than +50% of players among you including your equally skilled peers.

2) Your winrate hasn't stabilized. You are still climbing ladder and your winrate WILL adjust down to 50%.

Obviously 99.99% of us (and you reading this) fall under #2.

-I had 100% winrate at first 10 games.
-75% at first 50 wins
-58-60% at first 500 wins (that's 1000 games)
-55-53% at 1000 wins
-STILL declined down to 49.5-50.5% at 2000 wins (4000 games)

My Dotabuff DBR was 2200, 99.9% percentile, higher than most other players with 52-53% winrate at 1900-2000 score (96-99% percentile) Now DBR was criticized by Valve to be flawed, but they put a lot of work in it and it holds SOME merit.



And this was playing the game not seriously because I want to have fun foremost, I pick whoever I desire most of the time and random 80% of the time.

So case in point, it's completely useless to focus on winrate. If that stops you from playing, you're effectively doing the exact OPPOSITE of getting better.

Just keep playing. No one cares about 21-8 Necro or 21-13 Abba from owning bottom scrubs (or any pubs, including myself) Winrate is literally a meaningless figure while MM still places you in where you belong.

I'm still a nobody at top 0.1% & 2100 rating, because the skill gap is NIGHT & DAY compared to truly gifted players at 2400-2700, 3000 rating (top 0.001% to 0.000001%+++). And I don't care, because I play for fun. Just random most of the time.

Stop being so worried about winrate and your skill. Sorry to sound blunt, but if you've been playing since Dota 1 and you're only where you are at, you'll never be truly good, let alone good. Just have fun like most of us.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86

What he said. Don't worry about your win rate because eventually it will normalize. The MM system will place you where you are expected to win and lose about the same number of games. Now, that doesn't mean you won't have streaks of either. You can go on a crazy streak and win 25 games in a row, but chances are, you will start getting match up against people who are better than you and you'll lose some. Hopefully, you can get better, and not lose 25 in a row to get back down, thus slowly climbing up in skill.

A lot of times, you winning or losing isn't about just you. You can play exceptional, but if your team just isn't playing as well, you can easily still lose.
 

Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
Winrate doesn't equate to skill, you know this?

I'm sick of typing this again, but here goes.

There are games you are supposed to win or lose. It's possible to have lower winrate and be better than others with higher. That's how ELO rating and Dota 2's MM works.

If your winrate is 55%+ that means you are either:

1) Top 0.01%+ and better. You are truly better than +50% of players among you including your equally skilled peers.

2) Your winrate hasn't stabilized. You are still climbing ladder and your winrate WILL adjust down to 50%.

Obviously 99.99% of us (and you reading this) fall under #2.

-I had 100% winrate at first 10 games.
-75% at first 50 wins
-58-60% at first 500 wins (that's 1000 games)
-55-53% at 1000 wins
-STILL declined down to 49.5-50.5% at 2000 wins (4000 games)

My Dotabuff DBR was 2200, 99.9% percentile, higher than most other players with 52-53% winrate at 1900-2000 score (96-99% percentile) Now DBR was criticized by Valve to be flawed, but they put a lot of work in it and it holds SOME merit.



And this was playing the game not seriously because I want to have fun foremost, I pick whoever I desire most of the time and random 80% of the time.

So case in point, it's completely useless to focus on winrate. If that stops you from playing, you're effectively doing the exact OPPOSITE of getting better.

Just keep playing. No one cares about 21-8 Necro or 21-13 Abba from owning bottom scrubs (or any pubs, including myself) Winrate is literally a meaningless figure while MM still places you in where you belong.

I'm still a nobody at top 0.1% & 2100 rating, because the skill gap is NIGHT & DAY compared to truly gifted players at 2400-2700, 3000 rating (top 0.001% to 0.000001%+++). And I don't care, because I play for fun. Just random most of the time.

Stop being so worried about winrate and your skill. Sorry to sound blunt, but if you've been playing since Dota 1 and you're only where you are at, you'll never be truly good, let alone good. Just have fun like most of us.
Lol, you come off as both nice, and elitist, in your post. You need to get over yourself. And if you're truly sick of saying it over and over, then don't say it again?

Btw I wasn't posting my W/L to brag, I was just talking about a game I enjoy playing.

Jeebs, I can see why you got into arguments with people earlier in this thread. I can also see why you ignored my PMs and such earlier, and ignored me on Steam when I added you even though you said I could. But if it's a public space such as this thread, you want to keep up appearances, so you still respond (not to mention you're probably biased since it's your own thread). :/

Also, I think your standard of being "truly good" is a bit wonky, and I also don't necessarily agree with your assessment on whether someone can become truly good or not through hard work alone - I mean, you may have the wrong attitude going about this. But whatever, that's just my opinion.
 
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Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
If I did come across as elitist, then I'm sorry.

But my point made is a fact. I frankly don't care if you think I'm good or not because I don't give a crap. I'm just another nobody pubstar no different than you.

1. I'm sorry if it stung a bit, but it's true. My point is that you just go have fun.

2. If you are really dedicated to being really good, then I'm just correcting you about winrate and how your view of 'afraid to play x hero because winrate may go down' is exactly counterproductive.

Huh I ignored your PMs? I quit Dota 2 few weeks ago. I even remember PMing you back saying so.

Again, sorry if I was brash. I mean no disrespect. I'm a nobody, nor do I care about 'keeping up my dota 2 appearance'. Pfft, I suck.

[edit]
Meh, I gotta work on my delivery. I suck at placing myself on the receiving end when I write stuff. I apologize.
 
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Turbonium

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2003
2,109
48
91
Huh I ignored your PMs? I quit Dota 2 few weeks ago.
I added you on Steam before that. You just deleted and blocked me.

You said you'd give me that octopus helmet thing for Tide. You disappeared on me.

Some other stuff. You just come off as really elitist at times, and it's tiresome. Whatever though. Like, maybe it's just my perception. I'm not mad or anything.

I understand if you're busy, but personally, I'm good at handling multiple things in my head at a time, so I don't understand how others can miss/forget things. I'm weird/different though.

And honestly, I think if you work your arse off and surround yourself with players better than you, you can be a very good player, gifted or not. The problem I think is the pubs themselves. This is why I want a bloody team. I want to be the worst player on my team for a good while, and then to suddenly look back and realize I'm WAY better that I was before. I can't really do that playing pubs, since it's a team game, and your team drags you down (and you can't necessarily figure out where you went wrong if you did in those cases, since there's too many variables or whatnot... whereas if your whole team is playing almost flawlessly and you make mistakes and you lose, it was probably you).
 
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Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
I blocked you? Uhh?

I have tons of items that I'm still trying to get rid of, mentioned here again and again.

I can sign back on if you'd like tonight and give you whatever items you want. I still have 3~ immortals, and 5~ rares, and 20~ uncommons.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
A lot of that attitude (explaining Dota things over and over) is something players get jaded with after playing a lot of games. The amount of people who you try and be helpful to ("Please don't auto attack the lane creeps; wait for them to get low health and simply hit them the last time." is often greeted with a "F*ck you, don't tell me how to play!") are just so rude and don't listen, you get to the point where being extremely harsh right of the bat gets your point across quickly and has about the same chances of working.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
A lot of that attitude (explaining Dota things over and over) is something players get jaded with after playing a lot of games. The amount of people who you try and be helpful to ("Please don't auto attack the lane creeps; wait for them to get low health and simply hit them the last time." is often greeted with a "F*ck you, don't tell me how to play!") are just so rude and don't listen, you get to the point where being extremely harsh right of the bat gets your point across quickly and has about the same chances of working.

Jesus, nailed it.

I was particularly sick of pubs yelling 'MY WINRATE IS BETTER THAN YOU, SCRUB" once too many times, it damaged my brain.
 
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