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[BergeLSU]

Looks like we have different meaning for supports.
A ward bitch is just that, a ward bitch. Any hero can be a ward bitch, just some are better than others at the task.
A support is a healer/tanker/crowd controller/mobilizer/disabler.
A carry is the guy that deals the highest dps.

The terms carry/support are more for their ability to contribute with farm.

The best true supports can contribute greatly without any gold. It obviously scales, because some are in the middle.

Puck is a great example of a crowd controller/disabler, but is really weak when left at the #5 position. Necro falls in the same boat, but because of his single disable with a long CD, he doesn't fit in the professional meta. I would say he is a Tier 2 middle laner (after the main mids QoP, Puck, etc).

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Necro's abilities scale *completely* independently of what items he has. Compare that to a carry with a bash. That bash scales too, but it scales more if you have attack speed. I understand Necro isn't a 5 but he is still a support. I treat him like Death Prophet in that you need some farm to tank up and be a persistent presence, but he is nowhere near an outright carry that all these pubbies claim. You're only purpose is to stay alive as long as possible to spam death pulse and maximize hearstopper. That is as support role. I realize this is nearly impossible if you're playing ward bitch, but I think the pubbies that think he is a carry have no concept of what 1/2/3/4/5 is and Necro is probably a 3 in 85% of games.

 

[smackababy]

Necro can carry, if put in the main carry role. He has great early lane presence and if he gets a Radiance, pumps out a ton of AoE damage. His attack is not the best (which is a big reason he isn't picked up I believe), but he can easily carry a game if played in that role. One of his problems is he requires build up. Without it, he is worthless. He has one disable every like 70 seconds and a heal / nuke that isn't great either. But with a few items, he gets incredibly hard to kill and can put out some damage.

I would never suggest playing Necro in a support role because he offers absolutely nothing in that role. Even with Mek, he still does very little what a Demented Shaman's Dota equiv would do. Don't remember the name right off the bat, but I think it is Dazzle the Shadow Priest.

 

[Zeze]

Necro can carry, if put in the main carry role. He has great early lane presence and if he gets a Radiance, pumps out a ton of AoE damage. His attack is not the best (which is a big reason he isn't picked up I believe), but he can easily carry a game if played in that role. One of his problems is he requires build up. Without it, he is worthless. He has one disable every like 70 seconds and a heal / nuke that isn't great either. But with a few items, he gets incredibly hard to kill and can put out some damage.

I would never suggest playing Necro in a support role because he offers absolutely nothing in that role. Even with Mek, he still does very little what a Demented Shaman's Dota equiv would do. Don't remember the name right off the bat, but I think it is Dazzle the Shadow Priest.

Stopped reading when you said Radiance. Come on now.

 

[smackababy]

Stopped reading when you said Radiance. Come on now.

People don't get Radiance anymore? That should be a core item on certain heroes. Next you're gonna tell me Lone Druid doesn't get one for his bear.

 

[Dijeangenie]

Looks like we have different meaning for supports.
A ward bitch is just that, a ward bitch. Any hero can be a ward bitch, just some are better than others at the task.
A support is a healer/tanker/crowd controller/mobilizer/disabler.
A carry is the guy that deals the highest dps.

So you think, Puck, Enigma, Dark Seer, Pudge, Magnus, Brewmaster, Batrider, Beastmaster, Centaur etc etc are supports?

 

[p0rkguy]

So you think, Puck, Enigma, Dark Seer, Pudge, Magnus, Brewmaster, Batrider, Beastmaster, Centaur etc etc are supports?

Yes.

 

[BergeLSU]

Stopped reading when you said Radiance. Come on now.

Personally, it's my least favored item. I'm not sure I have ever really bought it.

Back to Dazzle, he is actually one of my favorite heroes. I rush a Medallion of Courage on him and win lanes. There was one game I was able to get a desolator, too. Enemies melted.

 

[Zeze]

People don't get Radiance anymore? That should be a core item on certain heroes. Next you're gonna tell me Lone Druid doesn't get one for his bear.

I wish I was kidding, but it's true and you nailed it on LD.

The game is much faster paced and teams want to dictate fights with cheap & powerful items. Radiance on LD is a thing of the past in pro games, and it naturally trickles down to high level pubs. I haven't seen radiance on bear in last 4-8 weeks. You just can't commit 20-25 mins of no items and farming. Too much risk.

They used to abuse Armlet on bear (doesn't lose hp), but it was fixed. Now they just get Mjollnir on bear. (Maelstrom, then finish AC, then back to Mjollnir)

That being said, LD himself is still a top pick on many games.

 

[smackababy]

LD is extremely good, I can see why he would be picked up. As a solo long laner, he is hard to beat. I wasn't aware competitive Dota had moved from the ricer meta yet. HoN was dominated by a team that rather than commit to a hard carry would run a super aggressive early and mid game and basically win before you could get farmed up. They also managed to outpick in 99% of their games. They ended up going like 54-0 in tournament play. Not dropping a single game and winning the 3 major tournaments that year. It wasn't until Dreamhack that they dropped a game, let alone a series.

Mjollnir is a good item on bear, but it is rather expensive.

 

[SockHaser]

I wish I was kidding, but it's true and you nailed it on LD.

The game is much faster paced and teams want to dictate fights with cheap & powerful items. Radiance on LD is a thing of the past in pro games, and it naturally trickles down to high level pubs. I haven't seen radiance on bear in last 4-8 weeks. You just can't commit 20-25 mins of no items and farming. Too much risk.

They used to abuse Armlet on bear (doesn't lose hp), but it was fixed. Now they just get Mjollnir on bear. (Maelstrom, then finish AC, then back to Mjollnir)

That being said, LD himself is still a top pick on many games.

DO they even finish the full Mjollnir anymore? I kinda think maelstrom, AC, basher is better and more common

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I see the roles as Carry, Support, Initiator, and Tank. Though as a concept, tank is kind of a failure in itself. You can't tank for the sake of tanking, you have to give people a reason to want to deal with you (ie Centaur high HP = double edge spam galore, but then he can initiate as well, so can many tanks).

 

[p0rkguy]

I see the roles as Carry, Support, Initiator, and Tank. Though as a concept, tank is kind of a failure in itself. You can't tank for the sake of tanking, you have to give people a reason to want to deal with you (ie Centaur high HP = double edge spam galore, but then he can initiate as well, so can many tanks).

That's why it's much easier to just throw them all into the support group. Every hero not carrying is basically supporting. Warding is supporting but any of the supports can buy wards. Yes, it's optimal to make the one who doesn't benefit much from farming to do the warding. Heroes that do well with levels and are not item dependent. ie. Jakiro, SD, WR, Visage, Lina, Lion, etc.
Healer, tanker, crowd controller, mobilizer, disabler are all subsets of Support.

 

[SockHaser]

That's why it's much easier to just throw them all into the support group. Every hero not carrying is basically supporting. Warding is supporting but any of the supports can buy wards. Yes, it's optimal to make the one who doesn't benefit much from farming to do the warding. Heroes that do well with levels and are not item dependent. ie. Jakiro, SD, WR, Visage, Lina, Lion, etc.
Healer, tanker, crowd controller, mobilizer, disabler are all subsets of Support.

You're looking at it too literally. Supports "support" the farmers by making space on the map for the farmers to farm. So while a Windrunner can be played as a support, she can also be played as a farming core hero being supported. You can't just lump every non hard carry together and call them a support hero.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Necro's abilities scale *completely* independently of what items he has. Compare that to a carry with a bash. That bash scales too, but it scales more if you have attack speed. I understand Necro isn't a 5 but he is still a support. I treat him like Death Prophet in that you need some farm to tank up and be a persistent presence, but he is nowhere near an outright carry that all these pubbies claim. You're only purpose is to stay alive as long as possible to spam death pulse and maximize hearstopper. That is as support role. I realize this is nearly impossible if you're playing ward bitch, but I think the pubbies that think he is a carry have no concept of what 1/2/3/4/5 is and Necro is probably a 3 in 85% of games.

No, necro's ability scales completely relative to his net worth, because his worth in teamfights is completely dependent on him staying alive as long as possible. He's nothing like a true support, because he has no disable, no quick-cast item/spell combo that summarises his teamfight ability. We've been through this before, as a pure support necro has almost no value because if he gets no farm, he just gets blown up. He needs items like Mek, Pipe etc. to improve his survivability because they complement his own natural tankiness and his ability to spam his abilities and keep his aura around throughout the entire fight.

That just sounds really low tier. The tier I'm talking about are players who managed to get through with similar item/skill builds as pros or playing with hard carries in 50min+ games.

Well, you did say beginners. I don't know what you mean by beginners, but to most people beginners are people who are, you know, just beginning.

People don't get Radiance anymore? That should be a core item on certain heroes. Next you're gonna tell me Lone Druid doesn't get one for his bear.

Nope. The thing with Radiance is that for 5-10 minutes you're completely worthless to your team, until you get your relic. As a necro, you're still worthless to your team because your teamfight ability doesn't depend on autoattacks. To get the AoE effect you need another 5 minutes maybe where you're still worthless to your team. Meanwhile the enemy are forcing teamfights because they know you haven't bought items for several minutes and they're killing your other teammates 5v4 and taking towers, and maybe ganking you heaps, delaying your 6200g item almost indefinitely.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I said his abilities, not his ability, as in his skills. You're missing my point. It's like you didn't even read the rest of my post.

 

[{bad}]

all this carry/support arguments made me remember fun build i used to try on es.

sb + mom + bf + daedalus

and i cud almost own every1

 

[Turbonium]

This thread got really lawl in recent posts (the jokes/comics/pics, etc.).

Anyway, I recently played and won a game vs. YaphetS.

Yea, I know it wasn't the real YaphetS, but I like to pretend it was for bragging rights.

 

[Destiny]

This thread got really lawl in recent posts (the jokes/comics/pics, etc.).

Anyway, I recently played and won a game vs. YaphetS.

Yea, I know it wasn't the real YaphetS, but I like to pretend it was for bragging rights.

I played against an LGD player and his friends once on the South East Asia server... they were praticing trying to layer their combos/ultimate on me and my friends - they ended up getting smashed because we were ganking non stop since the game started instead of letting them farm in their lanes. Once we figured out whom their initator was we had our Spirit Breaker focus on him while we focused on the Carry and second support...

 

[{bad}]

This thread got really lawl in recent posts (the jokes/comics/pics, etc.).

Anyway, I recently played and won a game vs. YaphetS.

Yea, I know it wasn't the real YaphetS, but I like to pretend it was for bragging rights.

this made me remember another thing :twisted:
i posted this on some other forum months go

it will some time to copy :biggrin:

 

[{bad}]

This was me explaining it to newbies back then

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

idk if most of you know this or not.. but you can check whats your/others skill level on dota 2.
matchmaking finds you games according to this

here's how you can check it

go to WATCH tab -> recent games -> put player name(name should be exactly same as IGN used in dota 2, its not steam id)
select date etc, select skill level = very high
click on apply.
if it shows no results that means dota 2 matchmaking never searches games for you in this category

follow same steps and select skill level = high this time
if no result again; you know what to do

if you are in very high skill pool you will get really good ppl

if you lucky you will get to play with professional player(who are playing pub).

i play only on SEA server now so i get to play with players of china and sg

and yeah he is real iG.YYF

​

 

[Zeze]

Well done.

I would like to add few things. It's been established on dev.dota2.com that skill distribution is roughly as follows:

88,499 – Normal (80.5%)
17,702 – High (16.1%)
3,652 – Very High (3.3%)
109,853 – Total

Source

Now the sample size has exploded since then. But you the bracket distribution should remain relatively same.

This does NOT mean your MM is only split into 3 levels. This is just a way to sort by the percentage. Your MM is on a forever linear scale, matched by the hidden rating.

<-- got matched with SingSing, KoReYa, & Kuroky last month... and even Luminous. (I was busy swooning)

 

[Zeze]

Here is 230 Dota 2 comics. They're quite lulzy. Man these people draw so well.

Aaaaand my all time fav:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nW2VjiGN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=Qgl0Ozp3RrU

 

[Turbonium]

LOL at that last one.

What does MM stand for? I have no idea what my skill is rated as, but my win-loss ratio is pretty much 1:1 (with the vast majority of my games played without anyone I know).

Honestly, I'd put myself in the "High" category, but something tells me Dota 2 thinks I'm "Normal", given the teammates it gives me.

What should I do? Only play with people on my team that I know can play well to get my "MM" up or whatever?

FYI I currently have 121 wins, and about 119 losses. And I know I've said this before, but a lot of those losses are due to people on my team who literally are clueless, or who don't speak English (seriously, what is with all the South Americans on the US servers?). Yea, I'm not an amazing player, but I know how to make plays (I have my pro moments), and I know when I make mistakes most of the time and own up to them, which means I'm not totally clueless.

EDIT: Just saw the post above. I'll try it later today.

 

[Zeze]

LOL at that last one.

What does MM stand for?

Matchmaking. That 'Find Match' button you press.