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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
Blocked at work :|

The main reasons I bought it:
* Battle point boost every time I play a game that automatically applies to everybody else; lasts until the finals.
* The ability to watch all of the games; I actually sat through about 30 of them so far, just to see how the high end players play the game, in order to try and learn more about the game.
* Free courier - cosmetic and I don't use it much, but it gets upgraded depending on how many games you watch.

I haven't actually watched any of the preliminaries live, I've just downloaded and watched them that way. I really enjoy the observing features of DOTA2; they seem to be far better than almost any other game I've played. When you replay a game, you can check all kinds of stats, listen to different announcers, etc..
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
Hmm, I'm trying to determine if this will enhance the DOTA2 experience or if it's just a gimmick.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
Hmm, I'm trying to determine if this will enhance the DOTA2 experience or if it's just a gimmick.

Will it enhance the experience? That depends on whether or not you get entertainment out of watching tournaments or not, is what it boils down to. I like watching the tournaments and was watching them streamed before I even started playing the beta.

For me it added many hours of entertainment. When I used to play WoW I had no issues blowing $15 a month on a subscription. Watching the tournament matches I've already gotten 20 hours+ of entertainment, so to me it was worth it. I also like the extra crap you get with it, for example the courier, the extra HUD skin, etc..
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
General question- and I know this won't have an exact answer..

But what are the key(s) to playing a character like shadow fiend well when a noob player like me doesn't see any super awesome qualities about him? Somebody like Riki it's obvious for a low level pub b/c you are invis. I feel like I saw talk on her earlier that SF was a pretty good hero and chosen a lot for pro games. I liked playing him last night, but I didn't do very well over all. I am much better with Sniper, Riki, SK or other "noob" heroes.
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
It's better to experience these heroes against bots, then you the hidden abilities that you don't see off the bat will come through. Also, as Juddog mentioned up top, you can also watch pro's play certain heroes to see what they are fully capable of.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
General question- and I know this won't have an exact answer..

But what are the key(s) to playing a character like shadow fiend well when a noob player like me doesn't see any super awesome qualities about him? Somebody like Riki it's obvious for a low level pub b/c you are invis. I feel like I saw talk on her earlier that SF was a pretty good hero and chosen a lot for pro games. I liked playing him last night, but I didn't do very well over all. I am much better with Sniper, Riki, SK or other "noob" heroes.

SF specializes in one thing - damage. If you are good at dishing out damage, last hitting, etc. then you can grow him quickly to become a heavy hitter. He has no escape or disable though, so you have to do all that through items. If you're not good at last hitting / denying then you should work on that first before picking SF.

With glass cannons like SF, I usually like to snatch up a shadowblade for escaping and rush BKB after getting treads / wand. SF has multiple ranged nukes, so he's great for nuking people behind the line of creeps, plus if you're laning you can do a far nuke then a close nuke in rapid succession and pop off a lot of damage to the creep line (killing them all if they are low enough in health, for a nice chunk of money).

Because his basic skill gives him a huge damage bonus early on, you can quickly gain the advantage in last hitting / denying for lane dominance, plus his harass range is great. His ult is nice if you have a blink dagger and pop in after triggering BKB and setting it off right in the middle of a big teamfight for massive damage.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
General question- and I know this won't have an exact answer..

But what are the key(s) to playing a character like shadow fiend well when a noob player like me doesn't see any super awesome qualities about him? Somebody like Riki it's obvious for a low level pub b/c you are invis. I feel like I saw talk on her earlier that SF was a pretty good hero and chosen a lot for pro games. I liked playing him last night, but I didn't do very well over all. I am much better with Sniper, Riki, SK or other "noob" heroes.

He's a disgusting glass cannon. If you look at Dota, most carries are melee. Being ranged in Dota is immensely powerful. SF is the only ranged hero that can snowball and crush the enemy from 15+ mins. No one can do this (Drow is bad, and Medusa requires stupid farm).

- He is similar to Gyro. He can carry late but he's ridiculously potent with early to mid game nukes. The 3x razes deal 900 damage to EVERYONE. Yes, it's hard to land all 3, but it isn't all that uncommon either in hands of good players. Most of the time, you land 2 razes, that's 600 AOE damage to all. Very very scary. Also the CD is low (10), so you can theoretically dish out 1800 AOE damage at level 9 or so.

- With this he goes around and gank like a mofo. He is a hard hero to master as Razes are like... 'double' skill-shots (you attack a fixed direction AND face your hero the right way).

- The raze allows him to flash-farm and clear waves at will under 1.5 seconds. No one can do this at level 5 to 7. Not Qop, not anyone. This gives him excellent rune control (push lanes, and go for rune. Enemy has to contest the rune and lose EXP/farm or stay and defend tower).

- Necromastery is another his signature skill. Each last hit gives him +2 damage. If you know SF, no other hero can outplay harder than SF. You'll fly into stratosphere. At max level, you'll have 36 souls giving you +72 damage. That's more than buying a Sacred Relic +60 (3800g) at level 8. You'll be running around with 150-180 auto attack at 12-15 minutes. Insane.. that damage on a ranged hero. Combine that with the 900 nuke Raze.

- His Aura is just a cherry on top. -6 armor, lol. After his cores of BKB & SB/Dagger, try Desolator. That's -13 armor on 500 range + Necromastery = gg. Only TA could dream of this power at such range.

- His ultimate is another skill shot. It's like doing a perfect golf swing. Feels AMAZING when you pull a triple kill++.

All in all, he's a high-skill, high reward hero that's extremely rewarding for people who understand little nuances of dota. He's kind of like Puck in terms of skill requirement. No one can run around and both dominate a lane AND gank AND carry at 12 mins like SF can. Not Drow or Medusa. Not even the top-shelf Gyro.
 
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z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
^^ Interesting. At certain times when the other team ganked me and my lane mate (3v2) I pulled off 3 razes then the ulti and got a double kill while the other guy somehow managed to kill the other dude I didn't get.

My other game with SF our whole team got raped and I went like 3-6 or something awful. I am def going to keep trying him because I did enjoy the 500 range attack on people like lifestealer and Ursa.

Any other heroes other than SF, Gyro I could try out? Invoker looks interesting. Also seems like high skill is needed.
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
SF specializes in one thing - damage. If you are good at dishing out damage, last hitting, etc. then you can grow him quickly to become a heavy hitter. He has no escape or disable though, so you have to do all that through items. If you're not good at last hitting / denying then you should work on that first before picking SF.

With glass cannons like SF, I usually like to snatch up a shadowblade for escaping and rush BKB after getting treads / wand. SF has multiple ranged nukes, so he's great for nuking people behind the line of creeps, plus if you're laning you can do a far nuke then a close nuke in rapid succession and pop off a lot of damage to the creep line (killing them all if they are low enough in health, for a nice chunk of money).

Because his basic skill gives him a huge damage bonus early on, you can quickly gain the advantage in last hitting / denying for lane dominance, plus his harass range is great. His ult is nice if you have a blink dagger and pop in after triggering BKB and setting it off right in the middle of a big teamfight for massive damage.

Does activating BKB during the CAST (not the channeling) of SF's ult cancel it or it's affects? If I channeled then shift + BKB then blink, I might miss setting off the ult where I want.
 

BergeLSU

Senior member
Apr 6, 2011
475
0
76
Does activating BKB during the CAST (not the channeling) of SF's ult cancel it or it's affects? If I channeled then shift + BKB then blink, I might miss setting off the ult where I want.

It's actually not a channel. SF's ult has a long cast animation.

For example, if you use Sand King's ultimate, and stop it while it is "Channeling," you will lose your mana, and it will go on cooldown.

You can stop SF's cast without penalty. It is also why Shadow Blade can be strong on him on pubs, because you can invis into a group and cast your ultimate. You won't become visible until the spell is actually cast (and destroying the other team).
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
Does activating BKB during the CAST (not the channeling) of SF's ult cancel it or it's affects? If I channeled then shift + BKB then blink, I might miss setting off the ult where I want.

Huh? I'm not following you.

Casting BKB would cancel SF's self-hug animation. Just activate BKB then immediately ult.
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
^^ Interesting. At certain times when the other team ganked me and my lane mate (3v2) I pulled off 3 razes then the ulti and got a double kill while the other guy somehow managed to kill the other dude I didn't get.

My other game with SF our whole team got raped and I went like 3-6 or something awful. I am def going to keep trying him because I did enjoy the 500 range attack on people like lifestealer and Ursa.

Any other heroes other than SF, Gyro I could try out? Invoker looks interesting. Also seems like high skill is needed.
I really like Tinker and Earthshaker, they're quite fun to play. I always seem to get raped in laning with Earthshaker, my team starts calling me a noob and how I'm secretly on the other team, then when teamfights start...

General question- and I know this won't have an exact answer..

But what are the key(s) to playing a character like shadow fiend well when a noob player like me doesn't see any super awesome qualities about him? Somebody like Riki it's obvious for a low level pub b/c you are invis. I feel like I saw talk on her earlier that SF was a pretty good hero and chosen a lot for pro games. I liked playing him last night, but I didn't do very well over all. I am much better with Sniper, Riki, SK or other "noob" heroes.

I'm not sure about often. I've seen him picked once or twice and some pros seem to do especially well with SF. I wouldn't say it's a conventional pick though.

The thing with Shadow Fiend in pubs is that it relies on being very good at last hits. From what I remember SF's base damage is 39 or something, one of the lowest in the game. Invoker has Exort, Sniper has an awesome attack animation, and Clinkz has an orb that adds 20 damage at level 1. Whereas SF is just this hero with an average attack animation that does about as much damage as a wet paper bag. And it only gets harder when someone with a high base damage competes with you for last hits.

Once he gets going though, he's pretty good. You get a Shadow Blade and BKB, and just keep stacking damage items, and in end-game you just ult in the middle of a teamfight and start to two-shot everybody.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
Does activating BKB during the CAST (not the channeling) of SF's ult cancel it or it's affects? If I channeled then shift + BKB then blink, I might miss setting off the ult where I want.

SF's ult isn't a channeled effect. It takes a second to cast though, maybe that's what you are thinking of? You can't cast anything while it's casting otherwise you're going to break the effect.

What you want to do is this:
* Teamfight starts, someone initiates, etc.
* You pop your BKB before using blink dagger to jump in the fray - otherwise you're going to get chain stunned to oblivion - you want to have the BKB effect going so that you can cast your ult uninterrupted, and you want to wait to cast it until the initiation phase is complete.
* Pop ult, make sure it goes off, takes one second to cast.
* If you're lucky, you can step the 2nd step if you run in invis and pop ult.
 
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Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
^^ Interesting. At certain times when the other team ganked me and my lane mate (3v2) I pulled off 3 razes then the ulti and got a double kill while the other guy somehow managed to kill the other dude I didn't get.

My other game with SF our whole team got raped and I went like 3-6 or something awful. I am def going to keep trying him because I did enjoy the 500 range attack on people like lifestealer and Ursa.

Any other heroes other than SF, Gyro I could try out? Invoker looks interesting. Also seems like high skill is needed.

Invoker is more of an advanced hero. Practice Invoker for 10-15 games against bots so that you can memorize the spells before you take it to regular matches.

If you want easy pubstomp heroes, check out this page, it breaks it down in a fairly straightforward way:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402215
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
SF's ult isn't a channeled effect. It takes a second to cast though, maybe that's what you are thinking of? You can't cast anything while it's casting otherwise you're going to break the effect.

What you want to do is this:
* Teamfight starts, someone initiates, etc.
* You pop your BKB before using blink dagger to jump in the fray - otherwise you're going to get chain stunned to oblivion - you want to have the BKB effect going so that you can cast your ult uninterrupted, and you want to wait to cast it until the initiation phase is complete.
* Pop ult, make sure it goes off, takes one second to cast.
* If you're lucky, you can step the 2nd step if you run in invis and pop ult.

ahh ok see I thought it was like SK's ult. I think I kind of like the idea of shadow blade invis, walk in there... Do my ult and let things get crayyyyyy
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
ahh ok see I thought it was like SK's ult. I think I kind of like the idea of shadow blade invis, walk in there... Do my ult and let things get crayyyyyy

That is a good strat because his ult slows (which is amazing for landing his nukes plus your auto attacks). But yes, if you do not win your solo lane (because if you aren't solo you're going to be worthless) you will be worthless. You really need to go mid, dominate (which isn't hard with him due to his increasing damage + a bottle lets you nuke) and then you can snowball.
 

Dijeangenie

Senior member
Sep 11, 2012
269
0
71
ahh ok see I thought it was like SK's ult. I think I kind of like the idea of shadow blade invis, walk in there... Do my ult and let things get crayyyyyy

BTW (and because someone got confused earlier), shadow blade will not break until the ultimate goes off. However an invis rune will wear off at the start of the animation, explaining the dota cinema clip (mentioned earlier). Shadow blade will also allow you to phase through someone, meaning they can potentially take all the damage.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
Found this in reddit. Great for beginners, although it's still missing few vital points.



1. The dire's safe lane pull can be warded BEHIND the camp. It's more discreet.

2. You can also block the secondary pull lane the left of it by placing the ward where the path 'Y's. This also entirely denies any ganks coming from that area.

3. Radiant's safe pull also has a better ward spot BEHIND to the left of it. There's a little plant marker. This blocks TWO camps- the pull and the one facing river.

4. You can also ward behind to the RIGHT of it. It's very hard to deward this as you have to chop trees.

5. You can also ward the long lanes where the river meets. It gives total vision against the poor offlaner's every movement. It allows you know when to gank.

6. It's also vital to ward right behind top and bottom T1 tiers when pushing. This gives complete transparency for anyone who's creeping around to gank and reveals all suspicious TPs.

7. And you got your pre-raxing wards on the sides (tremendous help) and post-towering wards right between the ranged & melee rax. They're amazing to light up the whole area, especially sentry for invis kids.
 
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Peter Nixeus

Senior member
Aug 27, 2012
365
1
81
www.nixeus.com
Found this in reddit. Great for beginners, although it's still missing few vital points.



1. The dire's safe lane pull can be warded BEHIND the camp. It's more discreet.

2. You can also block the secondary pull lane the left of it by placing the ward where the path 'Y's. This also entirely denies any ganks coming from that area.

3. Radiant's safe pull also has a better ward spot BEHIND to the left of it. There's a little plant marker. This blocks TWO camps- the pull and the one facing river.

4. You can also ward behind to the RIGHT of it. It's very hard to deward this as you have to chop trees.

5. You can also ward the long lanes where the river meets. It gives total vision against the poor offlaner's every movement. It allows you know when to gank.

6. It's also vital to ward right behind top and bottom T1 tiers when pushing. This gives complete transparency for anyone who's creeping around to gank and reveals all suspicious TPs.

7. And you got your pre-raxing wards on the sides (tremendous help) and post-towering wards right between the ranged & melee rax. They're amazing to light up the whole area, especially sentry for invis kids.

Of course, the pros know all this and know where to place sentry wards to de-ward before ganking... so you may have to find less obvious places for observer wards.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
Of course, the pros know all this and know where to place sentry wards to de-ward before ganking... so you may have to find less obvious places for observer wards.

Well, de-warding isn't prevented because they're hard to find. The 'obvious' spots hold too much strategic value and provide great info to not use them.

You can't place them in some off-beaten path because they won't get found. And slightly off from good places will still get caught by sentry's 800 range.. or the ward doesn't work.

It's more like.. who can brute-force ward and deward better with gold. When people play lots of games, you just develop where enemies have wards by sense.

 
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Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
I was talking to a Dota 1 friend, who told me about the Magic Bush, does that still work in the Radiant jungle?
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,039
0
76
There's a spot near the bottom Medium camp where if you put a ward there if block off both Medium and one of the Hard camps.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,210
1,080
126
There's a spot near the bottom Medium camp where if you put a ward there if block off both Medium and one of the Hard camps.

Yes sir. As mentioned:

3. Radiant's safe pull also has a better ward spot BEHIND to the left of it. There's a little plant marker. This blocks TWO camps- the pull and the one facing river.
 
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