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[Chiropteran]

Not going to waste the forum space to quote and respond to all your BS, but these are the two most obvious lies.

5. I bet you my savings that this crazy guy is going to incorrectly psycho-accuse me for saying SB is bad again, watch.

This is what I said:
Zeze exploded in rage and claimed he was a bad hero and never even saw play until his "recent" buffs

This is what YOU said:
SB was a trash tier up until his recent buffs

In what way to I incorrectly accuse you? I didn't. You simply have to be right all the time, so you make up lies.

7. This crazy guy argues 1v1 SF scenario where RoH on SF would beat a regular SF. Tons of crafted replies are thrown at him over 3 weeks. He doesn't get it and says he knows better. Later he reveals he doesn't play 1v1... OR never touched SF. Wow, psycho all along.

I hope you realize "this crazy guy" you are talking about is yourself. You are the fool who keeps begging me to 1v1, and then you turn to insults when I don't take your bait.

Yeah, I don't usually play SF. I got him in all random a couple times, I might have played him 3 games total in my life. I never claimed otherwise, yet you lie and act like I said things I didn't say. You even asked for other forum readers to go back and pull out quotes to prove your point... funny enough nobody did that. Why can't you do your own work? I know why, because I never said that crap to begin with. If my posts seem crazy to you, maybe you should quit spreading lies.

I'm not going to sit back and let you lie and claim I said things I never said.

If you don't want the thread "trashed" with my responses, the solution is simple: quit lying about me.

 

[Zeze]

Hahahah how about that Nyx & Dotabuff? And misreading your OWN gosugamer article? Shut you right up! LOL.

Played SF 3 times, yet argues against people who's played him for years otherwise.

Keep dodging & trolling.

 

[smackababy]

Does SB function like Rampage in HoN? I can't think of him right off the bat. Can someone list his skills please? I can't really search for stuff at work. =(

 

[CWRMadcat]

Does SB function like Rampage in HoN? I can't think of him right off the bat. Can someone list his skills please? I can't really search for stuff at work. =(

Charge of Darkness

Spirit Breaker fixes his sight on an enemy unit and starts charging through all objects. All enemy units passed through and the targeted unit will be hit by a Greater Bash. If the targeted unit dies, Spirit Breaker will change his target to the nearest enemy unit to that location.
Charge Speed: 600/650/700/750
Stuns on Contact: 1.2/1.6/2/2.4
Range: Global


Empowering Haste

The Spirit Breaker's presence increases the movement speed of nearby allied units.
Increased Allied Movement Speed: 6%/10%/14%/18%
Movement Speed Aura Radius: 900


Greater Bash

Gives a chance to stun and knockback an enemy unit on an attack, as well as gaining bonus movement speed after a bash occurs. Deals damage based on movement speed.

Chance to Trigger on Attack: 17%
Damage: 10/20/30/40% of movement speed
Knockback Duration: 0.5
Stun Duration: 1/1.2/1.4/1.6
Increased Movement Speed: 15%
Increased Movement Speed Duration: 3


Nether Strike


Spirit Breaker slips into the nether realm, reappearing next to his hapless victim. Upon reappearing, a Greater Bash of the current level occurs and deals bonus damage.

Damage: 150/250/350
Range: 400/550/700 (550/700/850*)
Cooldown 75 (20*) Mana 125/150/175

*Refers to scepter values.

 

[Zeze]

Does SB function like Rampage in HoN? I can't think of him right off the bat. Can someone list his skills please? I can't really search for stuff at work. =(

He was recently (yup recently) remade with huge buffs. If HoN's counterpart stayed same, then Rampage is considerably weaker today compared to todays' SB.

His new Bash is very strong, and his new Charge applying Bash is very strong too.

 

[smackababy]

He was recently (yup recently) remade with huge buffs. If HoN's counterpart stayed same, then Rampage is considerably weaker today compared to todays' SB.

His new Bash is very strong, and his new Charge applying Bash is very strong too.

I don't know of Rampage has changed any, because nobody plays him (he is only a good pub smash hero and that is only because pubs have the map awareness of a mongoloid). He was always considered weak. The skills listed about look much better than the base I am used to.

 

[Zeze]

I don't know of Rampage has changed any, because nobody plays him (he is only a good pub smash hero and that is only because pubs have the map awareness of a mongoloid). He was always considered weak. The skills listed about look much better than the base I am used to.

Yea, they remade the speed & damage from speed aura into just speed aura now.

And gave a sick damage boost to the Bash based on the current MS. And just so happens, whenever he Bashes, he gains MS. This both-way boost gives him incredible damage early/mid game. He eats up supports.

I'd love to see him finally get incorporated into pro games. Maybe hidden strat for TI3 finals? I still remember when iG picked Luna in TI2. This was unheard of back then and everyone and the casters thought they were trolling. Oh how wrong were they when Luna was abusing cheap items (Wand, Drums, Aquila, Tranquil) and running around with 430 ms at 8 mins and owned everyone.

I want such surprise to happen in TI3. Only 2 weeks away!

 

[smackababy]

His ganking ability really doesn't sound very good in pro games, because they actually use lane wards and communicate when someone is missing. Does his charge grant magic immunity? Rampage's does, which makes it even more satisfying to hook or ulti him with Devo (Pudge) because they are physical.

 

[z1ggy]

Zeze-

I saw on that july 2013 pro tier list of Heroes being used often that get bans, NP was on there. I thought he was pretty fun, but I didn't do terribly good over all. Any secrets to making him pro level? (besides obviously being a very good player to begin w haha )

 

[CWRMadcat]

His ganking ability really doesn't sound very good in pro games, because they actually use lane wards and communicate when someone is missing. Does his charge grant magic immunity? Rampage's does, which makes it even more satisfying to hook or ulti him with Devo (Pudge) because they are physical.

No. Charge does not grant magic immunity, and that's kind of the reason I suspect SB isn't really going to be featured heavily, if at all in top games. The fact that you can get your charge interrupted really means you're only good in isolation or against a hero with no disables. At best you're the followup stunner after the initial stuns go off. Your only recourse is to buy a BKB, but the jury is out on whether or not it's worth it to give SB that kind of farm.

 

[Chiropteran]

Hahahah how about that Nyx & Dotabuff? And misreading your OWN gosugamer article? Shut you right up! LOL.

Played SF 3 times, yet argues against people who's played him for years otherwise.

Keep dodging & trolling.

You realize I completely refuted two of your central points. So what if I didn't respond to the rest of your post? You never logically refute anything I post with facts, you just continually use the Appeal to Authority fallacy by claiming I am dumb and bad because i'm supposedly lower elo than you. Why should I bother with a point by point response? I know you will just ignore things you don't like, lie to cover up your failures, and use another appeal to authority argument. I don't think I have ever seen any clear evidence of your skill, just your self-referential claims over and over.

You accuse me of dodging, throw in some extra insults for good measure... and you avoid addressing the fact that I proved you wrong, clearly without doubt, in both points.

Accuse me of dodging, while dodging my response.

I think your posts speak strongly about what sort of character you are. Even if you may be right about a few things, you can never admit when you are wrong, and even spread outright lies about someone you disagree, and even go so far as to forum-stalk me into other sections of the forums because of your deep hatred that someone would actually question your advice.

 

[Chiropteran]

The fact that you can get your charge interrupted really means you're only good in isolation or against a hero with no disables.

Just curious, do you agree with Zeze that Nyx is OP, and Spirit Breaker is "not strong" and/or easily countered?

edit: removed usage of "bad"

 

[smackababy]

You realize I completely refuted two of your central points. So what if I didn't respond to the rest of your post? You never logically refute anything I post with facts, you just continually use the Appeal to Authority fallacy by claiming I am dumb and bad because i'm supposedly lower elo than you. Why should I bother with a point by point response? I know you will just ignore things you don't like, lie to cover up your failures, and use another appeal to authority argument. I don't think I have ever seen any clear evidence of your skill, just your self-referential claims over and over.

You accuse me of dodging, throw in some extra insults for good measure... and you avoid addressing the fact that I proved you wrong, clearly without doubt, in both points.

Accuse me of dodging, while dodging my response.

I think your posts speak strongly about what sort of character you are. Even if you may be right about a few things, you can never admit when you are wrong, and even spread outright lies about someone you disagree, and even go so far as to forum-stalk me into other sections of the forums because of your deep hatred that someone would actually question your advice.

He has already addressed your previous "arguments" with facts, math, and a ton of support from everyone else. Frankly, a feel a lot of people, including myself, are tired of your hostile and ignorant attitude about certain aspects of the game you cannot grasp. Go back and check the posts about RoH. It was explained repeatedly and even numbers were provided.

You are dodging reading the posts with information you don't like. Nxy is very strong, regardless of whatever you try to claim. SB used to be awful and now seems to be a bit stronger, but still probably won't be picked up much. I, personally, wouldn't let Nxy lane and a SB go mid. SB would be far better off roaming (charging from say bottom to top) and letting Nyx get the mid farm to build early Dagon. That would be an amazing pub stomp team. SB charge > Nyx ulti hit > stun > mana burn > Dagon would take out most heroes.

 

[Zeze]

Zeze-

I saw on that july 2013 pro tier list of Heroes being used often that get bans, NP was on there. I thought he was pretty fun, but I didn't do terribly good over all. Any secrets to making him pro level? (besides obviously being a very good player to begin w haha )

Sure thing.

NP is good because he can push/gank/carry/jungle (free up a lane)- all in one game. In pubs, NP usually just afk farms forever. But in pro games NP is always watching the map and TPs in.

1. He can turn any 1v1 or 2v2 ganks into 2v1/3v2. Or he can stop ganks into an even playing field. All within 3 seconds of notice- anywhere on map. If you watch the pro games, you'll see NP frequently TPing from level 2 to 5.

2. He's a split push monster. You never feel right pushing against NP team. If you are stalled or waiting for the creep wave, NP is quick to TP to opposing lane and take your tower or rax in a blink of an eye. And what do you know, he's back in their base to defend just in time. So yea, his TP is the bread & butter of him. At max level it's 20 sec CD- quite lulzy. At emergencies, he can even buy a TP scroll, TP in, and TP out in 6 seconds flat (killing courier, finishing that risky kill, etc).

3. Generally speaking, you spend 2 points on Treant first to jungle effectively. By level 4, you should be 2-1-1. Then you max TP. By level 8, you should be 2-4-1-1.

4. As for items, what used to be a strictly pubtrash item, Shadow Blade is core on him, even pros do it. It allows him to be VERY annoying. Then you get Hex. There are also amazing early-impact items like Medallion (TP in, -6 armor on all your team's damage) & Mek. I'm also a BIG fan of Necrobook on NP. TP in + Treants + Necrobook 3 + Ult = Pushcentral. Scepter is a big no-no. Adds nothing new.

5. After hex, he can go carry with Desolator/MKB and/or Daedalus. He gets really scary here.

NP is a great way to learn map awareness. You can keep your eyes peeled on mid. When enemy courier comes and goes, you can TP in near their fountain or between T2 & T3 tower to snipe it. 875g for your team. You can even ask your mid to ping when he sees it.

Also practice the TP timing. It takes 3 seconds, so aim ahead 600-800 range of enemy's future path. Also there's no penalty to canceling it. You can spam cancel and recast many times.

Good luck. Let me know if you have questions.

 

[Chiropteran]

Since I am "too low elo" apparently, I am looking at CWRMadcat, as he said himself he was in the 90% percentile. He posted this earlier in the thread so I hope he has no problem with me re-linking it.

http://dotabuff.com/players/43777115/matches

As far as personally choosing the heros, he has won 75% of the time as spirit breaker, and 0% of the time as Nyx Assassin.

Out of his last 20 games...

http://dotabuff.com/matches/251395713

Nyx on his team, he LOST.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/237613536

Nyx on his team, he WON.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/249326243
http://dotabuff.com/matches/237419571

Spirit Breaker on his team, he WON. Also note that in both games Spirit Breaker is the highest level in the game, and probably carried, HARD. But Zeze says this can't happen in higher elo!

http://dotabuff.com/matches/237388665

Spirit Breaker on enemy team, he LOST.

So in the last 20 games, the team with Spirit Breaker has won 3/3. The team with Nyx has won 1/2. A small sample, but I find the results interesting.

 

[smackababy]

NP's HoN "equiv" (very similar but lacks the TP, instead has a targetable buff that grants armor and will invis you, his ult also immobilizes all heroes surrounding him and stops channeling, which is great against Enigma clone Tempest) is banned or picked almost every game due to his ability to split push and gank.

 

[Chiropteran]

He has already addressed your previous "arguments" with facts, math, and a ton of support from everyone else. Frankly, a feel a lot of people, including myself, are tired of your hostile and ignorant attitude about certain aspects of the game you cannot grasp. Go back and check the posts about RoH. It was explained repeatedly and even numbers were provided.

I feel like this is a canned response made without even reading my post. The points I refuted were his lies about what *he* said.

This is what I said:

Zeze exploded in rage and claimed he was a bad hero and never even saw play until his "recent" buffs

This is what Zeze said:

SB was a trash tier up until his recent buffs

This is what madness I was responding to:

I bet you my savings that this crazy guy is going to incorrectly psycho-accuse me for saying SB is bad again, watch. He's a solid hero since the buff. I've been saying this from day 0.

The only thing I accused him of saying was EXACTLY what he actually said, which is that Spirit Breaker was bad prior to recent buffs. Unless you think trash tier doesn't mean bad, I don't see how you can disagree with what I am saying.

I don't even know why you are bringing up the RoH. We haven't argued a word about it since last week. This current discussion is *not* related to it in any way whatsoever.

You are dodging reading the posts with information you don't like.

You don't get it. When a madmad starts shouting lies, I'm going to be focused on the lies. Maybe something Zeze said *was* actually true, but his irrational anger towards me has drowned out anything useful. I can't have a ration discussion with someone who is constantly misrepresenting my words.

 

[Zeze]

I think I broke him. Look at him go!

You're just spiteful now. It's not even about Dota anymore. This is awful.

 

[smackababy]

I feel like this is a canned response made without even reading my post. The points I refuted were his lies about what *he* said.

This is what I said:


This is what Zeze said:


This is what madness I was responding to:


The only thing I accused him of saying was EXACTLY what he actually said, which is that Spirit Breaker was bad prior to recent buffs. Unless you think trash tier doesn't mean bad, I don't see how you can disagree with what I am saying.

I don't even know why you are bringing up the RoH. We haven't argued a word about it since last week. This current discussion is *not* related to it in any way whatsoever.



You don't get it. When a madmad starts shouting lies, I'm going to be focused on the lies. Maybe something Zeze said *was* actually true, but his irrational anger towards me has drowned out anything useful. I can't have a ration discussion with someone who is constantly misrepresenting my words.

What lies? SB was trash tier from what I can gather before his recent buffs. He was trash in HoN and I believe he was trash in Dota as well (but it has been awhile since I played a lot of Dota).

Every post you bring up up something about Zeze, even if you're not responding, and try and taunt with some kind of personal attack because he proved, with mathematics!, that you are in the trash tier of Dota players. Yet, you continue to offer opinions on things you don't understand. I don't go around giving legal advice for importing / exporting fruit because I've been out of the country a few times. You giving your opinions and arguing for them, is the same thing. You've played a few bottom of the barrel Dota games and now, since you did well, think you have some valid opinion on the validity of items and builds. Yet you don't understand the very basics of items and builds to even be making these arguments.

 

[KeithTalent]

Thread is locked while I figure out what to do with you two.

Anandtech Moderator
KeithTalent

 

[KeithTalent]

This thread is now unlocked.

As previously mentioned, please keep the discussion on-topic and refrain from personal attacks. This thread will continue to be monitored closely and infractions will be given as needed.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Anandtech Moderator
KeithTalent

 

[surfsatwerk]

FWIW I'm glad this thread is back open, been doing some heavy lurking and would be disappointed to see it locked permanently.

 

[z1ggy]

FWIW I'm glad this thread is back open, been doing some heavy lurking and would be disappointed to see it locked permanently.

Same.

So to go back on topic... I feel like in the July '13 list of top heroes/ban picks I saw bat rider in there. I gave him a whirl last night in 2 games. He was fun, but over all I felt like in general, he sucked. Low over all base damage, not overly fast, not agile, and his fire shit spell doesn't do a ton of damage. Over all I felt like the most damage I could do to anybody was around 500-600.

This is what I did:

Shoot oil on them
lasso them- 4 seconds
shit fire on them for 4 seconds (max 320 damage + I think 80 ? more from the oil)
oil them again
toss the bomb thing on them
regular attack


I could only do this to squishy heroes because I'd be dead before I even got the bomb off on them.

He seemed like a very good farmer because of the oil, and his mana was always full, but he seemed either just kind of crappy, or needing an advanced level player to make any good use of him.

 

[Peter Nixeus]

Same.

So to go back on topic... I feel like in the July '13 list of top heroes/ban picks I saw bat rider in there. I gave him a whirl last night in 2 games. He was fun, but over all I felt like in general, he sucked. Low over all base damage, not overly fast, not agile, and his fire shit spell doesn't do a ton of damage. Over all I felt like the most damage I could do to anybody was around 500-600.

This is what I did:

Shoot oil on them
lasso them- 4 seconds
shit fire on them for 4 seconds (max 320 damage + I think 80 ? more from the oil)
oil them again
toss the bomb thing on them
regular attack


I could only do this to squishy heroes because I'd be dead before I even got the bomb off on them.

He seemed like a very good farmer because of the oil, and his mana was always full, but he seemed either just kind of crappy, or needing an advanced level player to make any good use of him.

I think batrider is more of a team fight initator type hero - I always die if I try to solo gank with him... basically you suppose to blink in, lasso someone, drag them to your team mates to kill him...

 

[Dijeangenie]

Same.

So to go back on topic... I feel like in the July '13 list of top heroes/ban picks I saw bat rider in there. I gave him a whirl last night in 2 games. He was fun, but over all I felt like in general, he sucked. Low over all base damage, not overly fast, not agile, and his fire shit spell doesn't do a ton of damage. Over all I felt like the most damage I could do to anybody was around 500-600.

This is what I did:

Shoot oil on them
lasso them- 4 seconds
shit fire on them for 4 seconds (max 320 damage + I think 80 ? more from the oil)
oil them again
toss the bomb thing on them
regular attack


I could only do this to squishy heroes because I'd be dead before I even got the bomb off on them.

He seemed like a very good farmer because of the oil, and his mana was always full, but he seemed either just kind of crappy, or needing an advanced level player to make any good use of him.

He needs a coordinated team. If you watch a pro game, the bat will initiate a team fight buy popping firefly and blinking into the enemy team, he will lasso a hero and then fly/be forcestaffed back into his own team, dragging the enemy hero who gets killed before they can do anything. The resulting fight is then 5 v 4.

He is also very powerful because he is still very good in ganks/small skirmishes and is very flexible (can offlane, jungle or mid).