"the war on terror" represents a massive misunderstanding of Islamic culture and history

[sandorski]

Good posts JacobJ. :beer:

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
following 9/11 al qaida was seen as an ostracized, fledgling group. since then, our ignoring them and instead choosing to send our resources to iraq has made them a global brand, making them mainstream.

nor does it help that bush's imcompetence gave them $500 million and 700,000 lbs explosives in the last year alone

US --> 9/11
indonesia --> bali
spain -->madrid
iraq --> iraq
russia --> school & 2 planes

dont forgte Israel and India, which might be the countries that have suffered the most casualties by muslim terrorists over the past few decades

here, read this dumbass:
Link
Link
Link

You're such a buffoon, I am surprised those around you think of you as a human

 

[0roo0roo]

http://prophetofdoom.net/

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: jjzelinski

Originally posted by: glenn1

Good Christ man, is it at all possible that you and your like minded friends can just sit on your porches in rocking chairs and just stroke your shotguns and cans of schlitz for the next week or two? I swear I saw one of those teenage kids runnin through yer corn field bout an hour ago...

Okay, let's try it from the other end then, maybe you'll finally understand and have a clue.

We learn everything there is to know about "root causes" and the reasons terrorists give for blowing sh!t up. Now you have two choices. First, you can do something to address those root causes, in which case the terrorists got what they wanted. Or you can ignore their demands to address their "root causes," which is what our stated government policy is now. The only reason to even want to learn about their root causes is so you can more easily take option 1, otherwise you wouldn't give a sh!t what the terrorists wanted.

Therefore we're back to my first post. If you're a Muslim but not a terrorist, then I don't give a sh!t whether you hate us since you're not blowing up school buses. If you are a terrorist then I don't give a sh!t about your reasons either because whatever they are, I'm not going to accomodate them. So tell me again why it's so f**ing important to know why the Muslims hate us?

BECAUSE, G-money, you can't BOMB an ideology.

lol Best reply ever.

 

[0roo0roo]

does it matter what the root causes of germanys turn to nazi ideology was? we must understand these nazi's!
the culture of the middle east has been corrupt for a long time, it has been easily ignored because of the black gold they possess. if only the nazi's had oil and weren't so trigger happy the pathology of people who dance in the street when civilians are targeted and killed on a massive scale like in 9/11 is one of incredible religious hatred and bigotry. the rabidly religious intolerant foundation of their beliefs is the prism which they view everything through. for decades they have corrupted generation after generation with hatred, from school books to official media to religious leaders. the only reason this is overlooked and tacitly accepted today is because it is done under the guise of religion, and we can't touch that hot potato. under any other guise this corruption would be plainly unacceptable. like the nazi ideology, this religious superiority lets them dehumanizing all others, allowing them to justify absolutely anything in the name of their ideology. it is all understood to be defending their religion, and as "victims" anything just justifiable. understanding does nothing if you are just going to appease the corruption in order to be liked. its like trying to understand the culture of the klansman so you can avoid offending him. by doing that you corrupt yourself.

and please, don't talk of oppression, the muslim rulers have had their fair share of oppressing others. and they are ever so willing to play the victims when they are not allowed to their rightful rule of oppressing all those inferior infidels.


not all ideologies are the same. to pretend they are equal is to deny reason.

islam is simply very likely to result in slides towards sharia law and violence. there really isnt much in either the koran or haddith to prevent such slides towards fanatism, for that is at its very clear core. from its founder who was a ruler and conquerer, to its more direct word of god text which takes away any real space for interpretation. its all inclusiveness and clarity leaves moderates desperately splitting hairs. the intolerance on each page is rather disturbing, and for people not of the book*jewschristians) its even worse. it looks for victory(conversion or death for all non muslims) here on earth. and all that bs about war only in defense is just niave. killing infidels is very easily called the defense of islam. muslims who do hold a view of peace only do so by ignoring large portions of their religion.

religious correctness is the new political correctness. can't call a spade a spade.


sam harris's new book "end of faith" has a chapter on islam too. very disturbing.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
http://prophetofdoom.net/

Be very scared of me then... I am in America to kill you all. :shocked:


:roll: You're a stupid oaf

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Muslim's don't hate us for our values, they hate us for what we do.

As an American in reply to the muslims of the world: I don't give a f#ck why you hate us. It's utterly immaterial to me. You had generations and untold wealth to create a bit better lives for yourselves and instead you turned the focus of your lives into fetishing death and demonizing Jews. The U.S. couldn't possibly screw things up more in your world than you have yourselves, so your whining about us occupying Iraq doesn't move me in the slightest. Even as bad as we're screwing things up over there it's still serving as a disinfectant compared to what you've done to yourselves.

I am happy I am free from living with such hate in my heart. You must realize, that not everyone we've ever fought was a demon. Most of them are scared kids whose country told them they needed them, sound familiar, it should.

One example of a falshood you are preaching is that they have had countless wealth on which to build better lives, you forget one very important point. They have lived under monarchies, theocracies, and such that have kept people poor. These are flesh and blood people you and your kind are dropping bombs on, and if you don't care, then my friend, you have a hate filled heart. And it will give out on you someday.

As for the Jews, when they offer the olive branch in one hand, and don't have their gun in the other, then I'll support Israel with all my heart. Someone has to admit to being wrong and be the bigger man. Beit Palestinians, or Israelis. Sinking to someone else's level never solves anything.

 

[imported_Condor]

I understand that there are good Muslims and bad ones. The good ones are the ones who are preaching moderation and human kindness as well as fighting against the bad ones. When we have incredibly bad people do incredibly bad things, we take care of business and solve our own problems. No one has to intervene.

My understanding is that Palestinians lost their land because they fought with Hitler in trying to exterminate the Jews in WWII. Since then, they have tried everything to force the Jews off the land that was taken from them. This is just the latest effort and them being in refugee camps just gives the really bad guys another excuse to kill without regard to international law or the suffering they cause. The Jews built an oasis from a desert, the Palestinians built an overpopulated slum from the same desert.

 

[Sultan]

Ok, all you mental retards, stop with Islam/Muslim bashing. To me - a Muslim immigrant, it just seems that Americans need a common enemy every few years. Prior to your Islamophobia, all of you were perpetually in fear of the Red Army/Communism. Do you all not have better things to do that stir up hatred based on wild theories and premises that even I as a Muslim have never, ever heard?

You can quote all sorts of historical precedences where nations of Muslim majority have acted out in (by your perception) uncivilized manner, or supported acts of terrorism. No country, race, religion is free from its bad elements. The United States ITSELF is committing an act of terror in Iraq. So the difference is we use million dollar weapons, while the opposite side uses human bombs. I'd say the opposite side has move conviction and valor than our forces because they are fighting to free the land of an occupier.

For those who pull out the Palestine/Israel conflict, it is almost laughable how you all blame one side while the other is portrayed as the saint. For those who dont know history, Israel has OCCUPIED Palestine land. The Palestinians have been fighting to regain their occupied land. If a Palestinian straps on a bomb on his body and blows himself up in a cafe, there's an IDF "soldier" who shoots a 13 year old unarmed girl, and then proceeds to "confirm" the kill. Both sides have been at fault, but no, if anyone says something about Israel, he/she is an anti-Semite, but if a Muslim tries to defend his/her religion and people, they're terrorists apologists :roll:

And for those cretins who keep pointing to 9/11, that act was committed by NINETEEN people. There are over 7 million Muslims in the US of A. Have they rammed planes into buildings since they've moved to this country? Or committed an act of violence or terror? Oh, but they're "good" Muslims who are moderate and preach human kindness and blah blah blah. The "bad" Muslims preach hatred and violence. This may come as a shocker to you, but bad people preach violence and hatred, not members of a certain race or religion.

Lastly, regarding those who keep pointing most terrorists are Muslims, but the last time I check the world history, Muslims were more terrorised than any other people of any other religion. Lets start counting the regions where Muslims have suffered tremendously:
* Afghanistan - Soviet occupation for years, over a MILLION killed, subsequent sanctions leading to complete degeneration of infrastructure, widespread poverty, poorest nation in the world. Afghans dead
* Chechnya - Small little republic, Russian forces have FLATTENED Grozny, troops routinely rape women, torture is common, read www.bbcnews.com Chechnyan dead
* Bosnia - There's another thread with information about 7,000 Muslims were massacred at Srebrenica. thread Many more were killed. There's videos about Serbian soldier playing football (soccer) with a child's head they just cut off, in front of his mother.
* Iraq - The clearest example of American terror, where we spin the events to portray Iraqi people as terrorists, people like Moqtada Al Sadr. 10000+ civilians killed by estimates. If this is not terror, I dont know how YOU all define it. I never even heard of Zarqawi before this invasion. And hey, now he's the terrorist.
* Palestine - people downtrodden by an occupied force for over 50 years. Without absolving them of the blame, they have received more than enough of punishment from the Israeli government in the past 50+ years. In the last 4 years alone, over 3000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel/IDF. I dont think all 3000 were suicide bombers.
* Kashmir - According to former State Minister of Kashmir, Farooq Abdullah?s 1996 statement estimated 50,000 killings "since the beginning of the uprising." People have still never been given the right to exercise their freedom of choice, and approximately 600000 Indian soldiers are stationed in Kashmir.

So in the past 20 years alone, over a million Muslims have been killed. So who is the terrorist now?

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
following 9/11 al qaida was seen as an ostracized, fledgling group. since then, our ignoring them and instead choosing to send our resources to iraq has made them a global brand, making them mainstream.

nor does it help that bush's imcompetence gave them $500 million and 700,000 lbs explosives in the last year alone

US --> 9/11
indonesia --> bali
spain -->madrid
iraq --> iraq
russia --> school & 2 planes

dont forgte Israel and India, which might be the countries that have suffered the most casualties by muslim terrorists over the past few decades

here, read this dumbass:
Link
Link
Link

You're such a buffoon, I am surprised those around you think of you as a human

actually, your a moron:

what you gave me was a bunch of bs linking bs websites. you got no credibility. keep those conspiracy theories to yourself

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
following 9/11 al qaida was seen as an ostracized, fledgling group. since then, our ignoring them and instead choosing to send our resources to iraq has made them a global brand, making them mainstream.

nor does it help that bush's imcompetence gave them $500 million and 700,000 lbs explosives in the last year alone

US --> 9/11
indonesia --> bali
spain -->madrid
iraq --> iraq
russia --> school & 2 planes

dont forgte Israel and India, which might be the countries that have suffered the most casualties by muslim terrorists over the past few decades

here, read this dumbass:
Link
Link
Link

You're such a buffoon, I am surprised those around you think of you as a human

actually, your a moron:

what you gave me was a bunch of bs linking bs websites. you got no credibility. keep those conspiracy theories to yourself

actually, you're a dumbass AND a buffoon.

Are you denying Rachel Corrie was mudered? Are you denying a CIA-organized coup overthrew the democratically elected and progressive government of Jacobo Arbenz? Are you denying Vietnam and MyLai never happened?

Are you denying the Indian governments quelling of the Sikh uprising and the Muslim massacre in Gujurat not even 3 years ago?

Are you denying that Israel has not targetted civilians - in Sabra, Shatilla and even more recently, Jenin?

Add the title of cretin to the list of your intellectual awards.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

You know, you're right. We should find Osama bin Laden, sit down, have a chat and some nice Camel-hair tea, and give him a hug. Apparently we just aren't *sensitive* enough. I'm sure that if we just let him understand thatwe love and respect him he'll stop sending his insane minions to blow us to smithereens!

Jason

Originally posted by: JacobJ
First of all, I am vastly uneducated about this issue. I have very little understanding of Middle East history, culture, religion, and values. However, I assert that the vast majority of Americans share a similar lack of understanding. We just don't understand.

Robert Mcnmarra, the architect of the Vietnam war, said we lost the Vietman war becuase we did not understand Vietnam history. Vietnam had a history of being occupied, and it created a dynamic that made them percieve our occupation as very negative no matter what our intentions were.

How do the Iraqi's percieve our occupation? How does the rest of the Muslim world? After 9/11, 75% OF the people of Indonesia supported the United States. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world. Right now, less than 10% of Indonesians support the US. (I was relayed these numbers in a speech by nobel laureate Bobby Mueller.) Right now, the majority of Pakistani's support Osama Bin Laden and are sympathetic to the Taliban. Paksistan has over thirty nuclear warheads. Its president has been nearly assasinated multiple times.

Muslims in the Middle East don't like us because they believe our invasion in Iraq is an assault against the muslim world itself. Their perceptions are much different than our perceptions. A majority of Saudis believe that if Kerry is elected he will bomb Riad within months. It is an absurd thought, but they believe it!

What is the war on terror? Who is fighting and why? Right now, the middle east is in turmoil. It is sorting out how to organize itself. Will it become more secular, or less? When we say we want to invade Iraq in order to give them democracy, what we are really doing is saying we want them to make a choice between democracy or complete chaos. The problem is, it is not up to us to decide what choices they should make. It should be up to them. Furthermore, what we think we are doing is vastly different than what they think we are doing. How is "terrorism" different than our policy of preemptive wars? Thousands and thousands of civilans have been killed because of US military action. Are we better because our morals are better? It doesn't matter! It is not our morals that is being judged, it is our actions.

People in the Middle East see our invasion of Iraq, they see multitudes of civilians being killed, they see us torturing people. They see us supporting Israel in oppressing the Palestinians. They see us supporting corrupt regimes in places like saudi arabia. We might see these things differently, but that does not make them better. Our actions have caused multitudes of unnecessary deaths. We might find them justifiable, but the people that would attack us do not see them as justifiable. The middle east has a history of being invaded and opressed by Christians, why would they see this time as being any different? The only way the war in Iraq could be successful is by convincing millions and millions of people that our intentions are not evil. That is a nearly impossible task. That is why the first George Bush did not occupy Iraq. The Iraq war is a war that is nearly impossible to win.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

I love brutal honesty You go, dude!

Jason

Originally posted by: glenn1

Muslim's don't hate us for our values, they hate us for what we do.

As an American in reply to the muslims of the world: I don't give a f#ck why you hate us. It's utterly immaterial to me. You had generations and untold wealth to create a bit better lives for yourselves and instead you turned the focus of your lives into fetishing death and demonizing Jews. The U.S. couldn't possibly screw things up more in your world than you have yourselves, so your whining about us occupying Iraq doesn't move me in the slightest. Even as bad as we're screwing things up over there it's still serving as a disinfectant compared to what you've done to yourselves.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

So you're saying that we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't, right?

You're probably right.

Jason

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
following 9/11 al qaida was seen as an ostracized, fledgling group. since then, our ignoring them and instead choosing to send our resources to iraq has made them a global brand, making them mainstream.

It is true. Osama Bin Laden has become the leader of a popular movement. If we begin to understand the perceptions of people in the middle east, I don't think it will be very difficult to understand why he is so popular. This a very worrying situation, one that I think the reelection of George W. Bush would make worse, and the election of John Keryy will not make any better.

 

[faiznne]

All I can say is... go to this thread, download the video clip:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...6888&enterthread=y

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
So you're saying that we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't, right?

You're probably right.

Jason

No...I'm saying we're extremely damned if we elect GWB...but we're just plain damned if we elect John Kerry. The situation has gotten past the tipping point. Either candidate can not solve the situation without serious costs. GWB seems to not understand the situation and would therefore make it much worse. His rhetoric almost constantly reflects a misunderstanding of Muslim perceptions of American actions and values.

 

[piasabird]

I think it may be misleading that some people that since there are a lot of terrorists, so all muslims hate Americans and want to kill us. Probably a good percentage want our money and our goods but dont want us ruling them or trying to run their lives. They have had this from people from france and and the british and different places and they are tired of all the Mistreatment by Westerners. They are also tired of mistreatment and the Tyrany of their own leaders.

No one in their right mind would have thought that the extremists would have been peaceful after we invaded Iraq. The whole concept is absurd.

They only thing they know is death and destruction and brute force.